Meanwhile, in Iceland...

[dbackjon]

Trying to participate in something that wasn't New Jersey Pizza

Hows that..?
Smug enough for you

Try harder. You're slipping. Either that, or we're just getting used to you...

Or you are getting smugger..

[CID1990]

I'd rather read 60 pages of smug prickishness than listen to one minute of Celine Dionne...who is considered universally great....

It's not really that complicated klam-bake
simply add "over time" to your dullard response and hopefully a light will click on

see this is why being on the other side of the world sucks kinda

because I was going to point out the same (obvious) thing but its already been hashed out

But I was also going to call klam "granpa"


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[AZGrizFan]

Try harder. You're slipping. Either that, or we're just getting used to you...

Or you are getting smugger..

Not possible.

[OL FU]

So what's going on in Iceland?

[Chizzang]

I'll be there in September and then once more in December...

[CID1990]

So what's going on in Iceland?

Soul music, according to JSO

Really really good soul music

(sung in Icelandic.... which is like playing Fur Elise on a concertina)


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[CAA Flagship]

You guys ever looked at Dali paintings on shrooms? Fuckin awesome.

Who puts Dali paintings on top of shrooms? Sounds silly to me.

[dbackjon]

So what's going on in Iceland?

Ice

[JohnStOnge]

You probably know less about what is "better" or "worse" about singers than you think you do.

I just say that because I come from a family of singers that did things like the "all State choir" thing. You may think that's nothing. But it's intense. It's blind "sing" testing with specific criteria, etc. I've often thought that many of the most popular and successful singers in the world couldn't do very well.

Now, I'm not one of "them" directly. But I was into the competitions and selections.

Anyway that doesn't really matter either. When it comes to art it is all about taste. Some people undoubtably like Ninety Nine Luft Balloons better than they like Led Zeppelin The Ocean.

so what youre saying, basically, is that you and your wife stayed in a holiday inn express last night


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Me, maybe. Not exactly but maybe. But my wife was an All State Choir girl in High School then a Vocal Performance major in college. My daughter was also an All State Choir girl for four years and toured with Sound of America in Europe. We thought she would go to college and be a music major of some kind but she decided she didn't want to do that. Nevertheless, she understands voice and understands how singing is objectively evaluated because she had to have hers objectively evaluated in "blind" listen testing by voice judges for four years.

Me, I just observed the process when my daughter was doing it.

[JohnStOnge]

I'll give you a hint - the key is in the human face and global concepts of beauty
Ponder that and see if you're curious

The human face thing is biology (for one example of a discussion of that, see https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3130383/).

But even there it's not discretely objective. You will not find one face that everyone thinks is the most attractive face in the world. Yes if you show 100 heterosexual men Rosie O'Donnell and Scarlett Johansson there's a pretty get chance that all 100 will say Johansson looks better. But if you line up five beautiful women and ask 100 heterosexual men who each thinks is the most beautiful you are almost certainly going to get differences of opinion. Personal preferences are involved. Taste if involved.

If somebody thinks one song sounds better than another it sounds better to them. If someone else thinks the other song sounds better it sounds better to them. You can't make either think otherwise by launching into a discussion of why the one they don't like as much is objectively better so they should think it sounds better to them.

It's just not the same thing as an objectively measurable physical thing. Like I said if one guy runs a 9.85 100 meter dash and another guy finishes a step behind at something like 9.91 the first guy ran a faster 100 meters. Or something like weight. We can stand two women next to each other and males might disagree as to which is more attractive. But if we put them on an accurate scale and it reads 118 pounds for one while it reads 121 pounds for the other there's no debate or difference of opinion about which weighs more.

I can't even believe you're trying to debate this.

[kalm]

You guys ever looked at Dali paintings on shrooms? Fuckin awesome.

I may have actually done this. I can't remember.

89hen and Flaggy need to do this....

[Chizzang]

I can't even believe you're trying to debate this.

Of course you can't John...



As I said,
Anyone who makes things knows intuitively that's it's true...

What do you make John..?
What is your expertise ?
What do you construct from scratch..?

people that don't "make things" love the idea that art is all subjective
Because that allows them to be a part of the conversation - a conversation they know nothing about

Creators and Designers and Artists all will tell you
There is absolutely a Universal Great
and some guy that has never endeavored to design build and create something
Well frankly that guys opinion doesn't really matter

It's just like Science john
People who know nothing about it
really don't deserve an opinion about Science

Suffice to say we'll absolutely disagree on this one
And it's no surprise - Here - Have a participation Trophy John
and Yes, Your opinion on brunelleschi's architectural design is just as important as an Architects

[CID1990]

so what youre saying, basically, is that you and your wife stayed in a holiday inn express last night


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Me, maybe. Not exactly but maybe. But my wife was an All State Choir girl in High School then a Vocal Performance major in college. My daughter was also an All State Choir girl for four years and toured with Sound of America in Europe. We thought she would go to college and be a music major of some kind but she decided she didn't want to do that. Nevertheless, she understands voice and understands how singing is objectively evaluated because she had to have hers objectively evaluated in "blind" listen testing by voice judges for four years.

Me, I just observed the process when my daughter was doing it.

Yeah it's totally formulaic

Like Vaclav Nehlybel

You're like the substitute teacher in Dead Poets Society reverting to the textbook about how great poetry can be mathematically determined

Awesome at cocktail parties arent you


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[JohnStOnge]

Me, maybe. Not exactly but maybe. But my wife was an All State Choir girl in High School then a Vocal Performance major in college. My daughter was also an All State Choir girl for four years and toured with Sound of America in Europe. We thought she would go to college and be a music major of some kind but she decided she didn't want to do that. Nevertheless, she understands voice and understands how singing is objectively evaluated because she had to have hers objectively evaluated in "blind" listen testing by voice judges for four years.

Me, I just observed the process when my daughter was doing it.

Yeah it's totally formulaic

Like Vaclav Nehlybel

You're like the substitute teacher in Dead Poets Society reverting to the textbook about how great poetry can be mathematically determined

Awesome at cocktail parties arent you


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Actually I've been arguing that it's NOT totally formulatic. But, to the extent that an attempt to made to objectively judge such things as how good someone's voice is my wife and daughter do have experience with it.

But it's not just about how good someone's voice is anyway when it comes to what people like. I mean, they are probably going to have to be above some minimum. But I think we can all agree that the most popular singers are not necessarily the best singers.

[JohnStOnge]

I can't even believe you're trying to debate this.

Of course you can't John...



As I said,
Anyone who makes things knows intuitively that's it's true...

What do you make John..?
What is your expertise ?
What do you construct from scratch..?

people that don't "make things" love the idea that art is all subjective
Because that allows them to be a part of the conversation - a conversation they know nothing about

Creators and Designers and Artists all will tell you
There is absolutely a Universal Great
and some guy that has never endeavored to design build and create something
Well frankly that guys opinion doesn't really matter

It's just like Science john
People who know nothing about it
really don't deserve an opinion about Science

Suffice to say we'll absolutely disagree on this one
And it's no surprise - Here - Have a participation Trophy John
and Yes, Your opinion on brunelleschi's architectural design is just as important as an Architects

All that language without actually supporting your point. Just basically, "I know what I'm talking about and you don't."

Again, though, Chiz: I don't have to know anything about making music to know what I like when I'm consuming music. And that's what I'm talking about. Someone either likes something or they don't. The fact that you're a person "creating" it doesn't matter. If one person "creates" on thing and another person creates "another" then the consumer likes what the second person created better it is what it is. You can make all the arguments in the world as to why they should like what the first person created better. But it's pointless.

Vincent Van Gogh sold one painting during his lifetime. Almost nobody thought his art was good at the time. Now he's considered a master. So, was it the case that his contemporaries didn't understand how great he was? Or was it the case that perspectives changed?

[JohnStOnge]

Oh...in response to the question of what do I make...the answer is mathematical models.

And I make discoveries. Not huge ones. But over my lifetime I can point to things that are known now that weren't known before I found them. I'm not one of those who seeks to publish things and all. Never have been like that. I just do my work and try to solve problems. But in my own life I have the satisfaction of knowing that there are things that are done in certain ways now because of things that I discovered and/or proposed. I'm talking about things like seasonal trends in pollution indicators, trends in certain disease cases, and a certain sampling approach that made things much more practical from a logistic standpoint.

Not like discovering antibiotics or anything. But at as I move into old age I'm pretty satisfied with respect to the extent of my contributions to the ways in which things are done and the extent to which people understand things related to what I do. I can look at certain things that made things better and say, "I'm the reason for that."

[JohnStOnge]

Here's an old but classic story hitting upon just how subjective art appraisal is:

http://hoaxes.org/archive/permalink/pie ... key_artist

Art critics, journalists, and students, glasses of wine in hand, silently contemplated Brassau's creations. Their praise was almost unanimous. Rolf Anderberg of the morning Posten later wrote that most of the works at the show were "ponderous," but not those of Brassau:

"Pierre Brassau paints with powerful strokes, but also with clear determination. His brush strokes twist with furious fastidiousness. Pierre is an artist who performs with the delicacy of a ballet dancer."

"Braussau was a chimpanzee. A journalist had decided to see what would happen if he had a chimp paint some pictures and include them.

[Chizzang]

You never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity John..

This has never really been about "what somebody likes" I mean who cares
we've already had people mention McDonalds
Which is some peoples favorite food

That's not really what this debate is about...

You can argue that Kraft synthetic cheese slices are better than Scottish aged cheddar
and that it's an entirely subjective opinion - indeed

What I'm talking about is taking that ridiculous opinion
as seriously as a Master Cheese Craftsman's opinion on the matter
When talking about cheese

And then recognizing that there is such a thing as GREAT in the world of Cheese (for example)

So yes, John in your world an Icelandic Cover band
is better than one of the Premier Soul bands of our generation

And nobody can take that away from you
But it is about like announcing McDonalds is better that Real Home Cooked Cajun food
Nobody will take you seriously and in fact you embarrass yourself

But yes, John you're allowed to believe that McDonalds is the greatest food of all times

[JohnStOnge]

That's not really what this debate is about...

This "debate" started when I said it's a matter of taste and I like the Icelandic chick's version better.

BTW, if someone likes Kraft Cheese Food better than some other cheese it is what it is. You can have some "Master Cheese Craftsman" say some real cheese is better or should be thought of as better.

But if someone puts each into their mouth and says they like the way the Kraft Cheese Food tastes better to them it is what it is. They can't be "wrong" about what they think tastes better to them.

[Chizzang]

That's not really what this debate is about...

This "debate" started when I said it's a matter of taste and I like the Icelandic chick's version better.

BTW, if someone likes Kraft Cheese Food better than some other cheese it is what it is. You can have some "Master Cheese Craftsman" say some real cheese is better or should be thought of as better.

But if someone puts each into their mouth and says they like the way the Kraft Cheese Food tastes better to them it is what it is. They can't be "wrong" about what they think tastes better to them.

We've covered this John
And nobody is arguing that point - in fact nobody even cares about that point
It's meaningless

But John
I do remember one interesting thing

You argued
that American citizens should have to pass a test to vote
can you explain why you feel that way for me again...

[CID1990]

Yeah it's totally formulaic

Like Vaclav Nehlybel

You're like the substitute teacher in Dead Poets Society reverting to the textbook about how great poetry can be mathematically determined

Awesome at cocktail parties arent you


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Actually I've been arguing that it's NOT totally formulatic. But, to the extent that an attempt to made to objectively judge such things as how good someone's voice is my wife and daughter do have experience with it.

But it's not just about how good someone's voice is anyway when it comes to what people like. I mean, they are probably going to have to be above some minimum. But I think we can all agree that the most popular singers are not necessarily the best singers.

Right-

and to make your point, you are putting forward your wife, who has a choir pedigree, as an authority on artistic greatness = formulaic


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[OL FU]

So what's going on in Iceland?

Ice

Cool! I mean Cold.

[CAA Flagship]

I wrote an extremely long paper on this in college... something like 60 pages

Premature use of the "enter" key.

[89Hen]

So what's going on in Iceland?

A lot. It's a universally great country. That's why Cleetzang loves it so much.

[kalm]

So what's going on in Iceland?

A lot. It's a universally great country. That's why Cleetzang loves it so much.

Have you ever created a country? Who do you think you are, Sveinn Björnsson?