MN fuel debacle: "Utopia, meet Reality"

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MN fuel debacle: "Utopia, meet Reality"

Post by travelinman67 »

More from the "Utopia meets reality" foolishness files. This is what happens when thoughtless libs attempt legislate from "rush through" hack science, ignoring traditional scientific method, and attempt to implement "utopia" red-doper-diaper-baby legislation.

...back to chemistry class...hopefully, this time sober.

http://www.startribune.com/local/377486 ... DCinchO7DU

Stalled Minnesota school buses fuel biodiesel mandate debate

Extreme cold and biodiesel fuel don't mix, as school districts and truckers found during the recent cold snap.

Bloomington Public Schools closed Friday after biodiesel fuel required to be used under state law gelled in about a dozen school buses due to subzero temperatures. The problem left some students at bus stops on Thursday morning for as long as 30 minutes or sitting on stalled buses.

In the south metro area, the Rosemount-Apple Valley-Eagan School District started school two hours late Friday after a similar problem with biodiesel fuel in about a dozen buses the day before.
...Much of the diesel fuel sold in Minnesota contains 2 percent biodiesel fuel, under legislation enacted in 2002 but that didn't essentially take effect until 2005 because of a production lag.

The requirement was adopted after a tough fight at the Legislature, with soybean farmers pushing for the mandate and trucking and other transportation industry groups in opposition, citing concerns about costs and performance of biodiesel.

The state has mandated the biodiesel blend increase to 5 percent starting this spring. Minnesota is one of three states, besides Oregon and Washington, that have biodiesel mandates.
...yet...as Bush heads out the door, the interior department finally releases their long awaited proposal for drilling realignment and expansion... http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/uswo ... ovider=rss ...just in time for incoming Sec. of Interior Salazar to announce, he intends on reinstating some of the drilling bans... http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/a ... rcID=42016 ...or delaying lease development pending long term studies on water usage for oil-shale extraction...http://www.postindependent.com/article/ ... o%20expire
Ken Salazar, who had slipped the oil shale ban into a spending bill passed last year, said on Wednesday that he might propose a requirement that before any leases may be issued there needs to be “quantification” of the water that is going to be used for oil shale development.

“That ought to be made a precondition of any Department of Interior action with respect to the issuance of those leases,” Salazar said. “I have lots of ideas with the aim in mind that I will protect Western Colorado against the potential ravages from commercial oil shale development.”

...Colo. Gov. Bill Ritter reacted strongly to what he called the White House’s “latest efforts to prematurely move forward with commercial oil-shale development in Colorado.”

In a letter to President Bush and U.S. Interior Department Secretary Dirk Kempthorne, Ritter wrote for them to “work with us, not against us, and together we can meet this nation’s energy needs and craft a responsible energy future for America.”
Yay!!!!! Eight more years of liberal obstructionist politics!!!!!

While America collapses. :(
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Re: MN fuel debacle: "Utopia, meet Reality"

Post by D1B »

Too long Tman. Didn't read it.
"Sarah Palin absolutely blew AWAY the audience tonight. If there was any doubt as to whether she was savvy enough, tough enough or smart enough to carry the mantle of Vice President, she put those fears to rest tonight. She took on Barack Obama DIRECTLY on every issue and exposed... She did it with warmth and humor, and came across as the every-person....it's becoming mroe and more clear that she was a genius pick for McCain."

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Re: MN fuel debacle: "Utopia, meet Reality"

Post by Col Hogan »

travelinman67 wrote:More from the "Utopia meets reality" foolishness files. This is what happens when thoughtless libs attempt legislate from "rush through" hack science, ignoring traditional scientific method, and attempt to implement "utopia" red-doper-diaper-baby legislation.

...back to chemistry class...hopefully, this time sober.

http://www.startribune.com/local/377486 ... DCinchO7DU

Stalled Minnesota school buses fuel biodiesel mandate debate

Extreme cold and biodiesel fuel don't mix, as school districts and truckers found during the recent cold snap.

Bloomington Public Schools closed Friday after biodiesel fuel required to be used under state law gelled in about a dozen school buses due to subzero temperatures. The problem left some students at bus stops on Thursday morning for as long as 30 minutes or sitting on stalled buses.

In the south metro area, the Rosemount-Apple Valley-Eagan School District started school two hours late Friday after a similar problem with biodiesel fuel in about a dozen buses the day before.
...Much of the diesel fuel sold in Minnesota contains 2 percent biodiesel fuel, under legislation enacted in 2002 but that didn't essentially take effect until 2005 because of a production lag.

The requirement was adopted after a tough fight at the Legislature, with soybean farmers pushing for the mandate and trucking and other transportation industry groups in opposition, citing concerns about costs and performance of biodiesel.

The state has mandated the biodiesel blend increase to 5 percent starting this spring. Minnesota is one of three states, besides Oregon and Washington, that have biodiesel mandates.
...yet...as Bush heads out the door, the interior department finally releases their long awaited proposal for drilling realignment and expansion... http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/uswo ... ovider=rss ...just in time for incoming Sec. of Interior Salazar to announce, he intends on reinstating some of the drilling bans... http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/a ... rcID=42016 ...or delaying lease development pending long term studies on water usage for oil-shale extraction...http://www.postindependent.com/article/ ... o%20expire
Ken Salazar, who had slipped the oil shale ban into a spending bill passed last year, said on Wednesday that he might propose a requirement that before any leases may be issued there needs to be “quantification” of the water that is going to be used for oil shale development.

“That ought to be made a precondition of any Department of Interior action with respect to the issuance of those leases,” Salazar said. “I have lots of ideas with the aim in mind that I will protect Western Colorado against the potential ravages from commercial oil shale development.”

...Colo. Gov. Bill Ritter reacted strongly to what he called the White House’s “latest efforts to prematurely move forward with commercial oil-shale development in Colorado.”

In a letter to President Bush and U.S. Interior Department Secretary Dirk Kempthorne, Ritter wrote for them to “work with us, not against us, and together we can meet this nation’s energy needs and craft a responsible energy future for America.”
Yay!!!!! Eight more years of liberal obstructionist politics!!!!!

While America collapses. :(
What scares me is crap like this can tarnish reputable ideas that have been thought out as we try to kick the fossil fuel habit...

Didn't ANYBODY in the science side think about the cold...in Minnesota, of all places...
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Re: MN fuel debacle: "Utopia, meet Reality"

Post by travelinman67 »

Col Hogan wrote: What scares me is crap like this can tarnish reputable ideas that have been thought out as we try to kick the fossil fuel habit...

Didn't ANYBODY in the science side think about the cold...in Minnesota, of all places...
What's ironic, is that a friend who's a commercial farmer near Spokane is gearing up to start producing bio diesel for their own use, and we were just talking about this in December...operational concerns during the winter. Seems like a no-brainer, course, then again, they've had extensive U.C. organic chemistry education and experience.
Like you said...still do-able, with some planning...kinda like the "two-season" gasoline they sell in CA...not really economically efficient, but in CA, who cares...

...BTW, Schwarznegger's office announced late Thursday, the state doesn't have enough money to pay tax refunds, so they're being "delayed". I should send Arnold a letter advising him the state's late, and as such a daily 18% interest will be charged after the first 10 days, to which another 20% will be added after 30 days, increasing to 50% after 90 days...the same rate they charge employers for late PR taxes. And if the state hasn't paid their bill in 6 months, I will initiate garnishment of Arnold's wages... :lol:
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Re: MN fuel debacle: "Utopia, meet Reality"

Post by Col Hogan »

travelinman67 wrote:
Col Hogan wrote: What scares me is crap like this can tarnish reputable ideas that have been thought out as we try to kick the fossil fuel habit...

Didn't ANYBODY in the science side think about the cold...in Minnesota, of all places...
What's ironic, is that a friend who's a commercial farmer near Spokane is gearing up to start producing bio diesel for their own use, and we were just talking about this in December...operational concerns during the winter. Seems like a no-brainer, course, then again, they've had extensive U.C. organic chemistry education and experience.
Like you said...still do-able, with some planning...kinda like the "two-season" gasoline they sell in CA...not really economically efficient, but in CA, who cares...

...BTW, Schwarznegger's office announced late Thursday, the state doesn't have enough money to pay tax refunds, so they're being "delayed". I should send Arnold a letter advising him the state's late, and as such a daily 18% interest will be charged after the first 10 days, to which another 20% will be added after 30 days, increasing to 50% after 90 days...the same rate they charge employers for late PR taxes. And if the state hasn't paid their bill in 6 months, I will initiate garnishment of Arnold's wages... :lol:
Make sure if you do it...(and if you don't someone else will)...you send a copy of the letter to the Associated Press...the cable and broadcast networks...the all-news radio stations and talk radio stations in San Fran and La-La land...

Might as well get some pub...cause you know you won't get the $$$$$... :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: MN fuel debacle: "Utopia, meet Reality"

Post by travelinman67 »

Col Hogan wrote:
travelinman67 wrote: What's ironic, is that a friend who's a commercial farmer near Spokane is gearing up to start producing bio diesel for their own use, and we were just talking about this in December...operational concerns during the winter. Seems like a no-brainer, course, then again, they've had extensive U.C. organic chemistry education and experience.
Like you said...still do-able, with some planning...kinda like the "two-season" gasoline they sell in CA...not really economically efficient, but in CA, who cares...

...BTW, Schwarznegger's office announced late Thursday, the state doesn't have enough money to pay tax refunds, so they're being "delayed". I should send Arnold a letter advising him the state's late, and as such a daily 18% interest will be charged after the first 10 days, to which another 20% will be added after 30 days, increasing to 50% after 90 days...the same rate they charge employers for late PR taxes. And if the state hasn't paid their bill in 6 months, I will initiate garnishment of Arnold's wages... :lol:
Make sure if you do it...(and if you don't someone else will)...you send a copy of the letter to the Associated Press...the cable and broadcast networks...the all-news radio stations and talk radio stations in San Fran and La-La land...

Might as well get some pub...cause you know you won't get the $$$$$... :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :lol: :lol: :lol:
In all fairness, this has resulted from industry being driven out of CA, primarily by progressive legislation enacted over the past 20 years. Arnold's just inheriting the clean up, and penned le sort du California when he went after the unions through the initiative process...since then, the unions have pulled all stops to destroy Schwarznegger, and collaterally have destroyed CA. CA is doomed...and 100% of the cause lies at the feet of the unions and our "progressive" lefty legislature.

They've also shut down funding of every highway project that's not "time critical" (new bay bridge...)...even though most of the highway contracts have a "delay" liquidated damages clause that goes BOTH WAYS so the state will be accruing damage/delay arrearages during this period, AND NOT GETTING ANY WORK DONE FOR IT :o ...yet more wretched fiscal mismanagement.
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Re: MN fuel debacle: "Utopia, meet Reality"

Post by BigApp »

D1B wrote:Too long Tman. Didn't read it.
Summation:
Vegetables freeze. We should be eating them and not using them as a fuel source.
Last edited by BigApp on Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MN fuel debacle: "Utopia, meet Reality"

Post by travelinman67 »

BigApp wrote:
D1B wrote:Too long Tman. Didn't read it.
Summation:

Soybean oil freezes. We shouldn't be using it as a fuel source.
Correction.

Ethanol freezes too, but bio-diesel has an accepted operational range of 14 to 260 deg F so it looks to be more appropriate for WC or Southern states (which probably explains why only WA and OR have mandated statewide usage...duh!).

Then there's MN... :roll:
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Re: MN fuel debacle: "Utopia, meet Reality"

Post by BigApp »

nice catch, is that better/more apropo?
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Re: MN fuel debacle: "Utopia, meet Reality"

Post by Grizalltheway »

BigApp wrote:
D1B wrote:Too long Tman. Didn't read it.
Summation:
Vegetables freeze. We should be eating them and not using them as a fuel source.
Sugar-cane ethanol has made Brazil damn-near energy independent. Alternative fuels really aren't as far fetched as some people would lead you to believe.
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Re: MN fuel debacle: "Utopia, meet Reality"

Post by Col Hogan »

WTAG wrote:
BigApp wrote: Summation:
Vegetables freeze. We should be eating them and not using them as a fuel source.
Sugar-cane ethanol has made Brazil damn-near energy independent. Alternative fuels really aren't as far fetched as some people would lead you to believe.
Sugar cane isn't a vegetable...they aren't taking something out of the human food chain...and they sure as hell aren't making something that will freeze in their environment...

In other words, the Brazilians thought it out...didn't have a farmers lobby trying to do science...
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Re: MN fuel debacle: "Utopia, meet Reality"

Post by HI54UNI »

Col Hogan wrote:
WTAG wrote: Sugar-cane ethanol has made Brazil damn-near energy independent. Alternative fuels really aren't as far fetched as some people would lead you to believe.
Sugar cane isn't a vegetable...they aren't taking something out of the human food chain...and they sure as hell aren't making something that will freeze in their environment...

In other words, the Brazilians thought it out...didn't have a farmers lobby trying to do science...
I wish I had a pic I could post of the chart that was shown at my conference this week. It showed the various forms of alternative fuel with the energy required to produce vs. the energy produced. Sugar cane for ethanol was really good. Corn for ethanol and soybean oil for biodiesel were both very poor. Guess which ones the US farm lobby has us using. :(
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Re: MN fuel debacle: "Utopia, meet Reality"

Post by Grizalltheway »

Col Hogan wrote:
WTAG wrote: Sugar-cane ethanol has made Brazil damn-near energy independent. Alternative fuels really aren't as far fetched as some people would lead you to believe.
Sugar cane isn't a vegetable...they aren't taking something out of the human food chain...and they sure as hell aren't making something that will freeze in their environment...

In other words, the Brazilians thought it out...didn't have a farmers lobby trying to do science...
Don't get me wrong, I think corn ethanol is a terrible idea, and obviously this thing in Minnesota is a pretty big snafu, but it seems to me that some people just don't think alternative fuels are practical or worthwhile, and would rather just ignore our oil problem until it actually becomes serious. Not implying that you or T-man feel that way, but I think that the problems with corn ethanol have soured some people on the whole concept.
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Re: MN fuel debacle: "Utopia, meet Reality"

Post by travelinman67 »

WTAG wrote:
Col Hogan wrote: Sugar cane isn't a vegetable...they aren't taking something out of the human food chain...and they sure as hell aren't making something that will freeze in their environment...

In other words, the Brazilians thought it out...didn't have a farmers lobby trying to do science...
Don't get me wrong, I think corn ethanol is a terrible idea, and obviously this thing in Minnesota is a pretty big snafu, but it seems to me that some people just don't think alternative fuels are practical or worthwhile, and would rather just ignore our oil problem until it actually becomes serious. Not implying that you or T-man feel that way, but I think that the problems with corn ethanol have soured some people on the whole concept.
The key is storage.

Any form of energy requires storage, and the whole energy industry is driven by current market. So factoring reserves/storage are principally viewed as price controllers, not strategic assets. The failing in the U.S. is that the industry is driven by investors/speculators, and not the businesses. The investors can't see beyond the next few months, and don't give a crap about long term price stability, which is why we are where we are today. The U.S. is woefully short of storage capacity, for obvious reasons...excessive capacity eventually drives all the prices down. The one big plus in "bio fuels' " favor is the materials used to produce bio fuels can be inexpensively inertly stored, rather than attempting to store the more volatile finished crude oil or finished hydrocarbon products, which is crucial for what I'm about to say...

First, ethanol refineries, just as with any refinery, needs to operating "continuously" to remain cost effective...you can't start and stop a refinery by just "flipping a switch" on at 8a, and off at 5p. Hence regardless of market price, the product must be continuously produced. Since bio-based products require more energy to commercially produce than they create, from an environmental standpoint, bio fuels are a failure so long as coal is fueling the primary source of electrical generation. While bio fuels can assist in resolving air quality issues in metropolitan areas, remember, in the overall picture, they create more pollution than they prevent.
From an energy independence perspective, many think tanks have evaluated the large scale replacement of traditional hydrocarbon fuels with bio fuels, if for no other reason than securing said energy independence, and every report I've ever read concluded that if every acre of farmland were dedicated to bio fuel crop production, it would still only generate half of our nation's required fuel consumption. But before you jump on this, I do acknowledge that there are numerous improvements being implemented to refining/manufacturing of bio fuels, and even plant hybridization is developing crops with the prospect of tipping the energy consumed/produced ratio in favor of bio fuels. So, the next issue is refining/storage/distribution.

While many of the existing distribution systems in place can be reasonably adapted to transport/distribute bio fuels, but will construction of new refineries be facilitated by government and local communities. From experience, I can attest that NO new manufacturing/processing facilities can be build without leaping through a myriad of regulatory processes and paying enormous fees for the "opportunity" to build their facilities in CA (think grocer's marketing of shelf space to suppliers). Additionally, start heading into traditionally "petroleum" industry regions of the west (OK heading west) and south (hint...TX)...and the prospects of developing/distributing bio fuels becomes immensely less likely.

Anyway, I'm not trying to dismiss or put the damper on bio fuels, however, it's role in the energy picture appears limited due to a number of reasons (mostly political, but some practical, as with what happened in MN), and as such, it should only be factored in as a small component of any long term U.S. energy policy.
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Re: MN fuel debacle: "Utopia, meet Reality"

Post by Col Hogan »

For me, the key point that T-Man made in the previous post is this...
bio-based products require more energy to commercially produce than they create
Now, there are bio-fuels (Brazilian Sugar-cane ethonol, for example...saw grass for another) that produce more energy than is used in producing them...that's bio-fuel we can all support...

So far, the bio-fuel movement is being pushed by special interest groups in it for themselves (farmers who grow corn and/or soybeans, for example) and not truly interested in getting this country off of oil...since producing their form of bio-fuel uses more fossil fuel energy to manufacture a product that does nothing but increase food costs and their profits...

I totally support bio-fuels that will get us off of oil...not waste energy in its production
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Re: MN fuel debacle: "Utopia, meet Reality"

Post by Grizalltheway »

Although it's still a VERY long way off (I'll be lucky to see it in my lifetime), I think controlled nuclear fusion is our best option as a replacement for fossil fuels. It'll be difficult to implement it on a worldwide scale, but given how much we've advanced technologically in the past 20 years alone, I don't have any doubt that we can get there eventually.
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Re: MN fuel debacle: "Utopia, meet Reality"

Post by travelinman67 »

Col Hogan wrote:For me, the key point that T-Man made in the previous post is this...
bio-based products require more energy to commercially produce than they create
Now, there are bio-fuels (Brazilian Sugar-cane ethonol, for example...saw grass for another) that produce more energy than is used in producing them...that's bio-fuel we can all support...

So far, the bio-fuel movement is being pushed by special interest groups in it for themselves (farmers who grow corn and/or soybeans, for example) and not truly interested in getting this country off of oil...since producing their form of bio-fuel uses more fossil fuel energy to manufacture a product that does nothing but increase food costs and their profits...

I totally support bio-fuels that will get us off of oil...not waste energy in its production
Yeah, I thought about that after I posted. I should have qualified that statement as "current" production methods.
In fact, new methods have improved efficiency, and different plant materials (3rd gen, and future hybrids) allow for positive energy output.
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Re: MN fuel debacle: "Utopia, meet Reality"

Post by AZGrizFan »

D1B wrote:Too long Tman. Didn't read it.

Here's the synopsis: Democrats suck.
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Re: MN fuel debacle: "Utopia, meet Reality"

Post by Col Hogan »

AZGrizFan wrote:
D1B wrote:Too long Tman. Didn't read it.

Here's the synopsis: Democrats suck.
Clear, concise, cogent... :lol:
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Re: MN fuel debacle: "Utopia, meet Reality"

Post by travelinman67 »

when we left off last Friday, the Interior dept had released their long term lease proposals, and oil shale leases had begun taking place after years of on again, off again, moratoriums...
travelinman67 wrote:...yet...as Bush heads out the door, the interior department finally releases their long awaited proposal for drilling realignment and expansion... http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/uswo ... ovider=rss ...just in time for incoming Sec. of Interior Salazar to announce, he intends on reinstating some of the drilling bans... http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/a ... rcID=42016 ...or delaying lease development pending long term studies on water usage for oil-shale extraction...http://www.postindependent.com/article/ ... o%20expire
Ken Salazar, who had slipped the oil shale ban into a spending bill passed last year, said on Wednesday that he might propose a requirement that before any leases may be issued there needs to be “quantification” of the water that is going to be used for oil shale development.

“That ought to be made a precondition of any Department of Interior action with respect to the issuance of those leases,” Salazar said. “I have lots of ideas with the aim in mind that I will protect Western Colorado against the potential ravages from commercial oil shale development.”

...Colo. Gov. Bill Ritter reacted strongly to what he called the White House’s “latest efforts to prematurely move forward with commercial oil-shale development in Colorado.”

In a letter to President Bush and U.S. Interior Department Secretary Dirk Kempthorne, Ritter wrote for them to “work with us, not against us, and together we can meet this nation’s energy needs and craft a responsible energy future for America.”
Yay!!!!! Eight more years of liberal obstructionist politics!!!!!

While America collapses. :(
Update 01/18/09:
========================================================

And the first bomb comes at the hands of the environmentalists, again...
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... 7682.story
Court halts Utah oil and gas leases
Environmental groups win a temporary restraining order, potentially leaving the fate of the 110,000 acres to the Obama administration.

...this will work out great...all the baby boomers spend their parents estates funding envirowhacko harrassment litigation, while the poor and middle class are mercilessly destroyed...
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_11455096
Protesters label Redford an enemy of the poor
Oil and gas drilling » Clergymen link famed moviemaker's stance to racism.

By Patty Henetz
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Posted: 01/15/2009 11:57:02 AM MST

So say some East Coast ministers and conservative activists, who took to the streets in front of a downtown Salt Lake City theater on the eve of Robert Redford's Sundance Film Festival to accuse the actor of holding down low-income Americans with his opposition to oil and gas drilling near national parks in Utah.

The protesters, led by the Congress of Racial Equality's national spokesman Niger Innis, suggested Redford should "relinquish his wealth" and live like a poor person. They complained that the filmmaker's anti-drilling stance could lead to higher energy prices for inner-city residents, forcing them to accept a lower standard of living.

The clergymen prayed for Redford "to see the light" and linked his environmental activism with racism.

"The high energy prices we're going to see this winter are essentially discriminatory," said Bishop Harry Jackson Jr. of the Hope Christian Church in Beltsville, Md., chairman of the High-Impact Leadership Coalition, a petroleum industry advocate.

A month ago, Redford, a trustee of the National Resources Defense Council, voiced support for a federal lawsuit aimed at blocking the Bush administration's "morally criminal" attempt to auction 103,000 acres of scenic redrock desert for oil and gas drilling near Arches and Canyonlands national parks and Dinosaur National Monument.

Using federal studies and statistics, The Wilderness Society calculated the natural gas recoverable from the 77 contested parcels would be the equivalent of two days of national consumption.

Bishop Bobby Allen, of Ogden's Griffin Memorial Church of God in Christ, said even a tiny amount of Utah gas represents a lifeline to poor inner-city residents. "One life worth saving is worth the effort," he said.

On Wednesday, Innis asserted that a billion cubic feet of Utah natural gas flows to the East every day. That's possible, given that Utah, Wyoming and Colorado together daily ship 4.3 billion cubic feet eastward, according to Mark Doelger of the Wyoming Pipeline Authority.

According to the Utah Division of Oil, Gas and Mining, the entire amount of gas drilled in Utah between 1891 and 2000 has been 7.65 trillion cubic feet. Between 2000 and September 2007, drilling in Utah yielded 2.3 trillion cubic feet -- all told, about six month's worth at today's consumption level.
...operative word, "NEAR" the park and "NEAR" the National Monument. This was just another "fabricate a reason" to stop progress, envirowhacko, "seek and destroy" lawsuit.
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Re: MN fuel debacle: "Utopia, meet Reality"

Post by travelinman67 »

And, as promised...the drilling bans...

...blocks all pending leases...

http://in.reuters.com/article/oilRpt/id ... 6020090121

White House may put hold on offshore drilling plan

Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:46am IST
WASHINGTON, Jan 21 (Reuters) - U.S. President Barack Obama may order a hold on a proposal issued in the final days of the Bush administration to expand offshore drilling in previously banned areas, an Interior Department official told Reuters on Wednesday...

Separately, the Interior official said the department's plan to develop oil shale fields in the western United States may also be stopped by Obama's order.
Don't say I didn't say...SMFH
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Re: MN fuel debacle: "Utopia, meet Reality"

Post by dbackjon »

Duh, Obama is reviewing ALL last minute orders, as he was elected to do.
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Re: MN fuel debacle: "Utopia, meet Reality"

Post by grizzaholic »

dbackjon wrote:Duh, Obama is reviewing ALL last minute orders, as he was elected to do.
EDIT: Very rash thinking and should not have posted this so it gets an EDIT.
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