Ole Klean was right all along about the F-35

[mrklean]

Alex Lockie,Business Inside

Lockheed Martin announced the F-35 program in 2001. Since then, hundreds of billions of dollars and 15 years of testing have brought the program to where it is today — on the verge of becoming the world's premier fighter/bomber and the future of the US Air Force, Marines, and Navy.

But while the idea of launching a single advanced stealthy plane for multiple service branches seemed good on paper, and ultimately won approval from US military planners at the highest level, it was never the only option.

Former US Navy commander and aviator Chris Harmer, also a senior naval analyst for the Middle East Security Project at the Institute for the Study of War, told Business Insider that the F-35 only really held a single advantage over the Cold War-era legacy aircraft it's set to replace: stealth.

"The F-35 is very capable in a very specific way," Harmer said. "The only thing it does that legacy can't do is stealth."

Indeed, the F-35's low observability and integrated stealth design are central to the plane's mission and tactics. Throughout its development, the F-35 notoriously lost to older legacy fighters in up-close dogfights. Combat-aviation expert Justin Bronk told Business Insider flat-out that the F-35 could "never in a million years" win a dogfight with an advanced Russian or British plane.

Defense officials never planned for the F-35 to revolutionize dogfighting, however; they instead wanted to change aerial combat as a whole. The F-35, nearly impossible for enemy aircraft to spot, is designed to shoot down foes from long distance before they're ever close enough to really dogfight.

But according to Harmer, who has spent much of his life around carrier-based aircraft, the F-35's advantages begin and end with stealth. Harmer suggests that instead of building the F-35, the US simply should have updated existing aircraft, like the F-15, the F-16, and the F-18.

These platforms — proven, legacy aircraft — could be retrofit with the advanced avionics and helmet for targeting that set the F-35 apart.

"For a fraction of the cost for F-35 development, we could have updated legacy aircraft and gotten a significant portion of the F-35 capabilities." Harmer said. The F-18 for example, has already undergone extensive reworkings, and the F-18 Super Hornet, which is 25% larger than the original F-18, has a smaller radar cross section than its predecessor and is one of the US's cheaper planes to buy and operate.

But an F-15, the Air Force's air-dominance fighter, with fifth-generation avionics and targeting capability, still lacks the integrated stealth design of an F-35. Stealth must be worked into the geometry of the plane and simply won't do as an afterthought. In today's contested battle spaces, a legacy fighter, no matter how you update it, still lights up brightly and clearly on an enemy radar and is therefore less survivable to the pilots — something US military planners have refused to accept.

"The only advantage of the F-35 is to go into highly contested airspace," Harmer said, adding that the US had "literally never done that." Additionally, the US already has another fifth-generation aircraft with an even better stealth in its inventory: the F-22. In fact, when the US does discuss operations in the world's most contested airspaces, it's the F-22 it talks about sending.

"There are other, less expensive ways to address highly contested airspace — cruise missiles, standoff weapons, radar jamming," Harmer added.

But the F-35 ship has sailed. Despite a very troublesome development, the program is now at or very near readiness with all three branches.

"As a practical matter, the F-35 is a done deal; we've incurred the 'sunk cost' of the R & D, and neither the USAF or USMC has any intentions of buying any more legacy airframes."

[Ibanez]

You're 1 of thousands of people that are right about the F-35. The club isn't as exclusive as you would think.

I agree that it was poorly managed (From the people that I knew when I was at the PO, it's not hard to see why) and once you get that faucet open from the US Taxpayer, you don't want it shut off.

[ASUG8]

The F-35 was designed to be a Swiss army knife type of jet - it can provide close air support, it can deliver standoff weapons, and infiltrate enemy defenses as a stealth bomber. Think a stealthy A-10 with supersonic F117 capabilities and the standoff capability of an F22. Pricey, but multifunctional.

Close air support - F35 >= A10
Standoff - F35 > FA/18, F-16, F-15
Stealth - F35 > FA/18, F-16, F-15
Dogfighting - F35 < FA/18, F-16, F-15 (although the next war won't involve this IMO)
Cost - F35 >>>>>>>>>>> FA/18, F-16, F-15

[93henfan]

The F-35 is a plane that is too generic for the Air Force and too fancy for the Navy and Marine Corps. It was supposed to appeal to everybody and instead appealed to nobody. It's the hooker at the bukake party when you aren't the first man in. Sounded like a great idea at first, but you don't really want to touch it now.

An expensive lesson learned.

[93henfan]

The F-35 was designed to be a Swiss army knife type of jet - it can provide close air support, it can deliver standoff weapons, and infiltrate enemy defenses as a stealth bomber. Think a stealthy A-10 with supersonic F117 capabilities and the standoff capability of an F22. Pricey, but multifunctional.

Close air support - F35 >= A10
Standoff - F35 > FA/18, F-16, F-15
Stealth - F35 > FA/18, F-16, F-15
Dogfighting - F35 < FA/18, F-16, F-15 (although the next war won't involve this IMO)
Cost - F35 >>>>>>>>>>> FA/18, F-16, F-15

And you skipped the most expensive aspect of all: VSTOL, where the AV8B wins. The AV8B sucks once it's off the ship though. I know because I directed them.

[ASUG8]

And you skipped the most expensive aspect of all: VSTOL, where the AV8B wins. The AV8B sucks once it's off the ship though. I know because I directed them.

From what I read the F35 will win vs. AV8B due to weapons load, combat radius, supersonic, etc. Again, very pricey for what you get, but the Harrier has become a dinosaur IMO.

[Ibanez]

The F-35 was designed to be a Swiss army knife type of jet - it can provide close air support, it can deliver standoff weapons, and infiltrate enemy defenses as a stealth bomber. Think a stealthy A-10 with supersonic F117 capabilities and the standoff capability of an F22. Pricey, but multifunctional.

Close air support - F35 >= A10
Standoff - F35 > FA/18, F-16, F-15
Stealth - F35 > FA/18, F-16, F-15
Dogfighting - F35 < FA/18, F-16, F-15 (although the next war won't involve this IMO)
Cost - F35 >>>>>>>>>>> FA/18, F-16, F-15

I think that was where the DoD hoped to even out the costs was with the F35 coming online and all the USAFs A-10s and F-16s, USNs F/A-18s, USMCs AV-8B Harriers and F/A-18s, and the UK Harrier GR7s and Sea Harriers coming offline.

The C-17 was a boondoggle but I feel the F-35 has surpassed it.

[CAA Flagship]

The F-35 is a plane that is too generic for the Air Force and too fancy for the Navy and Marine Corps. It was supposed to appeal to everybody and instead appealed to nobody. It's the hooker at the bukake party when you aren't the first man in. Sounded like a great idea at first, but you don't really want to touch it now.

An expensive lesson learned.

Wait. What does the hooker look like?

[mrklean]

I TOLD YOU SO

[93henfan]

I TOLD YOU SO

Can we send you $20 or a tub of KFC or something to get you to STFU about it? We get it man. Nobody here wanted the F-35 or disagrees with you.

[93henfan]

The F-35 is a plane that is too generic for the Air Force and too fancy for the Navy and Marine Corps. It was supposed to appeal to everybody and instead appealed to nobody. It's the hooker at the bukake party when you aren't the first man in. Sounded like a great idea at first, but you don't really want to touch it now.

An expensive lesson learned.

Wait. What does the hooker look like?

I forget. It was in Myrtle Beach. That's all I remember.

[CID1990]

The F-35 was designed to be a Swiss army knife type of jet - it can provide close air support, it can deliver standoff weapons, and infiltrate enemy defenses as a stealth bomber. Think a stealthy A-10 with supersonic F117 capabilities and the standoff capability of an F22. Pricey, but multifunctional.

Close air support - F35 >= A10
Standoff - F35 > FA/18, F-16, F-15
Stealth - F35 > FA/18, F-16, F-15
Dogfighting - F35 < FA/18, F-16, F-15 (although the next war won't involve this IMO)
Cost - F35 >>>>>>>>>>> FA/18, F-16, F-15

And you skipped the most expensive aspect of all: VSTOL, where the AV8B wins. The AV8B sucks once it's off the ship though. I know because I directed them.

Did you know that a fully loaded F-18 has a shorter takeoff roll than a fully loaded AV-8B?

True story. My uncle was the VMFA 451 swuadron commander and he's funny as hell to listen to when he rants about the Harrier (or any fighter that has just one engine, for that matter)

[mrklean]

I TOLD YOU SO

Can we send you $20 or a tub of KFC or something to get you to STFU about it? We get it man. Nobody here wanted the F-35 or disagrees with you.

I told your bitch azz about this two years ago

[Ibanez]

Can we send you $20 or a tub of KFC or something to get you to STFU about it? We get it man. Nobody here wanted the F-35 or disagrees with you.

I told your bitch azz about this two years ago

For someone with 2 Masters Degrees, you sure have trouble with reading comprehension.

NOBODY HERE DISAGREES WITH YOU.

[93henfan]

And you skipped the most expensive aspect of all: VSTOL, where the AV8B wins. The AV8B sucks once it's off the ship though. I know because I directed them.

Did you know that a fully loaded F-18 has a shorter takeoff roll than a fully loaded AV-8B?

True story. My uncle was the VMFA 451 swuadron commander and he's funny as hell to listen to when he rants about the Harrier (or any fighter that has just one engine, for that matter)

Our biggest worry, especially in the close battle space, was that our Harriers had poor air to air radar capability and we on the ground had none at all. We frequently handed them over to the FAC(A) if one was on station or to a section of Hornets to deconflict. Talk about pucker factor.

[mrklean]

I told your bitch azz about this two years ago

For someone with 2 Masters Degrees, you sure have trouble with reading comprehension.

NOBODY HERE DISAGREES WITH YOU.

So do you agree with the Waste of Tax Payer money. 1.5 Trillion dollars worth of waste
This money could have been used to upgrade the F-15,16 and 18, as well as the A-10.

[93henfan]

For someone with 2 Masters Degrees, you sure have trouble with reading comprehension.

NOBODY HERE DISAGREES WITH YOU.

So do you agree with the Waste of Tax Payer money. 1.5 Trillion dollars worth of waste
This money could have been used to upgrade the F-15,16 and 18, as well as the A-10.

[Ibanez]

For someone with 2 Masters Degrees, you sure have trouble with reading comprehension.

NOBODY HERE DISAGREES WITH YOU.

So do you agree with the Waste of Tax Payer money. 1.5 Trillion dollars worth of waste
This money could have been used to upgrade the F-15,16 and 18, as well as the A-10.

Yes. How many times must we say we agree?

[Ivytalk]

I told your bitch azz about this two years ago

For someone with 2 Masters Degrees, you sure have trouble with reading comprehension.

NOBODY HERE DISAGREES WITH YOU.

I thought it was two Associates degrees.

[mrklean]

For someone with 2 Masters Degrees, you sure have trouble with reading comprehension.

NOBODY HERE DISAGREES WITH YOU.

I thought is was two Associates degrees.

I bet you did

[Ibanez]

For someone with 2 Masters Degrees, you sure have trouble with reading comprehension.

NOBODY HERE DISAGREES WITH YOU.

I thought it was two Associates degrees.

Doesn't that equal 1 Bachelors?

[Ivytalk]

I thought it was two Associates degrees.

Doesn't that equal 1 Bachelors?

It equals 6.93 high school diplomas.