The Ukraine Crisis

[SDHornet]

Ukraine isn't America's proxy; the West did not start this war.

We are assisting Ukraine because it asked for help and it's the right thing to do. Russia had every chance not to invade. Sure we had normal geopolitical tussles with Russia before they invaded Ukraine, but even today, Russia isn't considered an "enemy".

You really need to read up on what was going down in Ukraine gubmint in the last 8-10 years. This quagmire started long before Feb 2022.

[SDHornet]

So, what's it take for you to say, "I was misled"?

Gannon Fan is too chicken to reply. You should want to show your knowledge here.

Your Ukraine plan moving forward?

Huh? You have more lies to spread? Russia doesn't have international law on their side. There's no rules-based theory that justifies them unprovokingly attacking another sovereign country, holding sham elections in areas of land they stole after they killed off or drove off much of the population that had lived there, and then claiming those areas as now part of your own country. International law says exactly the opposite of that. And nothing we did in Iraq or Afghanistan compare at all to what Russia has now done in Ukraine. Every setback Russia has experienced in this war has been explained away by you as part of the master plan. They meant to be turned away from Kiev. They meant to run out of personnel and needed to install a not-well-received draft of a couple hundred thousand more cannon fodder. They meant to let Ukraine take back territory they just claimed as part of Mother Russia. You won't ever think you're wrong because that would imply that you're thinking critically, which clearly you are not doing. You're a bot, and not a particularly good one.

Bombing the electrical grid before the invasion kinda compares, or is it ok when we do it?

[SDHornet]

Wonder what all the Putin Hawks and the ra ra Ukraine crowd thinks of one of the most infamous arms dealers being set free for a WNBA player.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/08/europe/v ... index.html

Lots of weapons floating around Ukraine for him to play with. This is some scary shit. How long until some of that hardware starts popping up in the rest of the world?

[SDHornet]

Invasion has been less than helpful in removing Zelenskiy. He had a 31% approval rating before the invasion. Now he's a national hero.

Not hard to be when you ban the opposition party and kick out foreign press that runs a negative story. But to is credit, he has earned an Oscar for his performance, and also got Time Person of the Year. He's crushing it on the PR front.

[SeattleGriz]

Invasion has been less than helpful in removing Zelenskiy. He had a 31% approval rating before the invasion. Now he's a national hero.

Not hard to be when you ban the opposition party and kick out foreign press that runs a negative story. But to is credit, he has earned an Oscar for his performance, and also got Time Person of the Year. He's crushing it on the PR front.

The only way it could get better, would be if Obama would give Zelenskyy (with two y's now) his Nobel prize.

[GannonFan]

Huh? You have more lies to spread? Russia doesn't have international law on their side. There's no rules-based theory that justifies them unprovokingly attacking another sovereign country, holding sham elections in areas of land they stole after they killed off or drove off much of the population that had lived there, and then claiming those areas as now part of your own country. International law says exactly the opposite of that. And nothing we did in Iraq or Afghanistan compare at all to what Russia has now done in Ukraine. Every setback Russia has experienced in this war has been explained away by you as part of the master plan. They meant to be turned away from Kiev. They meant to run out of personnel and needed to install a not-well-received draft of a couple hundred thousand more cannon fodder. They meant to let Ukraine take back territory they just claimed as part of Mother Russia. You won't ever think you're wrong because that would imply that you're thinking critically, which clearly you are not doing. You're a bot, and not a particularly good one.

Bombing the electrical grid before the invasion kinda compares, or is it ok when we do it?

Did we invade, clear out the inhabitants, hold a sham election, and then take and keep territory that we considered our own? Do we have several states now that are from territory we stole from Iraq or Afghanistan? Of course not. Russia is stealing territory from a neighbor because they wanted it. They weren't provoked, they were not at risk of being invaded themselves. They just wanted to expand their empire. Nothing we did with Iraq or Afghanistan is anything like that. It's a false equivalency for people who like rooting for the Russians.

[SDHornet]

Bombing the electrical grid before the invasion kinda compares, or is it ok when we do it?

Did we invade, clear out the inhabitants, hold a sham election, and then take and keep territory that we considered our own? Do we have several states now that are from territory we stole from Iraq or Afghanistan? Of course not. Russia is stealing territory from a neighbor because they wanted it. They weren't provoked, they were not at risk of being invaded themselves. They just wanted to expand their empire. Nothing we did with Iraq or Afghanistan is anything like that. It's a false equivalency for people who like rooting for the Russians.

I dunno but we sure bombed them to shit. We did hold elections once we "liberated" Iraq, no? We still have bases in Iraq or no? And ever hear of the Kurds?

Unfortunately for your narrative, there are more similarities than you'd like to admit. Russia is doing what they want because no one will stop them, kinda like how we rolled various ME nations...because no one could stop us (except for some sandal clad goat herders with AKs).

Sorry guys, we've lost the plot long ago. And no, this doesn't justify Russia's actions but we've lost the moral high ground on the use of military force aboard long ago.

[SDHornet]

[GannonFan]

Did we invade, clear out the inhabitants, hold a sham election, and then take and keep territory that we considered our own? Do we have several states now that are from territory we stole from Iraq or Afghanistan? Of course not. Russia is stealing territory from a neighbor because they wanted it. They weren't provoked, they were not at risk of being invaded themselves. They just wanted to expand their empire. Nothing we did with Iraq or Afghanistan is anything like that. It's a false equivalency for people who like rooting for the Russians.

I dunno but we sure bombed them to shit. We did hold elections once we "liberated" Iraq, no? We still have bases in Iraq or no? And ever hear of the Kurds?

Unfortunately for your narrative, there are more similarities than you'd like to admit. Russia is doing what they want because no one will stop them, kinda like how we rolled various ME nations...because no one could stop us (except for some sandal clad goat herders with AKs).

Sorry guys, we've lost the plot long ago. And no, this doesn't justify Russia's actions but we've lost the moral high ground on the use of military force aboard long ago.

We don't own any of those countries, we don't run them, we don't do anything there now except rent military bases. Just like we do in countless other countries that we don't try to dominate and absorb as our own. Again, it's lazy to try to equate what Russia is doing now with any of the sins we've committed over the past 100 years. You need to go back to the 1800's to find the equivalent of what Russia is doing, assuming you don't use any of the World Wars as examples. Russia is still playing the Great Game when that's been over for more than a century.

[houndawg]

Huh? You have more lies to spread? Russia doesn't have international law on their side. There's no rules-based theory that justifies them unprovokingly attacking another sovereign country, holding sham elections in areas of land they stole after they killed off or drove off much of the population that had lived there, and then claiming those areas as now part of your own country. International law says exactly the opposite of that. And nothing we did in Iraq or Afghanistan compare at all to what Russia has now done in Ukraine. Every setback Russia has experienced in this war has been explained away by you as part of the master plan. They meant to be turned away from Kiev. They meant to run out of personnel and needed to install a not-well-received draft of a couple hundred thousand more cannon fodder. They meant to let Ukraine take back territory they just claimed as part of Mother Russia. You won't ever think you're wrong because that would imply that you're thinking critically, which clearly you are not doing. You're a bot, and not a particularly good one.

Bombing the electrical grid before the invasion kinda compares, or is it ok when we do it?

Invasion?

[houndawg]

Did we invade, clear out the inhabitants, hold a sham election, and then take and keep territory that we considered our own? Do we have several states now that are from territory we stole from Iraq or Afghanistan? Of course not. Russia is stealing territory from a neighbor because they wanted it. They weren't provoked, they were not at risk of being invaded themselves. They just wanted to expand their empire. Nothing we did with Iraq or Afghanistan is anything like that. It's a false equivalency for people who like rooting for the Russians.

I dunno but we sure bombed them to shit. We did hold elections once we "liberated" Iraq, no? We still have bases in Iraq or no? And ever hear of the Kurds?

Unfortunately for your narrative, there are more similarities than you'd like to admit. Russia is doing what they want because no one will stop them, kinda like how we rolled various ME nations...because no one could stop us (except for some sandal clad goat herders with AKs).

Sorry guys, we've lost the plot long ago. And no, this doesn't justify Russia's actions but we've lost the moral high ground on the use of military force aboard long ago.

So it is an invasion now...? Its so confusing...

[SeattleGriz]

I tend to believe guys like this guest, who don't froth at the mouth when telling me their version of events, as opposed to "45 minutes to a mushroom cloud", Russia collusion and most recently the destruction of NordStream to keep Germany "in line".

Not to mention you have many multiple diplomats who worked throughout this timeline and agree with his sentiments.

[Silenoz]

The star of Forgetting Sarah Marshall. Got it.

[SeattleGriz]

The star of Forgetting Sarah Marshall. Got it.

It's why I said "guest".

Jeffrey Sachs. He's been around the block a few times.

Jeffrey David Sachs (/sæks/) (born 5 November 1954)[4] is an American economist, academic, public policy analyst, and former director of The Earth Institute at Columbia University, where he holds the title of University Professor.[5][6] He is known for his work on sustainable development, economic development, and the fight to end poverty

[GannonFan]

The star of Forgetting Sarah Marshall. Got it.

Movie was awesome. Can't turn it off if it's on.

[kalm]

The star of Forgetting Sarah Marshall. Got it.

It's why I said "guest".

Jeffrey Sachs. He's been around the block a few times.

Jeffrey David Sachs (/sæks/) (born 5 November 1954)[4] is an American economist, academic, public policy analyst, and former director of The Earth Institute at Columbia University, where he holds the title of University Professor.[5][6] He is known for his work on sustainable development, economic development, and the fight to end poverty

Sachs and Brand have both gone off the deep end. I read one of Brand’s books too. Sad.

[houndawg]

Did we invade, clear out the inhabitants, hold a sham election, and then take and keep territory that we considered our own? Do we have several states now that are from territory we stole from Iraq or Afghanistan? Of course not. Russia is stealing territory from a neighbor because they wanted it. They weren't provoked, they were not at risk of being invaded themselves. They just wanted to expand their empire. Nothing we did with Iraq or Afghanistan is anything like that. It's a false equivalency for people who like rooting for the Russians.

I dunno but we sure bombed them to shit. We did hold elections once we "liberated" Iraq, no? We still have bases in Iraq or no? And ever hear of the Kurds?

Unfortunately for your narrative, there are more similarities than you'd like to admit. Russia is doing what they want because no one will stop them, kinda like how we rolled various ME nations...because no one could stop us (except for some sandal clad goat herders with AKs).

Sorry guys, we've lost the plot long ago. And no, this doesn't justify Russia's actions but we've lost the moral high ground on the use of military force aboard long ago.

We aren't using military force, Ukraine is using military force against an invader...or.....how can Russia's actions not be justified when this whole thing is Ukraines fault?

Compare, contrast, discuss

[houndawg]

I tend to believe guys like this guest, who don't froth at the mouth when telling me their version of events, as opposed to "45 minutes to a mushroom cloud", Russia collusion and most recently the destruction of NordStream to keep Germany "in line".

Not to mention you have many multiple diplomats who worked throughout this timeline and agree with his sentiments.

Seriously? You didn't swallow Cheney's "mushroom cloud" load.

Bullshit.

[SDHornet]

Bombing the electrical grid before the invasion kinda compares, or is it ok when we do it?

Invasion?

So then what would you call our actions into Iraq, a special military operation?

[SDHornet]

I dunno but we sure bombed them to shit. We did hold elections once we "liberated" Iraq, no? We still have bases in Iraq or no? And ever hear of the Kurds?

Unfortunately for your narrative, there are more similarities than you'd like to admit. Russia is doing what they want because no one will stop them, kinda like how we rolled various ME nations...because no one could stop us (except for some sandal clad goat herders with AKs).

Sorry guys, we've lost the plot long ago. And no, this doesn't justify Russia's actions but we've lost the moral high ground on the use of military force aboard long ago.

We don't own any of those countries, we don't run them, we don't do anything there now except rent military bases. Just like we do in countless other countries that we don't try to dominate and absorb as our own. Again, it's lazy to try to equate what Russia is doing now with any of the sins we've committed over the past 100 years. You need to go back to the 1800's to find the equivalent of what Russia is doing, assuming you don't use any of the World Wars as examples. Russia is still playing the Great Game when that's been over for more than a century.

Correct, and we don't own Ukraine nor have any defense treaties with them. So why are we giving them billions of dollars? I'm a fan of the US not being world police, unfortunately that means some of the worlds bullies are gonna do what they gonna do.

[SDHornet]

I dunno but we sure bombed them to shit. We did hold elections once we "liberated" Iraq, no? We still have bases in Iraq or no? And ever hear of the Kurds?

Unfortunately for your narrative, there are more similarities than you'd like to admit. Russia is doing what they want because no one will stop them, kinda like how we rolled various ME nations...because no one could stop us (except for some sandal clad goat herders with AKs).

Sorry guys, we've lost the plot long ago. And no, this doesn't justify Russia's actions but we've lost the moral high ground on the use of military force aboard long ago.

We aren't using military force, Ukraine is using military force against an invader...or.....how can Russia's actions not be justified when this whole thing is Ukraines fault?

Compare, contrast, discuss

Reports are NATO folks are manning/directing the HIMARS we sent them. Is that not direct involvement?

[SDHornet]

Moscow's forces have inflicted heavy losses on Ukrainian troops in the battle for Bakhmut in eastern Ukraine, according to an assessment that comes as NATO warned the war could escalate into "full-fledged" conflict between Russia and the alliance.

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine ... to-1766108

[Silenoz]

Moscow's forces have inflicted heavy losses on Ukrainian troops in the battle for Bakhmut in eastern Ukraine, according to an assessment that comes as NATO warned the war could escalate into "full-fledged" conflict between Russia and the alliance.

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine ... to-1766108

The ISW cited reports from Russian Telegram accounts that Ukraine's forces had "suffered heavy losses" and that Moscow's troops had struck forward Ukrainian positions northeast of the city.

Donetsk's regional governor, Pavlo Kyrylenko, has said that Russian forces were pressing on Bakhmut with daily attacks, despite taking heavy casualties. "You can best describe those attacks as cannon fodder," he added in televised comments. "They are mostly relying on infantry and less on armor, and they can't advance."

[∞∞∞]

Moscow's forces have inflicted heavy losses on Ukrainian troops in the battle for Bakhmut in eastern Ukraine, according to an assessment that comes as NATO warned the war could escalate into "full-fledged" conflict between Russia and the alliance.

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine ... to-1766108

I read a military analysis that Bakhmut has no strategic relevance. It's a city of 70,000 (now 10,000) that contributes nothing to the battlefield and has no natural resources besides salt mines, which are already plentiful and cheap. It seems like Putin just needs a "win" among the mounting losses and Bakhmut was the easiest option, but it's also proving to not be easy at all. They've been wasting effort for months and still haven't taken it.

And even if do, it'll be at a high cost. Seems like another military blunder to stroke Putin's fragile ego.

edit:

Putin continues to seem unwilling to pursue such a cessation of fighting, however. The Russian military is continuing offensive operations around Bakhmut and is—so far—denying itself the operational pause that would be consistent with best military practice. Putin’s current fixation with continuing offensive operations around Bakhmut and elsewhere is contributing to Ukraine’s ability to maintain the military initiative in other parts of the theater. Ukraine’s continued operational successes depend on Ukrainian forces’ ability to continue successive operations through the winter of 2022-2023 without interruption.[13]

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgr ... december-7

(by the way, the Institute for the Study of War is a think tank with some excellent analysis/updates regarding the war).

[Skjellyfetti]

Yeah, pretty sure Seattle and SD won't give ISW a second glance - they're convinced it's BS.

Maybe they'll give Moscow Times a chance. One of the only independent newspapers that hasn't been shut down (yet) in Russia.

Explainer: Why is Russia Trying So Hard to Capture the Small Ukrainian City of Bakhmut?

What appeal does Bakhmut hold for the Russian Armed Forces?
Seizing Bakhmut would give Russia a small, strategic foothold to launch a wider offensive against the Ukrainian-held cities of Sloviansk and Kramatorsk to the north.

Bakhmut also sits on a crucial highway that runs diagonally through Ukraine’s Donetsk and Luhansk regions.

But Russia’s focus on the city has nonetheless baffled analysts, who point out that the battle to take Bakhmut has cost Moscow dearly in both men and equipment.

“No one really understands the significance of Bakhmut,” said defense analyst Konrad Muzyka of Poland-based Rochan Consulting.

“No one can really explain… why Russians are fighting so ferociously for it.”

One possible reason for Russia pouring so many men and resources into the battle is that it has become a question of military prestige — after months of trying to take the city, Moscow is reluctant to admit defeat.

Russian forces have been attempting to seize Bakhmut in Ukraine’s Donetsk region for at least seven months. But in recent weeks, the battle in and around the city has become one of the fiercest of the nine-month war in Ukraine.

Bakhmut, which sits above a vast salt mine and is famed for its Soviet-era winery, has been badly damaged — and in parts totally destroyed — by constant shelling.

Russia’s determination to take Bakhmut has puzzled many observers, who question Moscow’s huge commitment of resources to the fight despite the city’s relative lack of strategic significance.

The Moscow Times considers why the Kremlin might be so keen to capture the city.

“Russia has been fighting for such a long time, they think they may as well do everything they can to capture Bakhmut,” Muzyka told The Moscow Times.

Which Russian troops are leading the assault?

The fighting is being led by Russian mercenary company Wagner, backed up by Russian artillery, units of mobilized soldiers and air power.

Headed by Russian businessman Yevgeny Prigozhin, Wagner employs mercenaries, including thousands recruited from Russian prisons, and has seen its profile rise greatly since the invasion of Ukraine began.

“When Wagner conducts attacks [in Bakhmut], the first wave is former inmates, the second is Russian mobilized servicemen, then the third wave is regular Wagner troops,” Muzyka said.

However, the head-on assaults carried out by Russian forces in and around Bakhmut have, so far, been largely repelled by the Ukrainian military.

“It’s like a conveyor belt,” one Ukrainian machine-gunner deployed in Bakhmut said in an interview with the Financial Times last week.

What does Wagner have to gain from seizing Bakhmut?

Following a number of embarrassing setbacks in recent months, the Russian military appears to be under growing pressure from the Kremlin for battlefield success.

Should Wagner finally capture Bakhmut, it would mark a significant victory for the mercenary group and boost Prigozhin’s reputation domestically, according to Mark Galeotti, an expert on Russian security at University College London.

“There used to be something of a military rationale when the Russians were trying to advance … but it has long since been more about bloody-mindedness and Prigozhin’s desire — need — for a victory,” Galeotti told The Moscow Times.

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/12/ ... mut-a79672


They'll also dismiss this as BS. Pretty much confirming that only Russian state media (or their megaphones) are legit.






Edit:
ISW from September dumbfounded that Russia was devoting so many resources trying to take insignificant Bakhmut instead of defending against Ukrainian counteroffensives in Kharkiv and Kherson. Oops!

Spoiler: show

Spoiler: show