Faith in Markets Broke the Economy

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Faith in Markets Broke the Economy

Post by kalm »

Some very interesting stuff in here regarding the history of economics, social order, and an Ivyesque line about “prestidigitation, double shuffling, honey-fugling, hornswaggling, and skullduggery”. :)

Important, big picture questions, and well worth the read.
A little more than a generation ago, a stealthy revolution swept America. It was a dual changing of the guard: Two tribes, two attitudes, two approaches to a good society were simultaneously displaced by upstart rivals. In the world of business, the manufacturing bosses gave way to Wall Street dealmakers, bent on breaking up their empires. “Organization Man,” as the journalist William H. Whyte had christened the corporate archetype in his 1956 book, was ousted by “Transaction Man,” to cite Nicholas Lemann’s latest work of social history. In the world of public policy, lawyers who counted on large institutions to deliver prosperity and social harmony lost influence. In their place rose quantitative thinkers who put their faith in markets. It was The Economists’ Hour, as the title of the New York Times editorial writer Binyamin Appelbaum’s debut book has it.

Together, Lemann and Appelbaum contribute to the second wave of post-2008 commentary. The first postmortems focused narrowly on the global financial crisis, dissecting the distorted incentives, regulatory frailty, and groupthink that caused bankers to blow up the world economy. The new round of analysis broadens the lens, searching out larger political and intellectual wrong turns, an expansion that reflects the morphing of the 2008 crash into a general populist surge. By excavating history, Lemann and Appelbaum remind us that Transaction Man and his economist allies were not always ascendant, and that they won’t necessarily remain so. This frees both writers to ask whether an alternative social contract might be imaginable, or preferable.................


At the close of his book, Appelbaum presents a series of persuasive recommendations, confirming that Lemann is wrong to despair of reasoned, technocratic argument. If policy makers want ordinary Americans to appreciate the benefits of open trade, they must ensure that displaced workers have access to training and health care. Because some interest groups are weaker than others, government should correct the double standard by which the power of labor unions is regarded with antipathy but the power of business monopolies is tolerated. Well-heeled professional cartels, such as associations of real-estate agents who extract 6 percent commissions from hapless home sellers, should be eyed with suspicion. Progressives should look for ways to be pro-competition but anti-inequality.

Yet however reasonable Appelbaum’s arguments, readers are also left with a question about the future. Although he sets out to write the story of the economists’ hour—an hour that he thinks ended in 2008—it isn’t so clear that the economists have departed. They may not have the ear of populists, but their resilience shouldn’t be underrated. Indeed, throughout Appelbaum’s narrative, many of the knights who slay the dragons of bad economic ideology are economists themselves. The story of the past generation is more about debates among economists than about economists pitted against laypeople. Perhaps, with a bit of humility and retooling, the economists will have their day again. If they do not come up with the next set of good ideas, it is not obvious who will.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... UO2BnNzA2Y
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Re: Faith in Markets Broke the Economy

Post by CAA Flagship »

I don't know what I just read ^^^^. :?
And I didn't open the link to read more of that word soup.

What's the bottom line?
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Re: Faith in Markets Broke the Economy

Post by GannonFan »

If policy makers want ordinary Americans to appreciate the benefits of open trade, they must ensure that displaced workers have access to training and health care.
That's been the biggest stumbling block for free trade and the one that has to get solved. Free trade is not going back in the box, and we should dread the world that we'd be in if free trade did go back in the box (nationalism run amok, kalmian tariffs in the place everywhere, and in that political and economic environment I think you'd see a lot more resorting to armed conflict on a larger scale). But the issue is that free trade has left too many people behind - some due to their own faults or failings, but some just because we haven't provided enough of a backstop. Fix that, and I think we're there.
Because some interest groups are weaker than others, government should correct the double standard by which the power of labor unions is regarded with antipathy but the power of business monopolies is tolerated.
This one I don't buy as much. The antipathy of the power of labor unions today is two-fold - one because the vast majority of labor unions today are in the government sector - public service unions are easy to draw the ire of the rest of the public because of the visibility and because of the direct perception that its our money that is being spent to support those unions, with little seemingly benefit to the public. The second issue is that unions, generally, have outlived their use. The days of child labor and environmental recklessness are generally gone - laws and systems are in place to protect that and the attitude of the general public would resist any backsliding in that regard. We don't need the Knights of Labor and that type now whereas they were needed even as recent as 40-50 years ago. It's outmoded and not needed now, hence the ire. And people will tolerate business monopolies as long as they feel they are getting something from them - people don't hate Apple or Google or Amazon because they think and feel they are benefiting from them in spite of their market dominance. Once and if that changes, those particular monopolies will not be tolerated.
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Re: Faith in Markets Broke the Economy

Post by CitadelGrad »

The problem with free trade is that it isn't free trade.
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Re: RE: Re: Faith in Markets Broke the Economy

Post by UNI88 »

GannonFan wrote:
If policy makers want ordinary Americans to appreciate the benefits of open trade, they must ensure that displaced workers have access to training and health care.
That's been the biggest stumbling block for free trade and the one that has to get solved. Free trade is not going back in the box, and we should dread the world that we'd be in if free trade did go back in the box (nationalism run amok, kalmian tariffs in the place everywhere, and in that political and economic environment I think you'd see a lot more resorting to armed conflict on a larger scale). But the issue is that free trade has left too many people behind - some due to their own faults or failings, but some just because we haven't provided enough of a backstop. Fix that, and I think we're there.
Because some interest groups are weaker than others, government should correct the double standard by which the power of labor unions is regarded with antipathy but the power of business monopolies is tolerated.
This one I don't buy as much. The antipathy of the power of labor unions today is two-fold - one because the vast majority of labor unions today are in the government sector - public service unions are easy to draw the ire of the rest of the public because of the visibility and because of the direct perception that its our money that is being spent to support those unions, with little seemingly benefit to the public. The second issue is that unions, generally, have outlived their use. The days of child labor and environmental recklessness are generally gone - laws and systems are in place to protect that and the attitude of the general public would resist any backsliding in that regard. We don't need the Knights of Labor and that type now whereas they were needed even as recent as 40-50 years ago. It's outmoded and not needed now, hence the ire. And people will tolerate business monopolies as long as they feel they are getting something from them - people don't hate Apple or Google or Amazon because they think and feel they are benefiting from them in spite of their market dominance. Once and if that changes, those particular monopolies will not be tolerated.
Ganny rocks it!

I will add that those left behind need to be more flexible. You have to be willing to go where the jobs are to support yourself and your family.

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Re: Faith in Markets Broke the Economy

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I believe an ancillary issue with unions is that the leadership in most became as corrupt as the business leaders they were formed to combat. Certainly not in all unions, but most of consequence, and that left a bad taste for a significant portion of Americans...
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Re: Faith in Markets Broke the Economy

Post by Ivytalk »

“Progressives should look for ways to be pro-competition but anti-inequality.” That’s the same question that bedeviled Berle and Means 80 years ago. Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose. Interesting piece.
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Re: Faith in Markets Broke the Economy

Post by dbackjon »

AZGrizFan wrote:I believe an ancillary issue with unions is that the leadership in most became as corrupt as the business leaders they were formed to combat. Certainly not in all unions, but most of consequence, and that left a bad taste for a significant portion of Americans...

And to reiterate the point made in the article, that you just touched on - if union leaders are just as corrupt as business leaders, why are only union leaders vilified, but business leaders glorified?

When you elect a corrupt business leader to the Senate (Rick Scott, for example) but would be horrified if, say an alive Jimmy Hoffa became a Senator, why the distinction.
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Re: Faith in Markets Broke the Economy

Post by dbackjon »

GannonFan wrote:
This one I don't buy as much. The antipathy of the power of labor unions today is two-fold - one because the vast majority of labor unions today are in the government sector - public service unions are easy to draw the ire of the rest of the public because of the visibility and because of the direct perception that its our money that is being spent to support those unions, with little seemingly benefit to the public. The second issue is that unions, generally, have outlived their use. The days of child labor and environmental recklessness are generally gone - laws and systems are in place to protect that and the attitude of the general public would resist any backsliding in that regard. We don't need the Knights of Labor and that type now whereas they were needed even as recent as 40-50 years ago. It's outmoded and not needed now, hence the ire. And people will tolerate business monopolies as long as they feel they are getting something from them - people don't hate Apple or Google or Amazon because they think and feel they are benefiting from them in spite of their market dominance. Once and if that changes, those particular monopolies will not be tolerated.

This is not true. It was tamped down to some extent, but very much in play under the Trump Admin. The outright hostility of the Trump Admin (and the GOP in general) to the environment and worker safety shows that the gains made are very fragile indeed.
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Re: Faith in Markets Broke the Economy

Post by AZGrizFan »

dbackjon wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:I believe an ancillary issue with unions is that the leadership in most became as corrupt as the business leaders they were formed to combat. Certainly not in all unions, but most of consequence, and that left a bad taste for a significant portion of Americans...

And to reiterate the point made in the article, that you just touched on - if union leaders are just as corrupt as business leaders, why are only union leaders vilified, but business leaders glorified?

When you elect a corrupt business leader to the Senate (Rick Scott, for example) but would be horrified if, say an alive Jimmy Hoffa became a Senator, why the distinction.
Please. Business leaders are continually vilified in today's world. Every. Single. Day. Particularly the extremely successful ones. :tothehand:
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Re: Faith in Markets Broke the Economy

Post by GannonFan »

dbackjon wrote:
GannonFan wrote:
This one I don't buy as much. The antipathy of the power of labor unions today is two-fold - one because the vast majority of labor unions today are in the government sector - public service unions are easy to draw the ire of the rest of the public because of the visibility and because of the direct perception that its our money that is being spent to support those unions, with little seemingly benefit to the public. The second issue is that unions, generally, have outlived their use. The days of child labor and environmental recklessness are generally gone - laws and systems are in place to protect that and the attitude of the general public would resist any backsliding in that regard. We don't need the Knights of Labor and that type now whereas they were needed even as recent as 40-50 years ago. It's outmoded and not needed now, hence the ire. And people will tolerate business monopolies as long as they feel they are getting something from them - people don't hate Apple or Google or Amazon because they think and feel they are benefiting from them in spite of their market dominance. Once and if that changes, those particular monopolies will not be tolerated.

This is not true. It was tamped down to some extent, but very much in play under the Trump Admin. The outright hostility of the Trump Admin (and the GOP in general) to the environment and worker safety shows that the gains made are very fragile indeed.
You're overplaying it severely, and I wonder if you even fathom the gains we've made versus back when unions were instrumental in the fight for the environment and worker safety. I live in the manufacturing sector, and have for 25 years. If you honestly think that the environment and worker safety are in jeopardy from this or any administration you're just playing the part of a partisan. OSHA isn't going anywhere, the EPA isn't going anywhere, the Clean Water Act isn't going anywhere, the NFPA isn't going anywhere, and so on. Those safeguards are there and even a buffoon like Trump won't be able to dislodge them. The big parts of what those things do are basically sacrosanct in industry and in the public's eye. What does get air time are the small, nibbling things that are what talked about when most of the work is done. Improvements now are marginal gains on what's been implemented. I'll grant you Climate Change is a big outlier and how we decide to deal with that isn't handled by the agencies and policies we have in place already, but that's also because the American public is undecided about what to do exactly regarding Climate Change. In the bigger picture, though, we're not in any danger to suddenly throw off the workplace and environmental standards and regulations that have been installed over the past 50-60 years no matter who is in the White House or what party controls Congress. Backsliding is not realistic.
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Re: Faith in Markets Broke the Economy

Post by dbackjon »

You are being naive if you think those things aren't in danger - Trump has already weakened the EPA and ESA, given so many exemptions to the Clean Water Act - basically whenever asked.

He has someone in charge of the Dept of Interior that doesn't believe in the EPA or ESA, the head of the BLM believes that all government land should be sold.
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Re: Faith in Markets Broke the Economy

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dbackjon wrote:You are being naive if you think those things aren't in danger - Trump has already weakened the EPA and ESA, given so many exemptions to the Clean Water Act - basically whenever asked.

He has someone in charge of the Dept of Interior that doesn't believe in the EPA or ESA, the head of the BLM believes that all government land should be sold.
And yet in spite of what the Secretary of the Interior and the head of BLM believe, those agencies are still in place and their core policies are still in force.

This is “Obama is going to take our guns” written a different way


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Re: Faith in Markets Broke the Economy

Post by AZGrizFan »

dbackjon wrote:You are being naive if you think those things aren't in danger - Trump has already weakened the EPA and ESA, given so many exemptions to the Clean Water Act - basically whenever asked.

He has someone in charge of the Dept of Interior that doesn't believe in the EPA or ESA, the head of the BLM believes that all government land should be sold.
Link to source please? :roll:
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Re: Faith in Markets Broke the Economy

Post by GannonFan »

CID1990 wrote:
dbackjon wrote:You are being naive if you think those things aren't in danger - Trump has already weakened the EPA and ESA, given so many exemptions to the Clean Water Act - basically whenever asked.

He has someone in charge of the Dept of Interior that doesn't believe in the EPA or ESA, the head of the BLM believes that all government land should be sold.
And yet in spite of what the Secretary of the Interior and the head of BLM believe, those agencies are still in place and their core policies are still in force.

This is “Obama is going to take our guns” written a different way


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Indeed. It doesn't matter which side of the aisle paranoia comes from, it doesn't matter if it's left or right, it's still in the end just paranoia. Despite all of the doomsaying that these federal agencies were going to crumble and disappear under Trump, they are still there, basically doing exactly what they were doing under Obama, and under Bush before him, and so on. Part of it is just government inertia, for sure, but the biggest part of it is that they are there because the public wants them there. There will always be quibbling over the details, especially with emergent technologies and markets, but the big question of do we need things like OSHA and the EPA have already been answered and it was thanks in part to the push and work of organized labor. That's not really needed as much anymore.
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