Would Andy Be Better Off If We Had Universal Health Care?

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

This seems to be a really tough thing to figure out how to do, so here you go.

[Skjellyfetti]

For 3 months before that, We tried to find a brain injury rehab for him to transition to from Bayview but our insurance (United health care) denied all
the places we found even after months of appeals and negotiating. The only places they approved would not accept Andy. The insurance gave us NO OTHER OPTIONS.
They won't even cover long term care or home care. They say continuing brain injury therapy isn't medically necessary even though the Hopkins doctors said it was and that 24 hr care is necessary.

Is this even up for debate?

Yes.

Health insurance prior authorizers have no medical degree. They haven't examined andy. They have no way of knowing what medical care he needs. Their goal is to maximize the bottom line.

[∞∞∞]

Yes, and so would his family.

He would be receiving whatever care he needs and his family wouldn't have to worry about fighting the insurance company, finding doctors, piling up debt, potentially losing their home, etc. Not only does it allow Andy to get the care he needs, but it relieves a ton of mental and financial pressure off families who should be focusing on other things.

From an economic standpoint, universal healthcare is proven to work:

1) The economy of scale is built-in and brings down prices of treatment.
2) It makes it easier for people to seek better jobs and maximizes abilities being used where best suited in the overall economy.
3) It encourages entrepreneurship (and innovation) as people don't need to worry about insurance. People can take more risks.
4) It makes small businesses significantly more attractive as they don't have to worry about non-competitive insurance benefits.
5) It removes the administrative costs for companies as they don't have to worry about insurance; they can better use this time elsewhere.
6) It largely removes administrative time required from healthcare workers and allows them to better focus on patients.
7) It incentivizes preventative care. Not only does this keep costs down for everyone, but a healthier society increases an economy's output, efficiency, and tax base.
8) It makes for a happier society, especially when mental health care is provided. Better physical and mental health treatments decrease suicide rates, homicide rates, substance abuse rates, and crime rates. All this effectively adds to your economic output and decreases tax burdens.

I'm sure I'm missing a few points, but we don't even need to reinvent the wheel on this one. It won't be perfect (nothing is), but it would absolutely help Andy, help most Americans, help ease the burden off loved ones, and boost the economy as a whole.

[bobbythekidd]

I've never understood people's love affair with their insurance company. It's even crazier that people will get fighting mad to defend them. My dad did this with me once and screamed that the alternative is socialism!

You pay them every month, you are their customer. In return for being a loyal customer, they break their backs to not do anything you paid them to do. Moreover, their useless existence just makes the costs of the services you receive to be more expensive. What other industry operates like that? It's weird that we have any that can still operate in this country. It's the most non capitalistic business model ever.

[Ibanez]

I've never understood people's love affair with their insurance company. It's even crazier that people will get fighting mad to defend them. My dad did this with me once and screamed that the alternative is socialism!

You pay them every month, you are their customer. In return for being a loyal customer, they break their backs to not do anything you paid them to do. Moreover, their useless existence just makes the costs of the services you receive to be more expensive. What other industry operates like that? It's weird that we have any that can still operate in this country. It's the most non capitalistic business model ever.

Bob Kidd is right. The concept of insurance is about where the good idea stops...after that it's a for profit venture that does everything in its power to make sure it does NOT deliver on the service in which its been engaged.

[SeattleGriz]

I've never understood people's love affair with their insurance company. It's even crazier that people will get fighting mad to defend them. My dad did this with me once and screamed that the alternative is socialism!

You pay them every month, you are their customer. In return for being a loyal customer, they break their backs to not do anything you paid them to do. Moreover, their useless existence just makes the costs of the services you receive to be more expensive. What other industry operates like that? It's weird that we have any that can still operate in this country. It's the most non capitalistic business model ever.

Bob Kidd is right. The concept of insurance is about where the good idea stops...after that it's a for profit venture that does everything in its power to make sure it does NOT deliver on the service in which its been engaged.

They all are very much like in the kids movie, 'The Incredibles' where the short boss complains they are "piercing the bureaucracy".

There is a large disparity in plans and they like to hide behind bureaucracy. I know I personally have had over 25k covered that originally wasn't, just by understanding the basics of how billing works. It certainly helps that my current company has dedicated reps that battle the insurance company on our behalf.

[SeattleGriz]

In regards to Andy, I honestly don't know the answer. Look at how the VA's are run, although I would hope we could do better than that. How about Medicare? I know Medicare is one of the better plans for doctors to take because payouts are pretty good, so I assume coverage is better.

[kalm]

In regards to Andy, I honestly don't know the answer. Look at how the VA's are run, although I would hope we could do better than that. How about Medicare? I know Medicare is one of the better plans for doctors to take because payouts are pretty good, so I assume coverage is better.

Some of the issues with the VA and Medicare are due to privatization.

[SeattleGriz]

In regards to Andy, I honestly don't know the answer. Look at how the VA's are run, although I would hope we could do better than that. How about Medicare? I know Medicare is one of the better plans for doctors to take because payouts are pretty good, so I assume coverage is better.

Some of the issues with the VA and Medicare are due to privatization.

I wouldn't doubt it. Also wasn't trying to imply if we went to universal health care, that it would look/operate like either. Just pointing out it's the closest we have for comparison at this point.

[CAA Flagship]

It's not that simple. You can't just look at a problem and think that a fix won't cause problems elsewhere. There are a lot of people in the healthcare field that are willing to "treat" people with things they don't really need so that they can profit from it. Healthcare is not an exact science and differing opinions come into play. There are bad actors on all sides of the field, including "patients" and providers. Universal Healthcare would help solve the problem for some, but it will likely create problems in other areas.

[Ibanez]

Bob Kidd is right. The concept of insurance is about where the good idea stops...after that it's a for profit venture that does everything in its power to make sure it does NOT deliver on the service in which its been engaged.

They all are very much like in the kids movie, 'The Incredibles' where the short boss complains they are "piercing the bureaucracy".

There is a large disparity in plans and they like to hide behind bureaucracy. I know I personally have had over 25k covered that originally wasn't, just by understanding the basics of how billing works. It certainly helps that my current company has dedicated reps that battle the insurance company on our behalf.

You also need a doctor willing to fight for you. We had a cosmetic surgery covered b/c it was causing physical and mental distress.

A guy I worked with had new hardwoods installed throughout his house partially covered due to his wife's severe allergies.

[kalm]

It's not that simple. You can't just look at a problem and think that a fix won't cause problems elsewhere. There are a lot of people in the healthcare field that are willing to "treat" people with things they don't really need so that they can profit from it. Healthcare is not an exact science and differing opinions come into play. There are bad actors on all sides of the field, including "patients" and providers. Universal Healthcare would help solve the problem for some, but it will likely create problems in other areas.

We already have those problems with the current for-profit model. Insurance companies exist through denying care.

No system is perfect. Universal care is cheaper, more end-user friendly, and produces equal to better outcomes.

[Col Hogan]

It's not that simple. You can't just look at a problem and think that a fix won't cause problems elsewhere. There are a lot of people in the healthcare field that are willing to "treat" people with things they don't really need so that they can profit from it. Healthcare is not an exact science and differing opinions come into play. There are bad actors on all sides of the field, including "patients" and providers. Universal Healthcare would help solve the problem for some, but it will likely create problems in other areas.

We already have those problems with the current for-profit model. Insurance companies exist through denying care.

No system is perfect. Universal care is cheaper, more end-user friendly, and produces equal to better outcomes.

Where is universal health care “more user friendly” and produce “equal to better outcomes…”?

[UNI88]

It's not that simple. You can't just look at a problem and think that a fix won't cause problems elsewhere. There are a lot of people in the healthcare field that are willing to "treat" people with things they don't really need so that they can profit from it. Healthcare is not an exact science and differing opinions come into play. There are bad actors on all sides of the field, including "patients" and providers. Universal Healthcare would help solve the problem for some, but it will likely create problems in other areas.

Flaggy is correct about unintended consequences but Trip's post was excellent and I'd like to see if anyone can rebut his arguments ...

From an economic standpoint, universal healthcare is proven to work:

1) The economy of scale is built-in and brings down prices of treatment.
2) It makes it easier for people to seek better jobs and maximizes abilities being used where best suited in the overall economy.
3) It encourages entrepreneurship (and innovation) as people don't need to worry about insurance. People can take more risks.
4) It makes small businesses significantly more attractive as they don't have to worry about non-competitive insurance benefits.
5) It removes the administrative costs for companies as they don't have to worry about insurance; they can better use this time elsewhere.
6) It largely removes administrative time required from healthcare workers and allows them to better focus on patients.
7) It incentivizes preventative care. Not only does this keep costs down for everyone, but a healthier society increases an economy's output, efficiency, and tax base.
8) It makes for a happier society, especially when mental health care is provided. Better physical and mental health treatments decrease suicide rates, homicide rates, substance abuse rates, and crime rates. All this effectively adds to your economic output and decreases tax burdens.

I'm sure I'm missing a few points, but we don't even need to reinvent the wheel on this one. It won't be perfect (nothing is), but it would absolutely help Andy, help most Americans, help ease the burden off loved ones, and boost the economy as a whole.

[Ibanez]

It's not that simple. You can't just look at a problem and think that a fix won't cause problems elsewhere. There are a lot of people in the healthcare field that are willing to "treat" people with things they don't really need so that they can profit from it. Healthcare is not an exact science and differing opinions come into play. There are bad actors on all sides of the field, including "patients" and providers. Universal Healthcare would help solve the problem for some, but it will likely create problems in other areas.

Flaggy is correct about unintended consequences but Trip's post was excellent and I'd like to see if anyone can rebut his arguments ...

From an economic standpoint, universal healthcare is proven to work:

1) The economy of scale is built-in and brings down prices of treatment.
2) It makes it easier for people to seek better jobs and maximizes abilities being used where best suited in the overall economy.
3) It encourages entrepreneurship (and innovation) as people don't need to worry about insurance. People can take more risks.
4) It makes small businesses significantly more attractive as they don't have to worry about non-competitive insurance benefits.
5) It removes the administrative costs for companies as they don't have to worry about insurance; they can better use this time elsewhere.
6) It largely removes administrative time required from healthcare workers and allows them to better focus on patients.
7) It incentivizes preventative care. Not only does this keep costs down for everyone, but a healthier society increases an economy's output, efficiency, and tax base.
8) It makes for a happier society, especially when mental health care is provided. Better physical and mental health treatments decrease suicide rates, homicide rates, substance abuse rates, and crime rates. All this effectively adds to your economic output and decreases tax burdens.

I'm sure I'm missing a few points, but we don't even need to reinvent the wheel on this one. It won't be perfect (nothing is), but it would absolutely help Andy, help most Americans, help ease the burden off loved ones, and boost the economy as a whole.

So the benefits of UHC would...trickle down?

[Baldy]

The bureaucratic structures of insurance companies are horrible, but they're built that way on purpose. If you think UHC won't be the same or worse than the DMV or DFACS running your health care, you're living in a fantasy world.

The bureaucratic nature of government dwarfs anything you'll find in the private sector.

[93henfan]

We had a cosmetic surgery covered b/c it was causing physical and mental distress.

Did they get you to 6 inches?

[Ibanez]

We had a cosmetic surgery covered b/c it was causing physical and mental distress.

Did they get you to 6 inches?

6.93

[UNI88]

The bureaucratic structures of insurance companies are horrible, but they're built that way on purpose. If you think UHC won't be the same or worse than the DMV or DFACS running your health care, you're living in a fantasy world.

The bureaucratic nature of government dwarfs anything you'll find in the private sector.

I don't doubt that. Would the downsides be offset by the positives like the ones Trip listed?

There is no perfect system but the system we have has some significant downsides. Why can't we try to find a way to improve it or build a better system?

[Bobcat]

Why should other people pay for my healthcare? If I cant do it myself then I will accept the outcome, its nobodys business but mine and its definitely not anyone elses bill to pay for. Never understood that entitled way of thinking

[UNI88]

Why should other people pay for my healthcare? If I cant do it myself then I will accept the outcome, its nobodys business but mine and its definitely not anyone elses bill to pay for. Never understood that entitled way of thinking

Congratulations on being able to afford your own healthcare and not needing to rely on an employer sponsored plan.

[AZGrizFan]

Yes, and so would his family.

He would be receiving whatever care he needs and his family wouldn't have to worry about fighting the insurance company, finding doctors, piling up debt, potentially losing their home, etc. Not only does it allow Andy to get the care he needs, but it relieves a ton of mental and financial pressure off families who should be focusing on other things.

From an economic standpoint, universal healthcare is proven to work:

1) The economy of scale is built-in and brings down prices of treatment.
2) It makes it easier for people to seek better jobs and maximizes abilities being used where best suited in the overall economy.
3) It encourages entrepreneurship (and innovation) as people don't need to worry about insurance. People can take more risks.
4) It makes small businesses significantly more attractive as they don't have to worry about non-competitive insurance benefits.
5) It removes the administrative costs for companies as they don't have to worry about insurance; they can better use this time elsewhere.
6) It largely removes administrative time required from healthcare workers and allows them to better focus on patients.
7) It incentivizes preventative care. Not only does this keep costs down for everyone, but a healthier society increases an economy's output, efficiency, and tax base.
8) It makes for a happier society, especially when mental health care is provided. Better physical and mental health treatments decrease suicide rates, homicide rates, substance abuse rates, and crime rates. All this effectively adds to your economic output and decreases tax burdens.

I'm sure I'm missing a few points, but we don't even need to reinvent the wheel on this one. It won't be perfect (nothing is), but it would absolutely help Andy, help most Americans, help ease the burden off loved ones, and boost the economy as a whole.

Yes. Let’s just send him to the VA so he can die in the hallways. That’s universal healthcare in a nutshell.

[SDHornet]

There are valid argument either way on this. Anyone that works for or closely with government knows that UHC will become mired down in inefficiencies and bureaucracy rendering the system pretty much useless, more so that than quasi-private one we have now. Not sure what the answer is, but we just had 2 years of letting the government solve a major problem for us, so yeah I'll pass for now.

[BDKJMU]

With UHC everyone will have health care. But it will be mediocre at best, with waiting periods and rationing. And those with means will still have private insurance, have better health care than the majority, and there will still be teeth gnashing about how the system is unfair.

[bobbythekidd]

Yes. Let’s just send him to the VA so he can die in the hallways. That’s universal healthcare in a nutshell.

Please share with the rest of us about all those corpses you had to shove your way past to have your physicals while you were in the Navy.

Don't believe all the propaganda. Every other developed country in the world has universal healthcare. If it was so bad, at least one would have abandoned it by now and gone to a private health insurance company model like ours.

You know it's better because when Congress had the chance to pick what model they were going to have they chose universal health care. They gave up potential millions in campaign donations to go that route. What's more, they made sure that it was for life so that they didn't have to return to private health insurance if they lost their office or retired.