The Ukraine Crisis

[GannonFan]

Good article on the surrounding of RUS troops in Kherson and operational tactics. The next couple of months may be interesting.

https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2022/08/22/g ... n-kherson/

Stalin was furious with FDR for dribbling out just enough supplies to Russia to keep them fighting the Germans but not enough to allow them to go on offense. We should spend whatever we need to spend to keep the Ukrainians killing Russians

What kind of dubious history have you been reading? How do you figure that FDR was minutely adjusting the flow of supplies (okay, a little more this month, but let's cut back a little next month) to Russia to do what you are saying they did? Russia started their first offensive in the war as early as the winter of 1941 (so just about 6 months after the German invasion began) and they had a series of offensives throughout the eastern front for the rest of the war. Of course our supplies ramped up over time - we were not set up to instantly open the spigot and supply Russia immediately and we had to supply Great Britain as well as ramp up ourselves. But what we did manage to get to them was impressive and substantial and certainly not in any way metered like you're implying to meticulously coax Russia to keep fighting. What was their option anyway since Germany wanted to ethnically cleanse them out of existence? Surrender isn't a good option in cases like that. And Stalin was always furious about things, it's just who he was.

[houndawg]

Stalin was furious with FDR for dribbling out just enough supplies to Russia to keep them fighting the Germans but not enough to allow them to go on offense. We should spend whatever we need to spend to keep the Ukrainians killing Russians

What kind of dubious history have you been reading? How do you figure that FDR was minutely adjusting the flow of supplies (okay, a little more this month, but let's cut back a little next month) to Russia to do what you are saying they did? Russia started their first offensive in the war as early as the winter of 1941 (so just about 6 months after the German invasion began) and they had a series of offensives throughout the eastern front for the rest of the war. Of course our supplies ramped up over time - we were not set up to instantly open the spigot and supply Russia immediately and we had to supply Great Britain as well as ramp up ourselves. But what we did manage to get to them was impressive and substantial and certainly not in any way metered like you're implying to meticulously coax Russia to keep fighting. What was their option anyway since Germany wanted to ethnically cleanse them out of existence? Surrender isn't a good option in cases like that. And Stalin was always furious about things, it's just who he was.

What are you even talking about?

The Russians didn't have to be coaxed into fighting, Germany opened a second front.... and from the beginning the Allies new that Russia would be an adversary after the war.

[GannonFan]

What kind of dubious history have you been reading? How do you figure that FDR was minutely adjusting the flow of supplies (okay, a little more this month, but let's cut back a little next month) to Russia to do what you are saying they did? Russia started their first offensive in the war as early as the winter of 1941 (so just about 6 months after the German invasion began) and they had a series of offensives throughout the eastern front for the rest of the war. Of course our supplies ramped up over time - we were not set up to instantly open the spigot and supply Russia immediately and we had to supply Great Britain as well as ramp up ourselves. But what we did manage to get to them was impressive and substantial and certainly not in any way metered like you're implying to meticulously coax Russia to keep fighting. What was their option anyway since Germany wanted to ethnically cleanse them out of existence? Surrender isn't a good option in cases like that. And Stalin was always furious about things, it's just who he was.

What are you even talking about?

The Russians didn't have to be coaxed into fighting, Germany opened a second front.... and from the beginning the Allies new that Russia would be an adversary after the war.

Then why did you just make a post arguing that FDR had to give enough supplies to the Russians to keep them fighting? Now you're arguing against your own post (which isn't atypical for you, just pointing it out).

[houndawg]

What are you even talking about?

The Russians didn't have to be coaxed into fighting, Germany opened a second front.... and from the beginning the Allies new that Russia would be an adversary after the war.

Then why did you just make a post arguing that FDR had to give enough supplies to the Russians to keep them fighting? Now you're arguing against your own post (which isn't atypical for you, just pointing it out).

...because you need supplies to fight and Germany fighting Russia to a stalemate in Russia was obviously good for the Allies and Russia was moving their factories back out of bombing range behind the Urals so there was a dip in their productivity

[kalm]

You’re comparing 1960’s tech with at best 80’s fire control systems to modern GPS guided systems?

The DOD is officially going to make this a named operation. We will be supporting it for the long haul as are most sensible nations (that didn’t make a deal with the devil …looking at you Germany).

Crimea is going to be contested. Putin knows this and is amping up troop “recruitment”.

We are still the good guys…mostly. ‘Murica!

He doesn't get that just because it looks like our stuff doesn't mean it performs like our stuff. (But I'm OK with his low-information opinions when the trade off is getting to listen to him rage against the Military Industrial Complex.)

That part is entertaining.

[GannonFan]

Then why did you just make a post arguing that FDR had to give enough supplies to the Russians to keep them fighting? Now you're arguing against your own post (which isn't atypical for you, just pointing it out).

...because you need supplies to fight and Germany fighting Russia to a stalemate in Russia was obviously good for the Allies and Russia was moving their factories back out of bombing range behind the Urals so there was a dip in their productivity

So? Your first post on this makes no sense. Russia was on the offensive 6 months into the war on the Eastern front, Russia wasn't going to stop fighting (regardless of what we supplied them), and we gave them everything we could throughout the war to help. Of course Stalin wanted more, he always wanted more no matter what.

[houndawg]

...because you need supplies to fight and Germany fighting Russia to a stalemate in Russia was obviously good for the Allies and Russia was moving their factories back out of bombing range behind the Urals so there was a dip in their productivity

So? Your first post on this makes no sense. Russia was on the offensive 6 months into the war on the Eastern front, Russia wasn't going to stop fighting (regardless of what we supplied them), and we gave them everything we could throughout the war to help. Of course Stalin wanted more, he always wanted more no matter what.

good grief....no they weren't going to stop fighting but they were going to run out of shit to fight with if they had to produce all their own

[kalm]

The battle for Kherson is underway.

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/08/29/7365196/

[BDKJMU]

Good article on the surrounding of RUS troops in Kherson and operational tactics. The next couple of months may be interesting.

https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2022/08/22/g ... n-kherson/

Stalin was furious with FDR for dribbling out just enough supplies to Russia to keep them fighting the Germans but not enough to allow them to go on offense. We should spend whatever we need to spend to keep the Ukrainians killing Russians

We started arming the Soviets after Germany launched Barberossa, and 5 1/2 month later was Pearl Harbor. At that point we didn’t have the capability to give the Soviets as much as they wanted and ramp up to fight a 2 front war.

[houndawg]

Stalin was furious with FDR for dribbling out just enough supplies to Russia to keep them fighting the Germans but not enough to allow them to go on offense. We should spend whatever we need to spend to keep the Ukrainians killing Russians

We started arming the Soviets after Germany launched Barberossa, and 5 1/2 month later was Pearl Harbor. At that point we didn’t have the capability to give the Soviets as much as they wanted and ramp up to fight a 2 front war.

Nor was it to our advantage to do so if we could, the further east the Russians and Germans fight the more European territory winds up in the West

When I was stationed at Ft. Wainwright they found a P-39 Air Cobra out in the middle of Alaska where ice melted that had crashed while being ferried to Russia. We had a Sky Crane unit in our Aviation Bn that was preparing to bring it back for restoration when I ETSed

[GrizFanStuckInUtah]

When I was stationed at Ft. Wainwright they found a P-39 Air Cobra out in the middle of Alaska where ice melted that had crashed while being ferried to Russia. We had a Sky Crane unit in our Aviation Bn that was preparing to bring it back for restoration when I ETSed

I spent 2 years at Ft Greely and 2 of my kids where born at Ft Wainwright. I loved Alaska when I was there.

[houndawg]

When I was stationed at Ft. Wainwright they found a P-39 Air Cobra out in the middle of Alaska where ice melted that had crashed while being ferried to Russia. We had a Sky Crane unit in our Aviation Bn that was preparing to bring it back for restoration when I ETSed

I spent 2 years at Ft Greely and 2 of my kids where born at Ft Wainwright. I loved Alaska when I was there.

You must have pissed somebody off


When were you there? 77/'78 for me, 222nd Avn Bn, lived in Fairbanks most of '79 after I got out..

[GrizFanStuckInUtah]

I spent 2 years at Ft Greely and 2 of my kids where born at Ft Wainwright. I loved Alaska when I was there.

You must have pissed somebody off


When were you there? 77/'78 for me, 222nd Avn Bn, lived in Fairbanks most of '79 after I got out..

I was there from '88-'90 and I must have continued to piss someone off, they sent me to Ft. Riley after Greely. I wish I could have stayed in Alaska.

[BDKJMU]

Stalin was furious with FDR for dribbling out just enough supplies to Russia to keep them fighting the Germans but not enough to allow them to go on offense. We should spend whatever we need to spend to keep the Ukrainians killing Russians

What kind of dubious history have you been reading? How do you figure that FDR was minutely adjusting the flow of supplies (okay, a little more this month, but let's cut back a little next month) to Russia to do what you are saying they did? Russia started their first offensive in the war as early as the winter of 1941 (so just about 6 months after the German invasion began) and they had a series of offensives throughout the eastern front for the rest of the war. Of course our supplies ramped up over time - we were not set up to instantly open the spigot and supply Russia immediately and we had to supply Great Britain as well as ramp up ourselves. But what we did manage to get to them was impressive and substantial and certainly not in any way metered like you're implying to meticulously coax Russia to keep fighting. What was their option anyway since Germany wanted to ethnically cleanse them out of existence? Surrender isn't a good option in cases like that. And Stalin was always furious about things, it's just who he was.

I should have read ahead and noticed you aready had Densedawg’s nonsense covered..

[Skjellyfetti]

Everything going according to plan!

Putin sidelines Russia's defense minister over stalled progress in Ukraine, according to the UK
https://www.foxnews.com/world/putin-sid ... cording-uk

[BDKJMU]

HIMARS aren't a game changer, Ukraine had comparable MLRS systems before war started.

And I haven't posted anything because this thing has settled into the forever war the MIC wanted once Afghanistan was shut down. Of course, Ukraine is winning so hard that equipment set to go to active units are being diverted to Ukraine...but yeah I'm sure that offensive to take back Crimea is going to kick off any day now.

You’re comparing 1960’s tech with at best 80’s fire control systems to modern GPS guided systems?

The DOD is officially going to make this a named operation. We will be supporting it for the long haul as are most sensible nations (that didn’t make a deal with the devil …looking at you Germany).

Crimea is going to be contested. Putin knows this and is amping up troop “recruitment”.

We are still the good guys…mostly. ‘Murica!

And the MIC will grow fat on the largess as we spend hundreds of billions of US tax dollars defending another country’s borders that we dont have a vital national security interest in, while failing to defend out own, going even further into a debt thats already impossible to climb out of..

[kalm]

You’re comparing 1960’s tech with at best 80’s fire control systems to modern GPS guided systems?

The DOD is officially going to make this a named operation. We will be supporting it for the long haul as are most sensible nations (that didn’t make a deal with the devil …looking at you Germany).

Crimea is going to be contested. Putin knows this and is amping up troop “recruitment”.

We are still the good guys…mostly. ‘Murica!

And the MIC will grow fat on the largess as we spend hundreds of billions of US tax dollars defending another country’s borders that we dont have a vital national security interest in, while failing to defend out own, going even further into a debt thats already impossible to climb out of..

Remember when we once saved the world from fascism?

[houndawg]

You must have pissed somebody off


When were you there? 77/'78 for me, 222nd Avn Bn, lived in Fairbanks most of '79 after I got out..

I was there from '88-'90 and I must have continued to piss someone off, they sent me to Ft. Riley after Greely. I wish I could have stayed in Alaska.

Most of my company at Ft. Polk rotated to Germany, I went to Alaska and one guy went to Panama, never figured out who I pissed off - coulda been anybody

[houndawg]

What kind of dubious history have you been reading? How do you figure that FDR was minutely adjusting the flow of supplies (okay, a little more this month, but let's cut back a little next month) to Russia to do what you are saying they did? Russia started their first offensive in the war as early as the winter of 1941 (so just about 6 months after the German invasion began) and they had a series of offensives throughout the eastern front for the rest of the war. Of course our supplies ramped up over time - we were not set up to instantly open the spigot and supply Russia immediately and we had to supply Great Britain as well as ramp up ourselves. But what we did manage to get to them was impressive and substantial and certainly not in any way metered like you're implying to meticulously coax Russia to keep fighting. What was their option anyway since Germany wanted to ethnically cleanse them out of existence? Surrender isn't a good option in cases like that. And Stalin was always furious about things, it's just who he was.

I should have read ahead and noticed you aready had Densedawg’s nonsense covered..

Actually he agreed with me.

The rest is just him being pissy, he'll calm down when the hearings start back up and he can yell at his TV.

[GannonFan]

I should have read ahead and noticed you aready had Densedawg’s nonsense covered..

Actually he agreed with me.

The rest is just him being pissy, he'll calm down when the hearings start back up and he can yell at his TV.

Uh, no, we didn't agree. You said FDR held back supplies from Russia in order to purposely weaken Russia and extend the war. But FDR was also super adept at this and made sure to give them just enough that they would keep fighting and not surrender. None of those are true. You made them up. We were of course conscious of the Soviets being our adversary after the war and we didn't give them items that could have been significant game changers in the post-war world (i.e. nuclear secrets). But we didn't hold back supplies purposely to have Russia suffer more losses. And we already established that you were wrong about trying to stop Russia from suing for peace and exiting the war. The war was about the annihilation of the Soviet Union, Stalin wasn't weighing agreeing to a peace treaty for that. Your original points still betray a shockingly incorrect version of history and you should hold your history teachers to blame if they gave you that made-up stuff.

Oh, I don't watch the hearings, I said my wife does. I find the hearings to be just political commercials. We already know that what Trump did was impeachable (and I would've voted to remove him if I was a Senator. Shame that the Dems muddied the waters with an ill-advised impeachment attempt earlier in the Trump administration that worked against them when the second, and real impeachment happened) and we already knew pretty much everything that's come out so far. This thing didn't happen in secret, Trump tweeted about everything and it all happened on tv. When the hearings come back on we'll be in full swing of both college and NFL football seasons, not to mention the baseball playoffs, and I will have plenty of more company of people who have stopped watching the hearings.

[houndawg]

Actually he agreed with me.

The rest is just him being pissy, he'll calm down when the hearings start back up and he can yell at his TV.

Uh, no, we didn't aYou said FDR held back supplies from Russia in order to purposely weaken Russia and extend the war. But FDR was also super adept at this and made sure to give them just enough that they would keep fighting and not surrender. None of those are true. You made them up. We were of course conscious of the Soviets being our adversary after the war and we didn't give them items that could have been significant game changers in the post-war world (i.e. nuclear secrets). But we didn't hold back supplies purposely to have Russia suffer more losses. And we already established that you were wrong about trying to stop Russia from suing for peace and exiting the war. The war was about the annihilation of the Soviet Union, Stalin wasn't weighing agreeing to a peace treaty for that. Your original points still betray a shockingly incorrect version of history and you should hold your history teachers to blame if they gave you that made-up stuff.

Oh, I don't watch the hearings, I said my wife does. I find the hearings to be just political commercials. We already know that what Trump did was impeachable (and I would've voted to remove him if I was a Senator. Shame that the Dems muddied the waters with an ill-advised impeachment attempt earlier in the Trump administration that worked against them when the second, and real impeachment happened) and we already knew pretty much everything that's come out so far. This thing didn't happen in secret, Trump tweeted about everything and it all happened on tv. When the hearings come back on we'll be in full swing of both college and NFL football seasons, not to mention the baseball playoffs, and I will have plenty of more company of people who have stopped watching the hearings.

Not giving them significant game-changers is stringing them along and letting them take more losses than necessary. Obviously we wanted the Russians to take as much of the German army away from our front as possible.


you're doing BD's routine of fucking a fly's ass

[GannonFan]

Uh, no, we didn't aYou said FDR held back supplies from Russia in order to purposely weaken Russia and extend the war. But FDR was also super adept at this and made sure to give them just enough that they would keep fighting and not surrender. None of those are true. You made them up. We were of course conscious of the Soviets being our adversary after the war and we didn't give them items that could have been significant game changers in the post-war world (i.e. nuclear secrets). But we didn't hold back supplies purposely to have Russia suffer more losses. And we already established that you were wrong about trying to stop Russia from suing for peace and exiting the war. The war was about the annihilation of the Soviet Union, Stalin wasn't weighing agreeing to a peace treaty for that. Your original points still betray a shockingly incorrect version of history and you should hold your history teachers to blame if they gave you that made-up stuff.

Oh, I don't watch the hearings, I said my wife does. I find the hearings to be just political commercials. We already know that what Trump did was impeachable (and I would've voted to remove him if I was a Senator. Shame that the Dems muddied the waters with an ill-advised impeachment attempt earlier in the Trump administration that worked against them when the second, and real impeachment happened) and we already knew pretty much everything that's come out so far. This thing didn't happen in secret, Trump tweeted about everything and it all happened on tv. When the hearings come back on we'll be in full swing of both college and NFL football seasons, not to mention the baseball playoffs, and I will have plenty of more company of people who have stopped watching the hearings.

Not giving them significant game-changers is stringing them along and letting them take more losses than necessary. Obviously we wanted the Russians to take as much of the German army away from our front as possible.


you're doing BD's routine of fucking a fly's ass

What did we hold back either than nuclear stuff, which we didn't even have until '45 anyway? We pretty much built their heavy industrial sector for them. We never "strung them along". And now you're saying we purposely increased Russian beyond what was necessary throughout the war? You seriously need to quit listening to or reading whatever you've been reading because you are woefully being misled and are incredibly ignorant on the topic you're commenting on. But that is your schtick.

[SDHornet]

HIMARS aren't a game changer, Ukraine had comparable MLRS systems before war started.

And I haven't posted anything because this thing has settled into the forever war the MIC wanted once Afghanistan was shut down. Of course, Ukraine is winning so hard that equipment set to go to active units are being diverted to Ukraine...but yeah I'm sure that offensive to take back Crimea is going to kick off any day now.

You’re comparing 1960’s tech with at best 80’s fire control systems to modern GPS guided systems?

The DOD is officially going to make this a named operation. We will be supporting it for the long haul as are most sensible nations (that didn’t make a deal with the devil …looking at you Germany).

Crimea is going to be contested. Putin knows this and is amping up troop “recruitment”.

We are still the good guys…mostly. ‘Murica!

From an article I read the Ukrainians had some newer MLRS tech/systems than "1960's" and most if not all of them were glassed by the Russians early in the War, so they had to go back to the Tochka systems (older). Also read the HIMARS are satellite guided, meaning they need US intel/satellites for targeting (i.e. direct US involvement). It's been a few months since I read up on it so could be off on some of the details. Point being the HIMARS aren't some massive game changer from their original capabilities pre-war.

[SDHornet]

The battle for Kherson is underway.

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/08/29/7365196/

So Ukrainians take back Kherson yet?

Brilliant move to make an armored assault across open steppe when the enemy is dug in their artillery has you out ranged and out gunned. Absolutely brilliant.

[UNI88]

The battle for Kherson is underway.

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/08/29/7365196/

So Ukrainians take back Kherson yet?

Brilliant move to make an armored assault across open steppe when the enemy is dug in their artillery has you out ranged and out gunned. Absolutely brilliant.

So you're saying they're almost as dumb as the Russians?