Obama to seek repeal of "Don't ask, Don't Tell"

[BDKJMU]

And go back to the timeline and read about the 3 years of reports, meetings, studies, testimonies, etc. before Truman's excecutive order.

Obama has taken that step. Quit your bitching.

Your kinda distoring history here. Desegregation of the military wasn't something that was easily evolving and Truman's Executive Order was just a coup de tat (sp) - Truman had to buck the system and the Executive Order did that - it needed something of that magnitude to push it along. Just as an Executive Order from Obama would work today. And it's not like we haven't talked about and studied this issue - heck, this has been a standing issue for almost 15 years now - why do we need to have another year or two of studying and debating the issue? Just get it done - issue the Executive Order and the military will go about their job of executing the order. It may take another 3-5 years to finally say that we're basically there, but let's start the clock now. No sense dragging feet on this one - issue the Executive Order.

May'be because we're in the middle of a War???

[Ibanez]

Your kinda distoring history here. Desegregation of the military wasn't something that was easily evolving and Truman's Executive Order was just a coup de tat (sp) - Truman had to buck the system and the Executive Order did that - it needed something of that magnitude to push it along. Just as an Executive Order from Obama would work today. And it's not like we haven't talked about and studied this issue - heck, this has been a standing issue for almost 15 years now - why do we need to have another year or two of studying and debating the issue? Just get it done - issue the Executive Order and the military will go about their job of executing the order. It may take another 3-5 years to finally say that we're basically there, but let's start the clock now. No sense dragging feet on this one - issue the Executive Order.

May'be because we're in the middle of a War???

We have an overstretched military force as it is. You can get more people in that feel that can't be themselves. Now, I fully expect to hear about some 20 yr old corporal harass a gay man. But I also expect to see the first cases be punished severely. And I think that most people today know some gay men and women and the general population is growing more accepting. If you're going to be an ignorant, POS then we don't need you. If you're going to harass your own fellow soldier, you will most likely hurt a POW and hurt the American image.

Just my

[BDKJMU]

May'be because we're in the middle of a War???

We have an overstretched military force as it is. You can get more people in that feel that can't be themselves. Now, I fully expect to hear about some 20 yr old corporal harass a gay man. But I also expect to see the first cases be punished severely. And I think that most people today know some gay men and women and the general population is growing more accepting. If you're going to be an ignorant, POS then we don't need you. If you're going to harass your own fellow soldier, you will most likely hurt a POW and hurt the American image.

Just my

Yes, we have an overstretched military as it is. But that has nothing to do with DADT. And repealing DADT will have little to no affect on the size of the military. Like I said in an earlier post, in 1990 we had an active duty force of around 2.0 million to today's about 1.5 million. And that was before DADT when everyone was asked.

[Ibanez]

We have an overstretched military force as it is. You can get more people in that feel that can't be themselves. Now, I fully expect to hear about some 20 yr old corporal harass a gay man. But I also expect to see the first cases be punished severely. And I think that most people today know some gay men and women and the general population is growing more accepting. If you're going to be an ignorant, POS then we don't need you. If you're going to harass your own fellow soldier, you will most likely hurt a POW and hurt the American image.

Just my

Yes, we have an overstretched military as it is. But that has nothing to do with DADT. And repealing DADT will have little to no affect on the size of the military. Like I said in an earlier post, in 1990 we had an active duty force of around 2.0 million to today's about 1.5 million. And that was before DADT when everyone was asked.

So, personally, what is your aversion? Do you think you'll be in the showers and afraid that the gay guy will look at your cock? Or that he won't say anything unlike the straight guy that will look at your cock and make jokes?

[Purple For Life]

Whomever wanted links, here they are.

http://carloz.newsvine.com/_news/2009/1 ... hey-defend
http://www.veteransforcommonsense.org/i ... hryn-joyce
http://community.feministing.com/2009/1 ... y-rep.html
http://www.religiondispatches.org/archi ... ey_defend/

Would anyone like to retract their statements now?

[bobbythekidd]

You really think that during a fire fight, some gay guy is going to be more concerned with fucking you than saving his own life? Gay people are in the military for the same reasons as straight people. They aren't there soley to fuck Sailors, Soldiers and Marines. It comes down to their personal safety, not thier ability to perform in theater. It can be done, you think blacks were openly accepted early on?

Mark... That's not he issue. I would not be worried about the gay guy wanting to suck me in that instance. He should be worried that I am going to have his back. Same was the problem faced when allowing blacks in. It was generally felt that the two races would not cover for each other. They were first only allowed to do manual labor. Then we had units like the 555 when blacks were given the chance to fight. It was a decade later it started to level out.

Until enough people get over the hatred of gays, it's not going to work. One day it will work, just not yet.

Women are another can of worms... I don't hate them, but they have no business in the military.

[Skjellyfetti]

I don't think women have any business in combat roles... but, they aren't put in combat roles.

Heard an interesting episode of This American Life recently about life onboard an aircraft carrier... one of the best interviews was with this girl that stocked vending machines onboard the ship for 12 hours a day. What a shitty ass job... but, why shouldn't a woman be able to perform that job?

[bobbythekidd]

I don't think women have any business in combat roles... but, they aren't put in combat roles.

Heard an interesting episode of This American Life recently about life onboard an aircraft carrier... one of the best interviews was with this girl that stocked vending machines onboard the ship for 12 hours a day. What a shitty ass job... but, why shouldn't a woman be able to perform that job?

Tell that first part to Jessica Lynch. The second part is too complicated and involved for me to go into right now, but suffice it to say that on ship is the WORST place for them.

[Ibanez]

You really think that during a fire fight, some gay guy is going to be more concerned with fucking you than saving his own life? Gay people are in the military for the same reasons as straight people. They aren't there soley to fuck Sailors, Soldiers and Marines. It comes down to their personal safety, not thier ability to perform in theater. It can be done, you think blacks were openly accepted early on?

Mark... That's not he issue. I would not be worried about the gay guy wanting to suck me in that instance. He should be worried that I am going to have his back. Same was the problem faced when allowing blacks in. It was generally felt that the two races would not cover for each other. They were first only allowed to do manual labor. Then we had units like the 555 when blacks were given the chance to fight. It was a decade later it started to level out.

Until enough people get over the hatred of gays, it's not going to work. One day it will work, just not yet.

Women are another can of worms... I don't hate them, but they have no business in the military.

So like I said, thier ability to perform? Really, can they be trusted?

[Ibanez]

I guess This is better than...

[Ibanez]

I don't think women have any business in combat roles... but, they aren't put in combat roles.

Heard an interesting episode of This American Life recently about life onboard an aircraft carrier... one of the best interviews was with this girl that stocked vending machines onboard the ship for 12 hours a day. What a shitty ass job... but, why shouldn't a woman be able to perform that job?

Tell that first part to Jessica Lynch. The second part is too complicated and involved for me to go into right now, but suffice it to say that on ship is the WORST place for them.

Now that I do agree with. THe ship is an extremley hostile work enviroment. But, if they want to hang with the lions, I mean boys, then it's thier rape case...I mean funeral.

[Col Hogan]

Whomever wanted links, here they are.

http://carloz.newsvine.com/_news/2009/1 ... hey-defend
http://www.veteransforcommonsense.org/i ... hryn-joyce
http://community.feministing.com/2009/1 ... y-rep.html
http://www.religiondispatches.org/archi ... ey_defend/

Would anyone like to retract their statements now?

They appear to be from a liberal source, so they can't be too credible...

Get me some links from a conservative source...

[Ibanez]

Whomever wanted links, here they are.

http://carloz.newsvine.com/_news/2009/1 ... hey-defend
http://www.veteransforcommonsense.org/i ... hryn-joyce
http://community.feministing.com/2009/1 ... y-rep.html
http://www.religiondispatches.org/archi ... ey_defend/

Would anyone like to retract their statements now?

They appear to be from a liberal source, so they can't be too credible...

Get me some links from a conservative source...

Are you fo real?!

[Col Hogan]

I don't think women have any business in combat roles... but, they aren't put in combat roles.

They aren't??? Shows what you know about the military...

They were in a holding pattern over Baghdad, their view of the city completely obscured by dense cloud cover. U.S. Air Force Capt. Kim Campbell and her flight leader, Lt. Col. Richard “Bino” Turner, had just refueled their A-10 fighters when they got the call:

Troops with the U.S. Army’s 3rd Infantry Division were under attack.

“We knew that once we descended below the weather, we were in a much more vulnerable situation,” Campbell recalled of that day in April 2003. “Sure enough, we started taking fire. We could see bursts coming up around us and smoke.

“It was eye-opening, to say the least.”

Campbell, then 27, made a couple of passes around the target area, firing high-explosive rockets at Iraqi Republican Guard troops. Return fire stopped, and she and Turner began moving away from the combat area.

“As I was coming off target, that was when I felt and heard a very loud explosion in the back of the aircraft,” Campbell recalled. “I knew immediately what happened. … I felt the jet shake pretty violently, and then it nosed over towards the ground, and at that point it wasn’t responding to any of my control inputs.”

With caution lights flashing, Campbell saw that the plane’s hydraulic gauges were at zero: No brakes, no steering, no control over the aircraft.

“I looked down at the ground and saw Baghdad down below me … where I had just been firing at enemy forces, and thought that this would be really bad if I had to eject here.”

Campbell couldn’t see the hundreds of holes in her A-10’s tail, but she knew the plane was built to take fire. She flipped a single switch to convert the aircraft to manual control.

http://www.americanvalor.net/heroes/332




I'm pretty sure Captain Campbell thought she was in combat...

The two soldiers crept along the trench line, bullets thumping into the dirt around them. One was a lanky family man, 36, with two young sons and a 15-year career at International Paper Co. The other was a petite, single woman, 23, the floor manager at a Nashville shoe store.

Sgt. Leigh Ann Hester handed Staff Sgt. Timothy Nein a grenade. He had the better arm. Nein hurled it at the insurgents, who were crouched in the same trench, firing their AK-47 rifles at the Americans in the early afternoon.

Hester and Nein inched forward, the two recalled, Hester firing her black M-4 assault rifle next to Nein's ear. By the time the soldiers climbed out of the trench, their lips were chapped from the heat, their faces smeared with dirt, and four insurgents lay dead or dying nearby.

"I really don't know who killed who," said Hester, who stands 5-foot-4, speaks with a twang and walks with a swagger. "He could have got three, I could have got one, I don't know. I know for sure I got at least one."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01263.html

And I'm pretty sure Sgt. Leigh Ann Hester thought she was in combat...she won the SIlver Star, one step below the Congressional Medal of Honor...

[GannonFan]

Obama should at least wait till we're not at war before trying his social experiment on the military.

Strange enough, the desegregation that Truman ordered in 1948 didn't really take off and start happening in earnest until we entered the Korean War. There was very little movement on the issue during peacetime, even with the Executive Order issued.

[Ibanez]

I don't think women have any business in combat roles... but, they aren't put in combat roles.

They aren't??? Shows what you know about the military...

They were in a holding pattern over Baghdad, their view of the city completely obscured by dense cloud cover. U.S. Air Force Capt. Kim Campbell and her flight leader, Lt. Col. Richard “Bino” Turner, had just refueled their A-10 fighters when they got the call:

Troops with the U.S. Army’s 3rd Infantry Division were under attack.

“We knew that once we descended below the weather, we were in a much more vulnerable situation,” Campbell recalled of that day in April 2003. “Sure enough, we started taking fire. We could see bursts coming up around us and smoke.

“It was eye-opening, to say the least.”

Campbell, then 27, made a couple of passes around the target area, firing high-explosive rockets at Iraqi Republican Guard troops. Return fire stopped, and she and Turner began moving away from the combat area.

“As I was coming off target, that was when I felt and heard a very loud explosion in the back of the aircraft,” Campbell recalled. “I knew immediately what happened. … I felt the jet shake pretty violently, and then it nosed over towards the ground, and at that point it wasn’t responding to any of my control inputs.”

With caution lights flashing, Campbell saw that the plane’s hydraulic gauges were at zero: No brakes, no steering, no control over the aircraft.

“I looked down at the ground and saw Baghdad down below me … where I had just been firing at enemy forces, and thought that this would be really bad if I had to eject here.”

Campbell couldn’t see the hundreds of holes in her A-10’s tail, but she knew the plane was built to take fire. She flipped a single switch to convert the aircraft to manual control.

http://www.americanvalor.net/heroes/332




I'm pretty sure Captain Campbell thought she was in combat...

The two soldiers crept along the trench line, bullets thumping into the dirt around them. One was a lanky family man, 36, with two young sons and a 15-year career at International Paper Co. The other was a petite, single woman, 23, the floor manager at a Nashville shoe store.

Sgt. Leigh Ann Hester handed Staff Sgt. Timothy Nein a grenade. He had the better arm. Nein hurled it at the insurgents, who were crouched in the same trench, firing their AK-47 rifles at the Americans in the early afternoon.

Hester and Nein inched forward, the two recalled, Hester firing her black M-4 assault rifle next to Nein's ear. By the time the soldiers climbed out of the trench, their lips were chapped from the heat, their faces smeared with dirt, and four insurgents lay dead or dying nearby.

"I really don't know who killed who," said Hester, who stands 5-foot-4, speaks with a twang and walks with a swagger. "He could have got three, I could have got one, I don't know. I know for sure I got at least one."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01263.html

And I'm pretty sure Sgt. Leigh Ann Hester thought she was in combat...she won the SIlver Star, one step below the Congressional Medal of Honor...

That's different....duH!

[Skjellyfetti]

I said combat role... and I should have said ground combat role. My bad, Hogan.

Y'all know good and well women aren't allowed in ground combat ROLES... MOS, rating, etc.

Jessica Lynch was in the Quartermaster Corps and a supply clerk:

Subsistence supply clerks perform clerical and stock handling duties incident to funding, requisitioning, purchasing, receiving, accounting, and storing subsistence supplies required for troop consumption and/or for resale activities, units, and organizations. Typical duties of subsistence supply clerks arm to check incoming shipments, prepare reports of supplies received, prepare, edit, and consolidate back-orders for subsistence stores.

[bobbythekidd]

I said combat role... and I should have said ground combat role. My bad, Hogan.

Y'all know good and well women aren't allowed in ground combat ROLES... MOS, rating, etc.

Jessica Lynch was in the Quartermaster Corps and a supply clerk:

Subsistence supply clerks perform clerical and stock handling duties incident to funding, requisitioning, purchasing, receiving, accounting, and storing subsistence supplies required for troop consumption and/or for resale activities, units, and organizations. Typical duties of subsistence supply clerks arm to check incoming shipments, prepare reports of supplies received, prepare, edit, and consolidate back-orders for subsistence stores.

Thanks but when the bad guys are shooting at you, it's called combat.

[93henfan]

I said combat role... and I should have said ground combat role. My bad, Hogan.

Y'all know good and well women aren't allowed in ground combat ROLES... MOS, rating, etc.

Jessica Lynch was in the Quartermaster Corps and a supply clerk:

Subsistence supply clerks perform clerical and stock handling duties incident to funding, requisitioning, purchasing, receiving, accounting, and storing subsistence supplies required for troop consumption and/or for resale activities, units, and organizations. Typical duties of subsistence supply clerks arm to check incoming shipments, prepare reports of supplies received, prepare, edit, and consolidate back-orders for subsistence stores.

SK, anyone on a supply convoy in Iraq after mid-April 2003 was in a combat role, regardless of their MOS.

[bobbythekidd]

Hey KY,

Aircraft communications/navigation systems technician-trainees train for a specific aircraft communications/ navigation systems technician MOS through formal school training and/or OJT while under instruction and/or close supervision. Trainees also perform routine duties relative to inspection, maintenance, and repair of communications/navigation system components at the IMA level.

Aircraft communications systems technicians, IMA, at the IMA level, inspect, test, maintain, and repair components, assemblies, subassemblies, modules, cards, printed circuit boards, and ancillary equipment whose aggregate constitutes a complete aircraft communications system or subsystem.

Aircraft navigation systems technicians, IFF/Radar/TACAN, at the IMA level, inspect, test, maintain, and repair componants, assemblies, subassemblies, modules, cards, printed circuit boards, and ancillary equipment whose aggregate constitutes a complete aircraft navigation system or subsystem.

These are three of the MOS I did in the USMC. None of them read like I would have been a combat environment. Do you want to tell me that I was never in a combat situation?

[93henfan]

Hey KY,

Aircraft communications/navigation systems technician-trainees train for a specific aircraft communications/ navigation systems technician MOS through formal school training and/or OJT while under instruction and/or close supervision. Trainees also perform routine duties relative to inspection, maintenance, and repair of communications/navigation system components at the IMA level.

Aircraft communications systems technicians, IMA, at the IMA level, inspect, test, maintain, and repair components, assemblies, subassemblies, modules, cards, printed circuit boards, and ancillary equipment whose aggregate constitutes a complete aircraft communications system or subsystem.

Aircraft navigation systems technicians, IFF/Radar/TACAN, at the IMA level, inspect, test, maintain, and repair componants, assemblies, subassemblies, modules, cards, printed circuit boards, and ancillary equipment whose aggregate constitutes a complete aircraft navigation system or subsystem.

These are three of the MOS I did in the USMC. None of them read like I would have been a combat environment. Do you want to tell me that I was never in a combat situation?

Friggin' winger. (I was 7208 and 4066, btw)

[Skjellyfetti]

Hey KY,

Aircraft communications/navigation systems technician-trainees train for a specific aircraft communications/ navigation systems technician MOS through formal school training and/or OJT while under instruction and/or close supervision. Trainees also perform routine duties relative to inspection, maintenance, and repair of communications/navigation system components at the IMA level.

Aircraft communications systems technicians, IMA, at the IMA level, inspect, test, maintain, and repair components, assemblies, subassemblies, modules, cards, printed circuit boards, and ancillary equipment whose aggregate constitutes a complete aircraft communications system or subsystem.

Aircraft navigation systems technicians, IFF/Radar/TACAN, at the IMA level, inspect, test, maintain, and repair componants, assemblies, subassemblies, modules, cards, printed circuit boards, and ancillary equipment whose aggregate constitutes a complete aircraft navigation system or subsystem.

These are three of the MOS I did in the USMC. None of them read like I would have been a combat environment. Do you want to tell me that I was never in a combat situation?

Godfuckingdamnit. (I miss banging head on the wall emoticon)

I said role... and, no, I don't consider any of those "direct ground combat roles" which is the terminology I think the military uses.

Why shouldn't a woman be able to stock vending machines, repair equipment, etc.?

[Ibanez]

Hey KY,




These are three of the MOS I did in the USMC. None of them read like I would have been a combat environment. Do you want to tell me that I was never in a combat situation?

Godfuckingdamnit. (I miss banging head on the wall emoticon)

I said role... and, no, I don't consider any of those "direct ground combat roles" which is the terminology I think the military uses.

Why shouldn't a woman be able to stock vending machines, repair equipment, etc.?

The point they are making is that even though the MOS (which you suggested, not BTK) may not soundlike a combat role, it often times can be. You can not tell me that a woman flying a fighter is not in a combat role. SHE'S FLYING A GODDAMN GUNSHIP!

[Skjellyfetti]

You can not tell me that a woman flying a fighter is not in a combat role. SHE'S FLYING A GODDAMN GUNSHIP!

I said combat role... and I should have said ground combat role. My bad, Hogan.

"direct ground combat roles"

[93henfan]

You can not tell me that a woman flying a fighter is not in a combat role. SHE'S FLYING A GODDAMN GUNSHIP!

I said combat role... and I should have said ground combat role. My bad, Hogan.

"direct ground combat roles"

Ever heard the Marine Corps ethos "Every Marine a Rifleman"? Women cannot hold ground combat MOS's, but they most certainly have blurred the distinction in the war zones and have most definitely served in ground combat roles.

If you're arguing MOS separation, you win SK. If you're arguing reality on the battlefield, you lose.