Angle:No Abortions For Rape/Incest Victims...God Has A Plan

[Chizzang]

I think I'm gonna be sick...pro-choicers trying to gain some moral high ground by bringing gun rights and the Iraq war into this when those are two entirely separate issues.

As far as I'm concerned, my mother had a high-risk pregnancy that should've killed her and me. Even my dad wanted me aborted, but she said no. To the shock of everyone, both she and I are alive and well today. I'm sorry, but you're never going to convince me that abortion is an acceptable option, ever. My question is, what right would anyone have to stop me from developing into a life once I had started? If she had had an abortion, I wouldn't be here and that is a life snuffed out.

I would never argue that point...
I agree with your point... and you also prove my point (thank you)

[andy7171]

Loss of all innocent life is tragic.

We cannot stop our enemy from hiding behind women and children. As a result they are killed in the cross fire. The blame for their deaths fall on those doing the hiding just as much as those who did the shooting/bombing. Some would say more so.
We can put an end to the needless deaths to abortion.
Are you saying, if we can't save both, let's save neither?

That's better... thank you Andy

I'm suggesting that "we" as Humans first and Americans second need to recognize ALL ACTS that extinguish innocent life as equally disgusting and unacceptable. We indiscriminately bomb according to Red Cross accounts and hundreds and hundreds of other eye witnesses - but it's casually regarded as collateral damage and a small price to pay.

Where's the pro-life outrage..?

Oh.. wait... (right) That particular demographic is virtually 95% pro-Iraq war - a war that had at a minimum of 50,000 civilian casualties and thousands and thousands of children killed - A war we still can't explain...

Until the pro-life movement shows me that it is genuinely Pro-Life it's easily dismissed as emotional non-sense and exhibits a HUGE disconnect about how "some lives matter" and some lives don't matter.

I could go on
There are several other associated disconnects with the pro-Life movement that are equally as retarded




So yes - I agree it's certainly a legitimate perspective that abortion is murder (Isn't that collateral damage too..?)

I know an awful lot of catholic democrats who are pro-life and anti iraq war. So I question your 95% number.

If abortion deaths are collateral damage, who's at war?

[tampa_griz]

I'm not legislatively pro-life. But I have more respect for those that want it criminalized even in the case of rape or incest than those pro-lifers who excuse it in the case of rape or incest. The former wants to make abortion illegal on the basis of morality with regards to pre-marital sex. I can't listen to those people nor respect their opinion. However, if someone believes abortion is wrong because (at least from their perspective) you're killing an innocent person, then the circumstances of that life's creation shouldn't matter. It (again, from their perspective) is still an innocent life.

[Col Hogan]

I'm not legislatively pro-life. But I have more respect for those that want it criminalized even in the case of rape or incest than those pro-lifers who excuse it in the case of rape or incest. The former wants to make abortion illegal on the basis of morality with regards to pre-marital sex. I can't listen to those people nor respect their opinion. However, if someone believes abortion is wrong because (at least from their perspective) you're killing an innocent person, then the circumstances of that life's creation shouldn't matter. It (again, from their perspective) is still an innocent life.

Not a challenge...I may just be dense today...

But could you try that again...I'm missing your point...

[Chizzang]

That's better... thank you Andy

I'm suggesting that "we" as Humans first and Americans second need to recognize ALL ACTS that extinguish innocent life as equally disgusting and unacceptable. We indiscriminately bomb according to Red Cross accounts and hundreds and hundreds of other eye witnesses - but it's casually regarded as collateral damage and a small price to pay.

Where's the pro-life outrage..?

Oh.. wait... (right) That particular demographic is virtually 95% pro-Iraq war - a war that had at a minimum of 50,000 civilian casualties and thousands and thousands of children killed - A war we still can't explain...

Until the pro-life movement shows me that it is genuinely Pro-Life it's easily dismissed as emotional non-sense and exhibits a HUGE disconnect about how "some lives matter" and some lives don't matter.

I could go on
There are several other associated disconnects with the pro-Life movement that are equally as retarded




So yes - I agree it's certainly a legitimate perspective that abortion is murder (Isn't that collateral damage too..?)

I know an awful lot of catholic democrats who are pro-life and anti iraq war. So I question your 95% number.

If abortion deaths are collateral damage, who's at war?

I'm told it's a war for personal freedom... vs. Government intervention

[tampa_griz]

I'm not legislatively pro-life. But I have more respect for those that want it criminalized even in the case of rape or incest than those pro-lifers who excuse it in the case of rape or incest. The former wants to make abortion illegal on the basis of morality with regards to pre-marital sex. I can't listen to those people nor respect their opinion. However, if someone believes abortion is wrong because (at least from their perspective) you're killing an innocent person, then the circumstances of that life's creation shouldn't matter. It (again, from their perspective) is still an innocent life.

Not a challenge...I may just be dense today...

But could you try that again...I'm missing your point...

If a person believes that abortion should be criminalized except in the case of rape or incest they're basically saying, "You've made your bed, now lie in it". They're making a judgement based on behavior (pre-marital sex...probably without protection).....they're not talking about innocent life. That life (as they see it) is innocent regardless of consent from the mother.

On the other hand, a person that believes it's wrong even in the case of rape or incest comes is interested in protecting an innocent life. They aren't making a judgement based on irresponsible/immoral behavior.

The only thing that could make abortion "wrong" is the that it involves the intentional killing of an innocent human life. That's it. There's no other reason it could be wrong. I have the same disagreement with those that say it's ok to have one abortion, but not many. That makes zero sense to me. If it's wrong many times then it's wrong because you've intentionally killed an innocent life many times. If you've only done it once, then you've intentionally killed an innocent life once. I can't respect that opinion.

Does that make sense? I guess I'm saying it's not just what a person things.....it's why they think it. If a person told me that (forget the abortion angle for a moment) murder is wrong I would agree. However, I'd be nervous if that person said murder is wrong because "God says so" I'm going to get nervous because I'm not sure what God is going to tell that person tomorrow.

[andy7171]

good vs evil, but doesn't everything boil down to that?

[Col Hogan]

Not a challenge...I may just be dense today...

But could you try that again...I'm missing your point...

If a person believes that abortion should be criminalized except in the case of rape or incest they're basically saying, "You've made your bed, now lie in it". They're making a judgement based on behavior (pre-marital sex...probably without protection).....they're not talking about innocent life. That life (as they see it) is innocent regardless of consent from the mother.

On the other hand, a person that believes it's wrong even in the case of rape or incest comes is interested in protecting an innocent life. They aren't making a judgement based on irresponsible/immoral behavior.

The only thing that could make abortion "wrong" is the that it involves the intentional killing of an innocent human life. That's it. There's no other reason it could be wrong. I have the same disagreement with those that say it's ok to have one abortion, but not many. That makes zero sense to me. If it's wrong many times then it's wrong because you've intentionally killed an innocent life many times. If you've only done it once, then you've intentionally killed an innocent life once. I can't respect that opinion.

Does that make sense?

Got it...thanks...

And, I am opposed to abortion because I believe it takes an innocent life...just as I'm opposed to the death penalty because it could take an innocent life...

And cleets...

[mainejeff]

Also......this from the crowd that wants every man, woman and child in the United States to have a weapon in their hands 24/7 that can snuff out life in an instant. Yup.....those "pro-lifers" are something else.

You have some serious issues jeff. You can't seem to keep your warped view of politics out of discussions that have nothing to do with politics or religion. My view on abortion is 100% from logic and basic human rights. I don't own any weapons. Imagine that.

YOU are the one that has issues.

[mainejeff]

I have a big problem with this thinking. Close to "All my friends are doing it" arguement or two wrongs... The arguement over whether war is ethical is really a separate arguement, isn't it?

I don't believe it's separate at all...
and all my friends are doing it comment shows me you either aren't reading my posts or you don't understand - like all Pro-lifers the idea I'm discussing is completely foreign

Here try this:
If you were as emotionally invested in all indiscriminate acts of murder as you are about abortion I would say you had a valid point - but - you're not.

I don't see the difference - we either care about innocent life - or we do not.

How are we doing so far... do you understand that initial point..?

Once you are born.......you are no longer "innocent". THAT is how Right Wingnuts think.

[YoUDeeMan]

Loss of all innocent life is tragic.

We cannot stop our enemy from hiding behind women and children. As a result they are killed in the cross fire. The blame for their deaths fall on those doing the hiding just as much as those who did the shooting/bombing. Some would say more so.
We can put an end to the needless deaths to abortion.
Are you saying, if we can't save both, let's save neither?

Not to get sidetracked, but there are very few "innocents" in war...maybe 3 year old children, but that is about it. There might be some folks who prefer to not participate and who might wish the whole thing would go away, but that doesn't make them innocent. If I watch someone raping/murdering a woman and I do nothing, than I have decided that someone else's life (litterally of figuratively) is disposable. Screw me then if one of my family members is raped/murdered. The war in Iraq is no different than the wars in American cities. In each case, you have "bad guys" on each side doing bad things and regular people deciding to look the other way in the hopes that they will be overlooked. But staying silent (don't snitch) leads to other people getting hurt.

You want a clean street, then you have to fight for it or accept the consequences. As Cleets says, we are fighting/killing machines. Always have been...always will be.

The Day the Earth Stood Still (original version) is a great story.

[mainejeff]

Loss of all innocent life is tragic.

We cannot stop our enemy from hiding behind women and children. As a result they are killed in the cross fire. The blame for their deaths fall on those doing the hiding just as much as those who did the shooting/bombing. Some would say more so.
We can put an end to the needless deaths to abortion.
Are you saying, if we can't save both, let's save neither?

Not to get sidetracked, but there are very few "innocents" in war...maybe 3 year old children, but that is about it. There might be some folks who prefer to not participate and who might wish the whole thing would go away, but that doesn't make them innocent. If I watch someone raping/murdering a woman and I do nothing, than I have decided that someone else's life (litterally of figuratively) is disposable. Screw me then if one of my family members is raped/murdered. The war in Iraq is no different than the wars in American cities. In each case, you have "bad guys" on each side doing bad things and regular people deciding to look the other way in the hopes that they will be overlooked. But staying silent (don't snitch) leads to other people getting hurt.

You want a clean street, then you have to fight for it or accept the consequences. As Cleets says, we are fighting/killing machines. Always have been...always will be.

The Day the Earth Stood Still (original version) is a great story.

The Religious Right is much closer to perfect than the rest of us are.

[89Hen]

Here try this:
If you were as emotionally invested in all indiscriminate acts of murder as you are about abortion I would say you had a valid point - but - you're not.

I don't see the difference - we either care about innocent life - or we do not.

How are we doing so far... do you understand that initial point..?

Understand, yes. Agree, no. Especially with the notion that abortion is an "indiscriminate act of murder".

[89Hen]

Where's the pro-life outrage..?

Oh.. wait... (right) That particular demographic is virtually 95% pro-Iraq war

Wow. Even though I often disagree with you, you're usually on point. This stat is silly. In my church, where 95% of people are probably pro-life, it's a pretty even split between Dems and Reps and those that oppose and support the war.

[89Hen]

I know an awful lot of catholic democrats who are pro-life and anti iraq war. So I question your 95% number.

Andy beat me to it.

[89Hen]

YOU are the one that has issues.

Followed promptly by...

Once you are born.......you are no longer "innocent". THAT is how Right Wingnuts think.

And

The Religious Right is much closer to perfect than the rest of us are.

I got news for you jeff. Nobody here is a member of the "Religious Right" and YOU'RE the only one bringing religion and politics into this.

[AZGrizFan]

YOU are the one that has issues.

Followed promptly by...

Once you are born.......you are no longer "innocent". THAT is how Right Wingnuts think.

And

The Religious Right is much closer to perfect than the rest of us are.

I got news for you jeff. Nobody here is a member of the "Religious Right" and YOU'RE the only one bringing religion and politics into this.

And all mj does is throw gasoline on the fire....his posts lack any form of substance, he adds virtually NOTHING to the debate, only here to put down any and all who disagree with him.

[Col Hogan]

Followed promptly by...



And



I got news for you jeff. Nobody here is a member of the "Religious Right" and YOU'RE the only one bringing religion and politics into this.

And all mj does is throw gasoline on the fire....his posts lack any form of substance, he adds virtually NOTHING to the debate, only here to put down any and all who disagree with him.

If you drank that much coffee...you'd add nothing to the debate too...

[mainejeff]

I got news for you jeff. Nobody here is a member of the "Religious Right" and YOU'RE the only one bringing religion and politics into this.

Riiiiight.

[mainejeff]

And all mj does is throw gasoline on the fire....his posts lack any form of substance, he adds virtually NOTHING to the debate, only here to put down any and all who disagree with him.

If you drank that much coffee...you'd add nothing to the debate too...

Or had your head up the Republican Party's butt.........

[Chizzang]

You gotta admit that Abortion debates are the best...
It's the most passionate / illogical / one sided / disconnected / bipolar situation I can think of





I always learn something when I wade into one of these sh!t storms...
Thank you gentlemen for a fascinating ride as usual

[89Hen]

You gotta admit that Abortion debates are the best...
It's the most passionate / illogical / one sided / disconnected / bipolar situation I can think of

From the pro-choice side.

[89Hen]

I got news for you jeff. Nobody here is a member of the "Religious Right" and YOU'RE the only one bringing religion and politics into this.

Riiiiight.

Right on cue.

Or had your head up the Republican Party's butt.........

[Appaholic]

Where's the pro-life outrage..?

Oh.. wait... (right) That particular demographic is virtually 95% pro-Iraq war

Wow. Even though I often disagree with you, you're usually on point. This stat is silly. In my church, where 95% of people are probably pro-life, it's a pretty even split between Dems and Reps and those that oppose and support the war.

I believe that now, but I wonder what that split was circa 2002-2003?

[Appaholic]

Of course it counts. The difference is that in war we all recognize that lives are being taken. In the abortion debate, we have one side denying the reality; calling it "a potential life" and such. It's not a "potential" life. It's a life.

If you want to argue that there is justification for taking an innocent life through abortion then we can have an honest argument. But starting from the premise that no life is being taken...that it's just a "potential" life...is nonsense. It's an effort to live in denial about what abortion is.

Again: When a woman has an abortion she has a living animal killed. It's not a "potential" living animal. It already exists. And that animal is Homo sapiens. Those are objective, indisputable truths. Well except maybe I could make it plural if she's got more than one individual (twins, triplets, etc.). That "potential life" stuff is absolute crap.

John,
That's a completely different argument than the one I'm making... Sure it's a life - I got no problem with that perspective - Sure it's being taken

My question is:
Why does it matter so much MORE than all the lives taken everyday in other ways..?
If the Anti-Abortion gang worked 1/2 as hard at logic in the battle over life and death the world might look a lot different than it does today...

Again:
We're very selective about "what lives matter" and what lives do not matter

Until somebody can explain very clearly to me why abortions are so much worse that all the killing we endorse globally all over the world I really can't get behind this very short sighted closed minded single ended lark called Pro-Life

It ought to be called "Pro-some-life"

Agree. I don't dispute it's "life" at conception either, but I'm honest enough to acknowledge that it's value is less to me than other lifeforms ie; I'm no more disturbed by the extinguishing of that lifeform than other people are of dogs being euthanized at the shelter. Because, even though it's life, it's no more a person than any other lifeform flying around in my backyard on a summer night. Therefore, there is no emotional attachment.

Thank you Chizzang for articualting my argument in a more mature & effective way than I have attempted...