The Ukraine Crisis

[BDKJMU]

Trump and the current GOP are fascists and I will gladly trot that out every time because it's worth defending against.

Play this "middle" game all you want until people like BDK ban women's rights, LGBTQ people, books, ideas, religious freedoms; or attack the seat of government; or call for the death of elected representatives; or question, undermine, and block our elections. Oh wait...

But yeah, all sides are the same.

[BDKJMU]

I see Zelensky comes from the Belichik/Fetterman school of dress..

[kalm]

Trump and the current GOP are fascists and I will gladly trot that out every time because it's worth defending against.

Play this "middle" game all you want until people like BDK ban women's rights, LGBTQ people, books, ideas, religious freedoms; or attack the seat of government; or call for the death of elected representatives; or question, undermine, and block our elections. Oh wait...

But yeah, all sides are the same.

Fascists are worth defending against. trump is worth defending against. But trump and the current GOP are not fascists. Not all wannabe cultural conservatives, playing on people's fears are fascists. To push that narrative is to play on people's fears.

You know what? You’re winning me over.

Instead of fascist we should just refer to MAGA as a cult of personality driven, democracy denying, violent, nationalistic, racist, corporatist, strong man loving movement instead.

[GannonFan]

Fascists are worth defending against. trump is worth defending against. But trump and the current GOP are not fascists. Not all wannabe cultural conservatives, playing on people's fears are fascists. To push that narrative is to play on people's fears.

You know what? You’re winning me over.

Instead of fascist we should just refer to MAGA as a cult of personality driven, democracy denying, violent, nationalistic, racist, corporatist, strong man loving movement instead.

Perfect. Please start doing that.

[SeattleGriz]

I see Zelensky comes from the Belichik/Fetterman school of dress..

[BDKJMU]

I see Zelensky comes from the Belichik/Fetterman school of dress..

[houndawg]

What you're doing is a bit of verbal jiu jitsu - deflecting from the strategic to the tactical. Which is of course understandable, and your only option since Russia has already lost in the Big Picture - there won't be a puppet government in Kyiv, Moscow is bogged down in a quagmire that they can't afford, with a military that is poorly trained, poorly equipped, performing embarrassingly against the Ukrainian military, and neck deep in atrocities against civilians.

All we have to do is spend them into oblivion, just like we did with the Soviet Union in 1989.

Do you think Europe is good with that? Keeping your house warm is pretty pricey over there right now.

As opposed to being invaded by Russia?

Yeah, I think they're good with that..

[SDHornet]

I pop my head back in here and see another meltdown by Trip. Sometimes things never change.

Ukraine under Zelensky has gone full totalitarian, funny to see someone argue this proxy war against Russia is about freedom.

[SDHornet]

SD and Seattle are itching to sign up for Wagner in time for their final assault on Bakhmut.

Nah, Ukraine isn't my fight. I couldn't care less how many Ukrainians and Russians die in this war.

BTW, looking like the Ukrainian defenses around Bakhmut are starting the fall apart and various folks are reporting some major stacking of bodies in this battle. I guess there is some credence to those who refer to the battle for Bakhmut as the Ukranian Verdun after all.

[SDHornet]

Congress wouldn't approve Rand Paul's push for an inspector general to monitor where the Ukraine money is going/being spent. Why not? Also Russia's entire military budget for 2023 is reported to be $84 billion.

Interesting, isn't it.

[Silenoz]

SD and Seattle are itching to sign up for Wagner in time for their final assault on Bakhmut.

Nah, Ukraine isn't my fight. I couldn't care less how many Ukrainians and Russians die in this war.

BTW, looking like the Ukrainian defenses around Bakhmut are starting the fall apart and various folks are reporting some major stacking of bodies in this battle. I guess there is some credence to those who refer to the battle for Bakhmut as the Ukranian Verdun after all.

Yeah, keep telling yourself that. I guess the Kherson fiasco didn't teach you anything. Stacks of (Russian) bodies indeed.

And keep telling yourself you haven't chosen a horse in this race. You've been rah rah'ing the Russian propaganda since day one

[SeattleGriz]

Interesting read from eight years ago. It's the same playbook as Russia blowing up their own pipeline.

https://consortiumnews.com/2021/12/08/r ... n-ukraine/

The original lie behind Official Washington’s latest “group think” was that Russian President Vladimir Putin instigated the crisis in Ukraine as part of some diabolical scheme to reclaim the territory of the defunct Soviet Union, including Estonia and other Baltic states. Though not a shred of U.S. intelligence supported this scenario, all the “smart people” of Washington just “knew” it to be true.

Yet, the once-acknowledged though soon forgotten reality was that the crisis was provoked last year by the European Union proposing an association agreement with Ukraine while U.S. neocons and other hawkish politicos and pundits envisioned using the Ukraine gambit as a way to undermine Putin inside Russia.

The plan was even announced by U.S. neocons such as National Endowment for Democracy President Carl Gershman who took to the op-ed page of The Washington Post nearly a year ago to call Ukraine “the biggest prize” and an important interim step toward eventually toppling Putin in Russia.

[SeattleGriz]

Yeah, pretty sure Seattle and SD won't give ISW a second glance - they're convinced it's BS.

Maybe they'll give Moscow Times a chance. One of the only independent newspapers that hasn't been shut down (yet) in Russia.

Explainer: Why is Russia Trying So Hard to Capture the Small Ukrainian City of Bakhmut?

What appeal does Bakhmut hold for the Russian Armed Forces?
Seizing Bakhmut would give Russia a small, strategic foothold to launch a wider offensive against the Ukrainian-held cities of Sloviansk and Kramatorsk to the north.

Bakhmut also sits on a crucial highway that runs diagonally through Ukraine’s Donetsk and Luhansk regions.

But Russia’s focus on the city has nonetheless baffled analysts, who point out that the battle to take Bakhmut has cost Moscow dearly in both men and equipment.

“No one really understands the significance of Bakhmut,” said defense analyst Konrad Muzyka of Poland-based Rochan Consulting.

“No one can really explain… why Russians are fighting so ferociously for it.”

One possible reason for Russia pouring so many men and resources into the battle is that it has become a question of military prestige — after months of trying to take the city, Moscow is reluctant to admit defeat.

Russian forces have been attempting to seize Bakhmut in Ukraine’s Donetsk region for at least seven months. But in recent weeks, the battle in and around the city has become one of the fiercest of the nine-month war in Ukraine.

Bakhmut, which sits above a vast salt mine and is famed for its Soviet-era winery, has been badly damaged — and in parts totally destroyed — by constant shelling.

Russia’s determination to take Bakhmut has puzzled many observers, who question Moscow’s huge commitment of resources to the fight despite the city’s relative lack of strategic significance.

The Moscow Times considers why the Kremlin might be so keen to capture the city.

“Russia has been fighting for such a long time, they think they may as well do everything they can to capture Bakhmut,” Muzyka told The Moscow Times.

Which Russian troops are leading the assault?

The fighting is being led by Russian mercenary company Wagner, backed up by Russian artillery, units of mobilized soldiers and air power.

Headed by Russian businessman Yevgeny Prigozhin, Wagner employs mercenaries, including thousands recruited from Russian prisons, and has seen its profile rise greatly since the invasion of Ukraine began.

“When Wagner conducts attacks [in Bakhmut], the first wave is former inmates, the second is Russian mobilized servicemen, then the third wave is regular Wagner troops,” Muzyka said.

However, the head-on assaults carried out by Russian forces in and around Bakhmut have, so far, been largely repelled by the Ukrainian military.

“It’s like a conveyor belt,” one Ukrainian machine-gunner deployed in Bakhmut said in an interview with the Financial Times last week.

What does Wagner have to gain from seizing Bakhmut?

Following a number of embarrassing setbacks in recent months, the Russian military appears to be under growing pressure from the Kremlin for battlefield success.

Should Wagner finally capture Bakhmut, it would mark a significant victory for the mercenary group and boost Prigozhin’s reputation domestically, according to Mark Galeotti, an expert on Russian security at University College London.

“There used to be something of a military rationale when the Russians were trying to advance … but it has long since been more about bloody-mindedness and Prigozhin’s desire — need — for a victory,” Galeotti told The Moscow Times.

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/12/ ... mut-a79672


They'll also dismiss this as BS. Pretty much confirming that only Russian state media (or their megaphones) are legit.






Edit:
ISW from September dumbfounded that Russia was devoting so many resources trying to take insignificant Bakhmut instead of defending against Ukrainian counteroffensives in Kharkiv and Kherson. Oops!

Spoiler: show

Spoiler: show

Hmm. Seems ISW doesn't know shit. Why you of all people would believe a neocon site in which Bill Kristol is involved with, I have no idea.

Not sure if there is anything to it, but was reading the salt mines were large enough to hold quite a bit of weaponry and troops safely. Seems like a solid target, especially when the Ukrainians we're dying at an 8:1 ratio compared to the Russians.

Lastly, because I've said it before, still believe a Russian offensive is coming once the ground freezes. Heard it's been warmer than usual and ground might not freeze until February.

[Skjellyfetti]

Yeah, pretty sure Seattle and SD won't give ISW a second glance - they're convinced it's BS.

Maybe they'll give Moscow Times a chance. One of the only independent newspapers that hasn't been shut down (yet) in Russia.


https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/12/ ... mut-a79672


They'll also dismiss this as BS. Pretty much confirming that only Russian state media (or their megaphones) are legit.






Edit:
ISW from September dumbfounded that Russia was devoting so many resources trying to take insignificant Bakhmut instead of defending against Ukrainian counteroffensives in Kharkiv and Kherson. Oops!

Spoiler: show

Spoiler: show

Hmm. Seems ISW doesn't know shit. Why you of all people would believe a neocon site in which Bill Kristol is involved with, I have no idea.

Not sure if there is anything to it, but was reading the salt mines were large enough to hold quite a bit of weaponry and troops safely. Seems like a solid target, especially when the Ukrainians we're dying at an 8:1 ratio compared to the Russians.

Lastly, because I've said it before, still believe a Russian offensive is coming once the ground freezes. Heard it's been warmer than usual and ground might not freeze until February.

The post you're quoting is talking about Bakhmut.

You're talking about Soledar.

[SeattleGriz]

Hmm. Seems ISW doesn't know shit. Why you of all people would believe a neocon site in which Bill Kristol is involved with, I have no idea.

Not sure if there is anything to it, but was reading the salt mines were large enough to hold quite a bit of weaponry and troops safely. Seems like a solid target, especially when the Ukrainians we're dying at an 8:1 ratio compared to the Russians.

Lastly, because I've said it before, still believe a Russian offensive is coming once the ground freezes. Heard it's been warmer than usual and ground might not freeze until February.

The post you're quoting is talking about Bakhmut.

You're talking about Soledar.

Could have been more clear. Was focused on the salt mine aspect.

But still don't understand how a guy like Bill Kristol, who I'm sure you absolutely hated up until he got exposed by Trump, is someone you now trust.

[houndawg]

Yeah, pretty sure Seattle and SD won't give ISW a second glance - they're convinced it's BS.

Maybe they'll give Moscow Times a chance. One of the only independent newspapers that hasn't been shut down (yet) in Russia.


https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/12/ ... mut-a79672


They'll also dismiss this as BS. Pretty much confirming that only Russian state media (or their megaphones) are legit.






Edit:
ISW from September dumbfounded that Russia was devoting so many resources trying to take insignificant Bakhmut instead of defending against Ukrainian counteroffensives in Kharkiv and Kherson. Oops!

Spoiler: show

Spoiler: show

Hmm. Seems ISW doesn't know shit. Why you of all people would believe a neocon site in which Bill Kristol is involved with, I have no idea.

Not sure if there is anything to it, but was reading the salt mines were large enough to hold quite a bit of weaponry and troops safely. Seems like a solid target, especially when the Ukrainians we're dying at an 8:1 ratio compared to the Russians.

Lastly, because I've said it before, still believe a Russian offensive is coming once the ground freezes. Heard it's been warmer than usual and ground might not freeze until February.

"offensive".

Poorly equipped conscripts ,forced into combat hungry and cold, unreliable weapons, useless leadership, and an even chance that the round that kills them was fired from a weapon abandoned by a Russian excuse for a soldier.

[houndawg]

The post you're quoting is talking about Bakhmut.

You're talking about Soledar.

Could have been more clear. Was focused on the salt mine aspect.

But still don't understand how a guy like Bill Kristol, who I'm sure you absolutely hated up until he got exposed by Trump, is someone you now trust.

Bill Kristol has never been right about anything for as long as he's been posing as an expert - that should tell you how clear it must be who the bad guy is in this situation for him to actually be right for literally once.

[SeattleGriz]

Hmm. Seems ISW doesn't know shit. Why you of all people would believe a neocon site in which Bill Kristol is involved with, I have no idea.

Not sure if there is anything to it, but was reading the salt mines were large enough to hold quite a bit of weaponry and troops safely. Seems like a solid target, especially when the Ukrainians we're dying at an 8:1 ratio compared to the Russians.

Lastly, because I've said it before, still believe a Russian offensive is coming once the ground freezes. Heard it's been warmer than usual and ground might not freeze until February.

"offensive".

Poorly equipped conscripts ,forced into combat hungry and cold, unreliable weapons, useless leadership, and an even chance that the round that kills them was fired from a weapon abandoned by a Russian excuse for a soldier.

Dude. You do know Soledar has fallen don't you?

[kalm]

"offensive".

Poorly equipped conscripts ,forced into combat hungry and cold, unreliable weapons, useless leadership, and an even chance that the round that kills them was fired from a weapon abandoned by a Russian excuse for a soldier.

Dude. You do know Soledar has fallen don't you?

So the Russians captured a town of 10,000 people in a region they’ve already annexed?

[Skjellyfetti]

"offensive".

Poorly equipped conscripts ,forced into combat hungry and cold, unreliable weapons, useless leadership, and an even chance that the round that kills them was fired from a weapon abandoned by a Russian excuse for a soldier.

Dude. You do know Soledar has fallen don't you?

Lol. You seem awful excited about Soledar.

Ukrainians take Kherson, prewar population ~300k and a regional capital. The only regional capital captured by Russians in the last year. "Meh. Strategic withdrawal."

Russians take Soledar. Population 10k. You hadn't heard of it a week ago. Seems you just confused it with Bakhmut. And you're excited. Great victory for the motherland!!!

[SeattleGriz]

Dude. You do know Soledar has fallen don't you?

So the Russians captured a town of 10,000 people in a region they’ve already annexed?

Meat grinder. That was the point. Ukraine is hurting big time and just lost something that apparently meant something to them.

[SeattleGriz]

Dude. You do know Soledar has fallen don't you?

Lol. You seem awful excited about Soledar.

Ukrainians take Kherson, prewar population ~300k and a regional capital. The only regional capital captured by Russians in the last year. "Meh. Strategic withdrawal."

Russians take Soledar. Population 10k. You hadn't heard of it a week ago. Seems you just confused it with Bakhmut. And you're excited. Great victory for the motherland!!!

Defending land that would cost huge amounts of bodies to defend never sounds like a good idea. As stated I'm reading Ukraine lost men at an 8:1 ratio.

Denazification and demilitarization was always the stated goal.

No excitement here, just pointing out the mainstream media is full of shit.

[kalm]

Lol. You seem awful excited about Soledar.

Ukrainians take Kherson, prewar population ~300k and a regional capital. The only regional capital captured by Russians in the last year. "Meh. Strategic withdrawal."

Russians take Soledar. Population 10k. You hadn't heard of it a week ago. Seems you just confused it with Bakhmut. And you're excited. Great victory for the motherland!!!

Defending land that would cost huge amounts of bodies to defend never sounds like a good idea. As stated I'm reading Ukraine lost men at an 8:1 ratio.

Denazification and demilitarization was always the stated goal.

No excitement here, just pointing out the mainstream media is full of shit.

Institute of war is msm? Go ahead and post up your sources (I noticed you rarely do).

[houndawg]

So the Russians captured a town of 10,000 people in a region they’ve already annexed?

Meat grinder. That was the point. Ukraine is hurting big time and just lost something that apparently meant something to them.

They haven't lost anything until the fighting is done.

Its like the stock market.

[SeattleGriz]

Defending land that would cost huge amounts of bodies to defend never sounds like a good idea. As stated I'm reading Ukraine lost men at an 8:1 ratio.

Denazification and demilitarization was always the stated goal.

No excitement here, just pointing out the mainstream media is full of shit.

Institute of war is msm? Go ahead and post up your sources (I noticed you rarely do).

Institute of War is a propaganda group for neocons. More grift for Bill Kristol and his Lincoln Project type buddies. Didn't mean to imply they were MSM, but the MSM is full of shit and after the last five years of you buying everything they sell, can't understand why you would keep trying to kick that football Charlie Brown.

My main source of information is retired Col Douglas Mc Gregor. Stated that a long time ago.

M