Here We Go Again (Minneapolis, MN)

[clenz]

BCPD policy states that they are worn on the other weak side of the body. The police chief confirmed yesterday. Also confirmed that she was a "very senior" member of the force and has undergone numerous trainings per year over their use. I have no doubt she intended to use her taser, but right now there should be some significant questions as to why she didn't realize she had her hand gun. It wasn't pulled in the moment. Body cam footage shows she had it out for a not-insignificant amount of time. The standard issue police pistol weighs approximately 34 ounces and has a handgun grip to it (as to be expected). Tasers are bright yellow, weigh 8 ounces (based on what I can find, just as with the pistol) and don't have the grip of a pistol.


Again, I'll go back to how it's now acceptable for police to lose their heads and kill someone because they got worked up to do the job they are supposed to do, yet citizens interacting with the police are expected to be 1000% calm at all times no matter what.

She may not have meant to kill him, but she did. You still get charged and go to jail for "not meaning too". She should be charged. She should go to jail.

I'm not sure how me saying that has twisted into this anti-cop or whatever Z is trying to make it.

She killed a man. We saw it happen. She should be treated as anyone else who killed someone, even if "didn't mean too"

Where did I say she wasn’t culpable ? She shot the guy.

You said you believed she intended to draw her gun. I said I didn’t believe she intended to draw her gun, and her statements before and after she fired indicate as much. That has nothing to do with whether or not she should answer for killing the guy.


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I do believe she intended to draw her gun, initially. You were in law enforcement, is your first action to pull your gun or your taser? I admit to having not interacted with the police much in my life - I've been pulled over 3 times and been in 1 accident, none of which involved a gun being required. However, it seems to be that the taser is always the back up option that comes out after the situation has been evaluated further, which I don't have an issue with. I realize tasers have a high failure rate to properly deploy and work.

I think she may have somehow forgotten she had her gun, felt something in her hand, assumed it was a taser because that's what she wanted to use, and shot him.

Again, I go back too in situations like these, or George Floyd, or Eric Garner, or any other case (involving any race) the police and public both sream "If only they would have stayed calm they would be alive". Maybe if the police would stay calm and keep their heads these people would still be alive.

It's clear she went into a state of panic and had no idea what she was doing. Just automatic responses. Why is it we demand complete composure from the suspects, but not the police? Only one of the two is paid to be calm and has trainings required for their job to be calm and handle the stress. It's clear she had lost her head and wasn't in control of her self until she heard the sound of the run rather than the taser. You can hear her snap back into her own head when she goes "Oh Shit. I shot him". She didn't know she had her gun. She also didn't know what she was doing at that point - which is common in times where you put your mind into extreme stress.

In this case, it isn't like she was a rookie who was getting some of her first experience and did have a ton of experience and training to fall back on. Potter was a 26 year veteran of the force. 26 years of experience during traffic stops - calm and contentious. 26 years of executing warrants. 26 years worth of mandatory training.

You'll actually find a large number of times I'm on the police side of how things end. When I'm watching police chases happen I want them to pit that fucker and not be gentle with they cuff them, because they had put so many other people in danger by driving like they were. I've seen far too many accidents, including some resulting in an innocent person dying because of the accident. I want the cops to use heavy force in those situations. Suspect has a weapon and threatened to use it? Don't use feathers and hugs to take them into custody. I have zero issues with that.

I have issues with cases like George Floyd or Eric Garner, or Daunte where the police are clearly in control of the situation and rather than following policy for the safety of everyone involed continue to escalate AND/OR are unable to maintain the calmness required of the position and end up killing someone because of it.

I take issue with situations where the badge is used as a shield to protect an officer from punishment. If this exact situation played out but it was some random guys getting into an argument with Daunte and he ends up accidentally shot there is zero question the person who did it would be arrest, tried, and convicted.

No one here is trying to claim George Floyd or Daunte or any of these other people are angels. However, just because they have charges in the past doesn't mean it's okay if they die in police custody.

[UNI88]

Neither Floyd or Wright should have died but I'm not sure the cases are comparable. The officers had Floyd under control, when Wright broke away and went into his car the threat level was much higher than with Floyd. Cops may train for that kind of thing but how often does it actually happen? I have no idea how I would react.

[UNI88]

Is that what goes on at an oline position group meeting?

It's much gayer than you could imagine.

Are you sure? Have you heard about Kalm's paddling adventures in the remote Palouse?

[Gil Dobie]

Neither Floyd or Wright should have died but I'm not sure the cases are comparable. The officers had Floyd under control, when Wright broke away and went into his car the threat level was much higher than with Floyd. Cops may train for that kind of thing but how often does it actually happen? I have no idea how I would react.

They took the handcuffs off Wright, before he got into the car, which is puzzling.

[GannonFan]

I think we have gotten to the point where the Black Lives Matter people have gone too far with the histrionics when something like this happens. There was a moment in time when the public opinion momentum was building on their side but it's gotten out of hand. I suspect there are many people who were inclined to be sympathetic but are now starting to think "enough is enough."

I think a lot of what is going on in press conferences now is coming off as being overly dramatic. Like the guy's aunt with the red hair dye job today. Sorry, but that looked fake. I also think this thing in this particular case of not believing that the woman did think she had her taser in her hand is ridiculous. Your brain can play tricks on you in a stressful, intense situation in which you are reacting quickly and I think it is a REAL stretch to think the woman calmly thought to pretend that she thought she had her taser in her hand then did this great acting job of acting surprised when she ended up shooting the guy. I mean come on.

I also think, as I wrote yesterday, that the way people behave when they encounter police is a factor in the risk of them ending up getting shot.

Then there is the thing where every time something like this makes big news you have a bunch of people, mostly Black people, loot stores and such. That's not the best way to overcome the kinds of stereotypes Black leaders are fighting to dispel.

This crap of having this big thing with protests and looting every time a Black person gets shot by a police officer needs to stop.

Unarmed people should not be getting shot during a traffic stop, whether they resist arrest or not. I've known many a young white person, that have done some crazy things when getting arrested, and none of them have been shot by police, or even thought their lives were in danger.

There are plenty of white people who are shot and killed by police - I think even in terms of raw numbers there are more white people killed by cops than there are Black people (raw numbers, not percentages). With that said, the number of interactions with cops and the numbers of times being pulled over by cops is way out of proportion.

[Gil Dobie]

Unarmed people should not be getting shot during a traffic stop, whether they resist arrest or not. I've known many a young white person, that have done some crazy things when getting arrested, and none of them have been shot by police, or even thought their lives were in danger.

There are plenty of white people who are shot and killed by police - I think even in terms of raw numbers there are more white people killed by cops than there are Black people (raw numbers, not percentages). With that said, the number of interactions with cops and the numbers of times being pulled over by cops is way out of proportion.

True, plenty of white people are shot and killed by police, it's not just the shootings, it's the legal system from the police thru to the courts. According to the Minnesota Supreme Court Task Force on Racial Bias, Blacks have a 20% higher conviction rate than Whites committing the same crime.

[SDHornet]

Is that what goes on at an oline position group meeting?

It's much gayer than you could imagine.

[BDKJMU]

I was talking with someone who was career law enforcement in north FL and GA and he said:
-There are black tasers.
-That during the initial struggle (the version of the video I have seen doesn’t show it) her web gear got shifted around on her waist and the taser was where her gun was.
-Said her taser was black.
If that was all true would explain things due to muscle memory during an adrenaline dump. BUT as you can see from one of the other officers in the video, he has what appears to be a yellow taser holstered on his left side. Don‘t know if that meams that all of those officers in that dept have yellow tasers.

Does anyone know for a fact what color her taser was?

[clenz]

According to attorneys her taser was in fact yellow.




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[clenz]

If he belt was shifted a perfect 180 around her body would that not mean he belt was too loose? I honestly don’t know

Would that also not require the weapon she pulled out to be facing backwards from the direction it would normally be and cause one to have to regroup?

That’s also still ignoring a 20-25 oz difference between the two and the difference between plastic and metal


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[clenz]

Also worth noting

The Brooklyn Police Department policy manual states that “all Taser devices shall be clearly and distinctly marked to differentiate them from the duty weapon and any other device.” The manual also says that “officers should not hold both a firearm and the Taser device at the same time.”

It appears that several aspects of how Officer Potter handled her weapons may have violated the protocol laid out in the manual, even if she had drawn her Taser and not her firearm.

The manual advises that the device should not be used against people “whose position or activity may result in collateral injury” — including people who are “operating vehicles.” Mr. Wright was sitting in the driver’s seat when Officer Potter fired, and his car traveled several blocks after he was shot.

The manual also says that “reasonable efforts should be made to target lower center mass and avoid the head, neck, chest and groin” if an officer is using a Taser. Mr. Wright died of a gunshot wound to his chest, according to the Hennepin County medical examiner.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... r-gun.html


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[89Hen]

Blacks have a 20% higher conviction rate than Whites committing the same crime.

It sounds like white should be complaining about being falsely arrested at an alarming rate. And I can only assume you mean being charged with the same crime.

[CID1990]

Where did I say she wasn’t culpable ? She shot the guy.

You said you believed she intended to draw her gun. I said I didn’t believe she intended to draw her gun, and her statements before and after she fired indicate as much. That has nothing to do with whether or not she should answer for killing the guy.


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I do believe she intended to draw her gun, initially. You were in law enforcement, is your first action to pull your gun or your taser? I admit to having not interacted with the police much in my life - I've been pulled over 3 times and been in 1 accident, none of which involved a gun being required. However, it seems to be that the taser is always the back up option that comes out after the situation has been evaluated further, which I don't have an issue with. I realize tasers have a high failure rate to properly deploy and work.

I think she may have somehow forgotten she had her gun, felt something in her hand, assumed it was a taser because that's what she wanted to use, and shot him.

Again, I go back too in situations like these, or George Floyd, or Eric Garner, or any other case (involving any race) the police and public both sream "If only they would have stayed calm they would be alive". Maybe if the police would stay calm and keep their heads these people would still be alive.

It's clear she went into a state of panic and had no idea what she was doing. Just automatic responses. Why is it we demand complete composure from the suspects, but not the police? Only one of the two is paid to be calm and has trainings required for their job to be calm and handle the stress. It's clear she had lost her head and wasn't in control of her self until she heard the sound of the run rather than the taser. You can hear her snap back into her own head when she goes "Oh Shit. I shot him". She didn't know she had her gun. She also didn't know what she was doing at that point - which is common in times where you put your mind into extreme stress.

In this case, it isn't like she was a rookie who was getting some of her first experience and did have a ton of experience and training to fall back on. Potter was a 26 year veteran of the force. 26 years of experience during traffic stops - calm and contentious. 26 years of executing warrants. 26 years worth of mandatory training.

You'll actually find a large number of times I'm on the police side of how things end. When I'm watching police chases happen I want them to pit that fucker and not be gentle with they cuff them, because they had put so many other people in danger by driving like they were. I've seen far too many accidents, including some resulting in an innocent person dying because of the accident. I want the cops to use heavy force in those situations. Suspect has a weapon and threatened to use it? Don't use feathers and hugs to take them into custody. I have zero issues with that.

I have issues with cases like George Floyd or Eric Garner, or Daunte where the police are clearly in control of the situation and rather than following policy for the safety of everyone involed continue to escalate AND/OR are unable to maintain the calmness required of the position and end up killing someone because of it.

I take issue with situations where the badge is used as a shield to protect an officer from punishment. If this exact situation played out but it was some random guys getting into an argument with Daunte and he ends up accidentally shot there is zero question the person who did it would be arrest, tried, and convicted.

No one here is trying to claim George Floyd or Daunte or any of these other people are angels. However, just because they have charges in the past doesn't mean it's okay if they die in police custody.

Neither, and it depends on the situation. Again, based on what I saw in the video, as well as her spontaneous statements before and after she shot the guy, I doubt very seriously that she intended to have her pistol. Your theory that she forgot which one she had in her hand is also plausible. I do think with a high degree of certainty that she thought she was tazing the guy when she pulled the trigger. And I know what was happening in her head when she did it - panic. Because I have a couple theories too: in spite of her time in service, she was not a very experienced street cop (lots of tells in the video) and she spent a lot of time doing touchy feely stuff or being a union rep. WHy she was on the street that day I dunno - but I had myself transferred away from a lot of cops like her. Because this was not the first time she did something dumb. It was just the first time she did something dumb with a fatal result.

But, a lot of this speculation being made about the size, shape and feel of the taser versus the pistol is really not going to stand up if intent plays a part in whatever she is charged with - based on what I said before - she was, justifiably or not, tunneled out. Because the question in terms of intent will be, "Did she intend to shoot him?

But as for all of that other stuff, I don't know who you're arguing with.

[89Hen]

Again, based on what I saw in the video, as well as her spontaneous statements before and after she shot the guy, I doubt very seriously that she intended to have her pistol.

The national news I saw the day it happened conveniently edited the video to make sure the audience got none of the horror in her voice as she realized her mistake. It was like the scene from My Cousin Vinny with the confession... I shot the clerk?

[BDKJMU]

If he belt was shifted a perfect 180 around her body would that not mean he belt was too loose? I honestly don’t know

Would that also not require the weapon she pulled out to be facing backwards from the direction it would normally be and cause one to have to regroup?

That’s also still ignoring a 20-25 oz difference between the two and the difference between plastic and metal


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Her belt wouldn’t have have to have shifted ‘a perfect 180’. 90/180 whatever, if her belt shifted somewhat to where the taser was closer to where the gun was that could explain grabbing it in the heat of the moment. Esp if she has a skinny waist (I have no idea her size) with barely enough room for weapon, taser, baton, flashlight, radio, knife, etc..

[Pwns]

Neither, and it depends on the situation. Again, based on what I saw in the video, as well as her spontaneous statements before and after she shot the guy, I doubt very seriously that she intended to have her pistol. Your theory that she forgot which one she had in her hand is also plausible. I do think with a high degree of certainty that she thought she was tazing the guy when she pulled the trigger. And I know what was happening in her head when she did it - panic. Because I have a couple theories too: in spite of her time in service, she was not a very experienced street cop (lots of tells in the video) and she spent a lot of time doing touchy feely stuff or being a union rep. WHy she was on the street that day I dunno - but I had myself transferred away from a lot of cops like her. Because this was not the first time she did something dumb. It was just the first time she did something dumb with a fatal result.

But, a lot of this speculation being made about the size, shape and feel of the taser versus the pistol is really not going to stand up if intent plays a part in whatever she is charged with - based on what I said before - she was, justifiably or not, tunneled out. Because the question in terms of intent will be, "Did she intend to shoot him?

But as for all of that other stuff, I don't know who you're arguing with.

From February

Minneapolis has about 200 fewer police officers available to work

Spitting in the face of cops to score political points has deadly consequences.

[SunCoastBlueHen]

Clearly this woman did not have the mental/emotional aptitude to handle a high pressure situation like this and police work was probably not the best carrier she could have chosen. She screwed up. Bad. Nothing I have seen, however, has convinced me that she had any intention of killing this kid. Also, why does no one want to place any blame on the kid? Do what the police tell you to do and you won't be shot. Why is that lost on everyone?

[Gil Dobie]

Clearly this woman did not have the mental/emotional aptitude to handle a high pressure situation like this and police work was probably not the best carrier she could have chosen. She screwed up. Bad. Nothing I have seen, however, has convinced me that she had any intention of killing this kid. Also, why does no one want to place any blame on the kid? Do what the police tell you to do and you won't be shot. Why is that lost on everyone?

No doubt the kid panicked after they took his hand-cuffs off. He should have been arrested for the warrant, and if he had been tased, he would have. Manslaughter is the proper charge. As you said, she sounded like she had a lot of remorse for her terrible mistake.

[Gil Dobie]

Neither, and it depends on the situation. Again, based on what I saw in the video, as well as her spontaneous statements before and after she shot the guy, I doubt very seriously that she intended to have her pistol. Your theory that she forgot which one she had in her hand is also plausible. I do think with a high degree of certainty that she thought she was tazing the guy when she pulled the trigger. And I know what was happening in her head when she did it - panic. Because I have a couple theories too: in spite of her time in service, she was not a very experienced street cop (lots of tells in the video) and she spent a lot of time doing touchy feely stuff or being a union rep. WHy she was on the street that day I dunno - but I had myself transferred away from a lot of cops like her. Because this was not the first time she did something dumb. It was just the first time she did something dumb with a fatal result.

But, a lot of this speculation being made about the size, shape and feel of the taser versus the pistol is really not going to stand up if intent plays a part in whatever she is charged with - based on what I said before - she was, justifiably or not, tunneled out. Because the question in terms of intent will be, "Did she intend to shoot him?

But as for all of that other stuff, I don't know who you're arguing with.

From February

Minneapolis has about 200 fewer police officers available to work

Spitting in the face of cops to score political points has deadly consequences.

I couldn't read the pay-site, but Brooklyn Center police dept is separate from Minneapolis police dept.

[JohnStOnge]

Again: To me no reasonable person is going to doubt that she thought she was holding a taser. In order to think otherwise you would have to think that, in the heat of the moment, she had to think, "I want to shoot this guy with my gun but I need to fix it so the body cam video makes it look like I wanted to use the taser. So I am going to get my gun then say "taser" to fool people into thinking I am thinking I am using my taser. Then I need to act like I'm surprised that I shot the guy."

It's just not really plausible. The woman thought she was holding her taser. People can make incredible mistakes when things are moving fast and they are reacting.

Also, I am getting really concerned by this lynch mob atmosphere that happens every time a Black person gets shot by a cop. Anybody who has seen me post over many years knows I have been very critical of police. But this is ridiculous.

[JohnStOnge]

There are plenty of white people who are shot and killed by police - I think even in terms of raw numbers there are more white people killed by cops than there are Black people (raw numbers, not percentages). With that said, the number of interactions with cops and the numbers of times being pulled over by cops is way out of proportion.

True, plenty of white people are shot and killed by police, it's not just the shootings, it's the legal system from the police thru to the courts. According to the Minnesota Supreme Court Task Force on Racial Bias, Blacks have a 20% higher conviction rate than Whites committing the same crime.

I don't know that there has been an honest assessment to consider whether things like that can be accounted for by factors other than race of defendant. My opinion is that when it comes to things like this there is indeed a bias towards showing racism. For example: If a social scientist does a study purporting to show that race plays a role in such things, they are going to be lauded. If a social scientist was to do a study purporting to show that race is not a factor when other factors are taken into account, they are going to be a pariah. They are going to have a harder time having their work published to begin with. It will get much more scrutiny. And if it is published they are going to be labeled with labels like "professors of hate."

[UNI88]

Clearly this woman did not have the mental/emotional aptitude to handle a high pressure situation like this and police work was probably not the best carrier she could have chosen. She screwed up. Bad. Nothing I have seen, however, has convinced me that she had any intention of killing this kid. Also, why does no one want to place any blame on the kid? Do what the police tell you to do and you won't be shot. Why is that lost on everyone?

No doubt the kid panicked after they took his hand-cuffs off. He should have been arrested for the warrant, and if he had been tased, he would have. Manslaughter is the proper charge. As you said, she sounded like she had a lot of remorse for her terrible mistake.

Did they take his handcuffs off or did he break away and jump into the car before they finished putting them on?

[Gil Dobie]

True, plenty of white people are shot and killed by police, it's not just the shootings, it's the legal system from the police thru to the courts. According to the Minnesota Supreme Court Task Force on Racial Bias, Blacks have a 20% higher conviction rate than Whites committing the same crime.

I don't know that there has been an honest assessment to consider whether things like that can be accounted for by factors other than race of defendant. My opinion is that when it comes to things like this there is indeed a bias towards showing racism. For example: If a social scientist does a study purporting to show that race plays a role in such things, they are going to be lauded. If a social scientist was to do a study purporting to show that race is not a factor when other factors are taken into account, they are going to be a pariah. They are going to have a harder time having their work published to begin with. It will get much more scrutiny. And if it is published they are going to be labeled with labels like "professors of hate."

The Minnesota Supreme Court Task Force on Racial Bias collected the statistics of the Minnesota Districts separately and in total. They showed each of 5 different degrees of drug crimes and compared each by race and by district. Pretty basic collection of statistics.

[houndawg]

Yes, I've taken some physics classes. You?

All three cops had their full weight on him and he was hancuffed face down while he begged for his life for 9 minutes. 3 cops averaging 160 lbs. each dressed is close to 500 lbs. PM me if you would like some help with the math.

I'd love me some math please, because unless the 160 lbs cops were directly over Floyd's body, there is no way in hell they delivered 480lbs of force upon him.

Is this SIU math?

..look at the film from across the street, they all had both legs on him, full weight of three grown men. Or rather three full grown cunts that couldn't subdue a handcuffed suspect without killing him.

[houndawg]

Clearly this woman did not have the mental/emotional aptitude to handle a high pressure situation like this and police work was probably not the best carrier she could have chosen. She screwed up. Bad. Nothing I have seen, however, has convinced me that she had any intention of killing this kid. Also, why does no one want to place any blame on the kid? Do what the police tell you to do and you won't be shot. Why is that lost on everyone?

No doubt the kid panicked after they took his hand-cuffs off. He should have been arrested for the warrant, and if he had been tased, he would have. Manslaughter is the proper charge. As you said, she sounded like she had a lot of remorse for her terrible mistake.

26 years on the job and she doesn't know which side her taser is on? This lying cunt is just trying to save her pension.