Bargaining With Fascists?

[kalm]

Guess they’re misnamed...

WASHINGTON — Nearly two decades ago, Stewart Rhodes won an award at Yale Law School for his paper arguing that the Bush administration's use of "enemy combatant" status to detain Americans indefinitely was unconstitutional.

Tolerating such a violation, he asserted, would be like leaving out "a loaded weapon — a perpetual threat to our liberties — to be picked up by the next overzealous, overconfident and willful president."

But in the weeks after the 2020 election, presidential overreach seemed far from his mind. In an open letter on the website of the Oath Keepers, the far-right militia group he founded in 2009, Rhodes urged President Donald Trump to invoke the Insurrection Act, send special forces to seize state elections systems, redo the election and deploy both the National Guard and a self-armed militia to suppress any rebellion from "domestic enemies" in the way.

"If you fail to do so, we the people will have to fight a bloody revolution/civil war to throw off an illegitimate deep state/Chinese puppet regime," he wrote.

In the days before the U.S. Capitol riot, he'd put out a call on the group's website for "all patriots who can be in DC" to travel to the capital for a "security mission" to "stand tall in support of President Trump's fight."

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politi ... 4TFVX10YKg

[AZGrizFan]

Guess they’re misnamed...

WASHINGTON — Nearly two decades ago, Stewart Rhodes won an award at Yale Law School for his paper arguing that the Bush administration's use of "enemy combatant" status to detain Americans indefinitely was unconstitutional.

Tolerating such a violation, he asserted, would be like leaving out "a loaded weapon — a perpetual threat to our liberties — to be picked up by the next overzealous, overconfident and willful president."

But in the weeks after the 2020 election, presidential overreach seemed far from his mind. In an open letter on the website of the Oath Keepers, the far-right militia group he founded in 2009, Rhodes urged President Donald Trump to invoke the Insurrection Act, send special forces to seize state elections systems, redo the election and deploy both the National Guard and a self-armed militia to suppress any rebellion from "domestic enemies" in the way.

"If you fail to do so, we the people will have to fight a bloody revolution/civil war to throw off an illegitimate deep state/Chinese puppet regime," he wrote.

In the days before the U.S. Capitol riot, he'd put out a call on the group's website for "all patriots who can be in DC" to travel to the capital for a "security mission" to "stand tall in support of President Trump's fight."

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politi ... 4TFVX10YKg

I’m not saying they don’t exist. But the couple hundred who came and entered did so mostly peacefully. The hundreds of thousands who came and DIDN’T enter did so 100% peacefully. And again, most who entered were invited in, walked through in an orderly line between the ropes, and then exited.

[Ibanez]

Guess they’re misnamed...



https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politi ... 4TFVX10YKg

I’m not saying they don’t exist. But the couple hundred who came and entered did so mostly peacefully. The hundreds of thousands who came and DIDN’T enter did so 100% peacefully. And again, most who entered were invited in, walked through in an orderly line between the ropes, and then exited.

I guess we shouldn't judge a group based on the actions of a small few.

[AZGrizFan]

I’m not saying they don’t exist. But the couple hundred who came and entered did so mostly peacefully. The hundreds of thousands who came and DIDN’T enter did so 100% peacefully. And again, most who entered were invited in, walked through in an orderly line between the ropes, and then exited.

I guess we shouldn't judge a group based on the actions of a small few.

Let's put it this way: a LOT smaller "few" got violent and broke the law in DC than have been in those "mostly peaceful" demonstrations going on around the country non-stop for the past 10 months.

[kalm]

I guess we shouldn't judge a group based on the actions of a small few.

Let's put it this way: a LOT smaller "few" got violent and broke the law in DC than have been in those "mostly peaceful" demonstrations going on around the country non-stop for the past 10 months.

Per capita?

[Ibanez]

I guess we shouldn't judge a group based on the actions of a small few.

Let's put it this way: a LOT smaller "few" got violent and broke the law in DC than have been in those "mostly peaceful" demonstrations going on around the country non-stop for the past 10 months.

I'm not sure that really matters. You break the law, you're 100% in the wrong - regardless if it's for MAGA or BLM.

[UNI88]

Let's put it this way: a LOT smaller "few" got violent and broke the law in DC than have been in those "mostly peaceful" demonstrations going on around the country non-stop for the past 10 months.

I'm not sure that really matters. You break the law, you're 100% in the wrong - regardless if it's for MAGA or BLM.

The "what they did was worse" argument is a rabbit hole of rationalization and deflection that avoids addressing the problems and divides that this country faces.

[AZGrizFan]

Let's put it this way: a LOT smaller "few" got violent and broke the law in DC than have been in those "mostly peaceful" demonstrations going on around the country non-stop for the past 10 months.

Per capita?

I’m just saying. The “insurrection” that y’all blather on and on about was so horrible and awful and terrible, the SAME people were able to be in the SAME chamber less than 3 hours later, completing their business. Must have really destroyed that place, eh? Are they doing business yet in downtown Minneapolis? Portland? Seattle? Kenosha? Atlanta?

[Ibanez]

Per capita?

I’m just saying. The “insurrection” that y’all blather on and on about was so horrible and awful and terrible, the SAME people were able to be in the SAME chamber less than 3 hours later, completing their business. Must have really destroyed that place, eh? Are they doing business yet in downtown Minneapolis? Portland? Seattle? Kenosha? Atlanta?

You are saying that because people could be back up and running within a 3 hours, that a crime isn't that bad. That's pretty dumb. You're trying to rationalize their behavior (and i'm not sure why you would). I think one thing we can all get behind is calling out people for breaking the law. Regardless of the politics, we should be able to be objective and say, " You trespassed, vandalized and looted a building. You're wrong."



That's some looney left nonsense, Tom. I expected more out of you. I'm not...just disappointed.

[kalm]

I’m just saying. The “insurrection” that y’all blather on and on about was so horrible and awful and terrible, the SAME people were able to be in the SAME chamber less than 3 hours later, completing their business. Must have really destroyed that place, eh? Are they doing business yet in downtown Minneapolis? Portland? Seattle? Kenosha? Atlanta?

You are saying that because people could be back up and running within a 3 hours, that a crime isn't that bad. That's pretty dumb. You're trying to rationalize their behavior (and i'm not sure why you would). I think one thing we can all get behind is calling out people for breaking the law. Regardless of the politics, we should be able to be objective and say, " You trespassed, vandalized and looted a building. You're wrong."



That's some looney left nonsense, Tom. I expected more out of you. I'm not...just disappointed.

The barometer is how serious to take each movement and there destructive threat based on violence to people, violence to property, and violence to our system of government. The number of participants, time to restore order, and political support are secondary.

The political right seems to diminish 1/6 as just a few followers without much support. The left does the same and ignores the sheer monetary damages alone.

[kalm]

This shouldn’t be that tough of a question to answer?

Three weeks after a mob stormed the U.S. Capitol and included a former Air Force officer who was captured on video holding zip ties inside the Senate chamber, the senior leaders of the U.S. Air Force Academy’s alumni association held a virtual meeting to discuss “key priorities.” But the arrest of Lt. Col. Larry R. Brock Jr. was not among them.

When pressed to condemn the Jan. 6 riots, retired Lt. Gen. Michael C. Gould, the Association of Graduates’ C.E.O., pointedly refused to do so on Thursday.

When asked by an attendee whether the majority of the group’s board of governors thought the attack on the Capitol was justified, Lieutenant General Gould, who served as the academy’s superintendent from June 2009 until his retirement from active duty in 2013, jokingly said, “That was an easy one.” But instead of offering a straight answer, General Gould indicated that board members had “emotions that went across the spectrum, and opinions and ideas.”

“We made it a point that we would stay totally apolitical, which is very important in what we do,” the general said. “And that we weren’t going to pick sides in any of this.”

General Gould said that the board of governors instead chose to release “a reminder of who we are, and not divide by leaning one way or another as to the events that happened, but to remind us, each other, of the oath we took to support and defend the Constitution.”

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/01/29 ... ce-academy

[Ibanez]

You are saying that because people could be back up and running within a 3 hours, that a crime isn't that bad. That's pretty dumb. You're trying to rationalize their behavior (and i'm not sure why you would). I think one thing we can all get behind is calling out people for breaking the law. Regardless of the politics, we should be able to be objective and say, " You trespassed, vandalized and looted a building. You're wrong."



That's some looney left nonsense, Tom. I expected more out of you. I'm not...just disappointed.

The barometer is how serious to take each movement and there destructive threat based on violence to people, violence to property, and violence to our system of government. The number of participants, time to restore order, and political support are secondary.

The political right seems to diminish 1/6 as just a few followers without much support. The left does the same and ignores the sheer monetary damages alone.

Take them serious and give no quarter.

If you want to protest, fine. Observe the local laws and don't hurt anyone or anything. The moment you cross that line, you're in the wrong and have no room to criticize others.

[kalm]

The barometer is how serious to take each movement and there destructive threat based on violence to people, violence to property, and violence to our system of government. The number of participants, time to restore order, and political support are secondary.

The political right seems to diminish 1/6 as just a few followers without much support. The left does the same and ignores the sheer monetary damages alone.

Take them serious and give no quarter.

If you want to protest, fine. Observe the local laws and don't hurt anyone or anything. The moment you cross that line, you're in the wrong and have no room to criticize others.

Agreed. The irony is that Antifa is a gift to the right and MGT is a gift to the left.

[BDKJMU]

Take them serious and give no quarter.

If you want to protest, fine. Observe the local laws and don't hurt anyone or anything. The moment you cross that line, you're in the wrong and have no room to criticize others.

Agreed. The irony is that Antifa is a gift to the right and MGT is a gift to the left.

Good to know that y'all agree that 99% of BLM/ANTIFA protests should be given no quarter (because almost all broke local/state laws- blocking of streets without permits for starters)...

[kalm]

Agreed. The irony is that Antifa is a gift to the right and MGT is a gift to the left.

Good to know that y'all agree that 99% of BLM/ANTIFA protests should be given no quarter (because almost all broke local/state laws- blocking of streets without permits for starters)...

I don't know if your percentage is accurate, but yes...if laws are broken there of course should be consequences. That's kind of how it's supposed to work.

[AZGrizFan]

Good to know that y'all agree that 99% of BLM/ANTIFA protests should be given no quarter (because almost all broke local/state laws- blocking of streets without permits for starters)...

I don't know if your percentage is accurate, but yes...if laws are broken there of course should be consequences. That's kind of how it's supposed to work.

Unless, of course the future VP funds their bail.

[AZGrizFan]

You are saying that because people could be back up and running within a 3 hours, that a crime isn't that bad. That's pretty dumb. You're trying to rationalize their behavior (and i'm not sure why you would). I think one thing we can all get behind is calling out people for breaking the law. Regardless of the politics, we should be able to be objective and say, " You trespassed, vandalized and looted a building. You're wrong."



That's some looney left nonsense, Tom. I expected more out of you. I'm not...just disappointed.

The barometer is how serious to take each movement and there destructive threat based on violence to people, violence to property, and violence to our system of government. The number of participants, time to restore order, and political support are secondary.

The political right seems to diminish 1/6 as just a few followers without much support. The left does the same and ignores the sheer monetary damages alone.

I couldn’t disagree more. If a mob the size of the ANTIFA or BLM mobs had stormed the Capitol building, burned it, set up an autonomous zone and forbade entry for 3 weeks, then we might be onto something. Instead, it was literally a few knuckleheads who, other than the act of actually entering the building, did very little in the form of actual violence. 1/6 WAS just a few followers without much support. Y’all act like a large, well armed, organized, militia entered the building, set up a perimeter and caused millions of dollars in damage. Realty: The vast, vast, vast majority of people there weren’t there to attempt an insurrection (although if you read this board and follow CNN, one might think otherwise). They were there to support their president, not riot.

[catbooster]

From the article:

"Why is that? Because their worldview is binary. Think back to Nietzsche, the intellectual godfather of fascism. His worldview was binary, too. You were were either a master or a slave, were strong or weak, an ubermensch or an underman, an overman or an underman. There was no gray area — which is what democracy and humanity are all about, finding the shades and nuances and differences, and appreciating their subtlety and hue and beauty.

This binary worldview is what fascists since that day have carried forward. Whether they know it or not is another question, but it’s there in Trumpism, and it’s easy to see. Either you’re a “real” American or you’re not, either you’re “legal” or you’re not, either you’re fetishistically devoted to Papa Trump, or you’re an “enemy of the people.” They either adore or hate. They have no capacity — none — to think, reason, contemplate, reflect. To say, “though you are different from me, I appreciate you all the more for just that reason.”
That is what makes a fascist.

Or one of the key things at any rate. The political message of all this violence is therefore to say: It is our way, or no way. It is us, or you. If you’re not one of us, you’re not really a human being at all — you are on the side of the subhumans, a “race traitor” or worse. Fascists want a society cleaved in two — a fanatical, hateful place, made of the weak and strong, the human and the subhuman, the pure and the impure, and everything in politics, institutions, agencies, associations, are to be devoted to that end."

That article perfectly describes ANTIFA as well. Ironic, no?

So you're agreeing with the article, but also pointing out that the other extreme is similarly guilty of binary thinking. I can get on board with that.

[kalm]

The barometer is how serious to take each movement and there destructive threat based on violence to people, violence to property, and violence to our system of government. The number of participants, time to restore order, and political support are secondary.

The political right seems to diminish 1/6 as just a few followers without much support. The left does the same and ignores the sheer monetary damages alone.

I couldn’t disagree more. If a mob the size of the ANTIFA or BLM mobs had stormed the Capitol building, burned it, set up an autonomous zone and forbade entry for 3 weeks, then we might be onto something. Instead, it was literally a few knuckleheads who, other than the act of actually entering the building, did very little in the form of actual violence. 1/6 WAS just a few followers without much support. Y’all act like a large, well armed, organized, militia entered the building, set up a perimeter and caused millions of dollars in damage. Realty: The vast, vast, vast majority of people there weren’t there to attempt an insurrection (although if you read this board and follow CNN, one might think otherwise). They were there to support their president, not riot.

Hmmm...sounds similar. A few anarchists ruined it for most of those people who were there to just support racial equality and peace.

[AZGrizFan]

I couldn’t disagree more. If a mob the size of the ANTIFA or BLM mobs had stormed the Capitol building, burned it, set up an autonomous zone and forbade entry for 3 weeks, then we might be onto something. Instead, it was literally a few knuckleheads who, other than the act of actually entering the building, did very little in the form of actual violence. 1/6 WAS just a few followers without much support. Y’all act like a large, well armed, organized, militia entered the building, set up a perimeter and caused millions of dollars in damage. Realty: The vast, vast, vast majority of people there weren’t there to attempt an insurrection (although if you read this board and follow CNN, one might think otherwise). They were there to support their president, not riot.

Hmmm...sounds similar. A few anarchists ruined it for most of those people who were there to just support racial equality and peace.

See, that’s the difference. It was waaaay more than a few and waaaaay longer than a couple hours.

Then again, maybe you don’t see.

[AZGrizFan]

That article perfectly describes ANTIFA as well. Ironic, no?

So you're agreeing with the article, but also pointing out that the other extreme is similarly guilty of binary thinking. I can get on board with that.

Exactly.

[UNI88]

The barometer is how serious to take each movement and there destructive threat based on violence to people, violence to property, and violence to our system of government. The number of participants, time to restore order, and political support are secondary.

The political right seems to diminish 1/6 as just a few followers without much support. The left does the same and ignores the sheer monetary damages alone.

I couldn’t disagree more. If a mob the size of the ANTIFA or BLM mobs had stormed the Capitol building, burned it, set up an autonomous zone and forbade entry for 3 weeks, then we might be onto something. Instead, it was literally a few knuckleheads who, other than the act of actually entering the building, did very little in the form of actual violence. 1/6 WAS just a few followers without much support. Y’all act like a large, well armed, organized, militia entered the building, set up a perimeter and caused millions of dollars in damage. Realty: The vast, vast, vast majority of people there weren’t there to attempt an insurrection (although if you read this board and follow CNN, one might think otherwise). They were there to support their president, not riot.

Using the number of rioters and the length of the riots to argue that the BLM/AnTiFa riots were worse is similar to Kalm using the riot occurred in the Capitol and tried to intimidate Congress into overturning the election argue that the Capitol riots were worse. They were all bad, should be condemned and participants prosecuted.

The "what they did was worse" argument is a rabbit hole of rationalization and deflection that avoids addressing the problems and divides that this country faces.

[kalm]

I couldn’t disagree more. If a mob the size of the ANTIFA or BLM mobs had stormed the Capitol building, burned it, set up an autonomous zone and forbade entry for 3 weeks, then we might be onto something. Instead, it was literally a few knuckleheads who, other than the act of actually entering the building, did very little in the form of actual violence. 1/6 WAS just a few followers without much support. Y’all act like a large, well armed, organized, militia entered the building, set up a perimeter and caused millions of dollars in damage. Realty: The vast, vast, vast majority of people there weren’t there to attempt an insurrection (although if you read this board and follow CNN, one might think otherwise). They were there to support their president, not riot.

Using the number of rioters and the length of the riots to argue that the BLM/AnTiFa riots were worse is similar to Kalm using the riot occurred in the Capitol and tried to intimidate Congress into overturning the election argue that the Capitol riots were worse. They were all bad, should be condemned and participants prosecuted.

The "what they did was worse" argument is a rabbit hole of rationalization and deflection that avoids addressing the problems and divides that this country faces.

I'll allow it...

`

[UNI88]

Using the number of rioters and the length of the riots to argue that the BLM/AnTiFa riots were worse is similar to Kalm using the riot occurred in the Capitol and tried to intimidate Congress into overturning the election to argue that the Capitol riots were worse. They were all bad, should be condemned and participants prosecuted.

I'll allow it...
`

Just trying to be consistent when I'm sitting here on the fence splitting your ball sacks.

[SDHornet]

Guess they’re misnamed...



https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politi ... 4TFVX10YKg

I’m not saying they don’t exist. But the couple hundred who came and entered did so mostly peacefully. The hundreds of thousands who came and DIDN’T enter did so 100% peacefully. And again, most who entered were invited in, walked through in an orderly line between the ropes, and then exited.

But was Kristallnacht mostly peaceful?