Tonight I'm Embarrassed at our Government...

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Re: Tonight I'm Embarrassed at our Government...

Post by Baldy »

houndawg wrote:
Col Hogan wrote:
The Department of Energy was created in 1977 to reduce the dependence on foreign oil...It has ballooned to 16,000 employees with a budget of $24 billion a year and we import more oil than ever before...

The government has had 32 years to get it right and it is an abysmal failure...and you still feel the government can/will fix health care??? :ohno:
I don't know if they can or can't, Colonel, but obviously the industry can't fix itself.
Sure they can, but your heroes in the government won't let them.
The industry would LOVE to tap into the vast reserves we have which would greatly decrease our dependence on foreign oil.
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Re: Tonight I'm Embarrassed at our Government...

Post by houndawg »

Col Hogan wrote:
houndawg wrote:
I don't know if they can or can't, Colonel, but obviously the industry can't fix itself.
And I'd never say it could fix itself...

But I do know that legislation that is designed to help control costs...that looks at the insurance industry only without looking at Tort reform...is terribly faulty legislation...
I agree 100% Colonel and I believe that if we're going to make doctor's take a pay cut, that pay cut should be balanced dollar for dollar with lower malpractice premiums. Stick it to the insurance company parasites, not to the doctors. There is no reason that insurance execs should be handed more bonus money in one year than a doctor earns in ten years.
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Re: Tonight I'm Embarrassed at our Government...

Post by youngterrier »

where's Native when we need him?
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Re: Tonight I'm Embarrassed at our Government...

Post by houndawg »

Baldy wrote:
houndawg wrote:
I don't know if they can or can't, Colonel, but obviously the industry can't fix itself.
Sure they can, but your heroes in the government won't let them.
The industry would LOVE to tap into the vast reserves we have which would greatly decrease our dependence on foreign oil.
Get a grip, man.

1) I was talking about the insurance industry can't fix itself.

2) The oil industry has thousands of leases they could start drilling on tomorrow.

3) The oil industry doesn't see any need to increase supply and reduce demand, they like things just the way they are.

4) You need to start thinking beyond oil, Baldy; oil is an "old Europe" kinda thing. We need forward thinking not more of thew same. If that means nuclear for the transition, so be it.
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Re: Tonight I'm Embarrassed at our Government...

Post by Skjellyfetti »

Col Hogan wrote:
And I'd never say it could fix itself...

But I do know that legislation that is designed to help control costs...that looks at the insurance industry only without looking at Tort reform...is terribly faulty legislation...
Wow. A lot of y'all in strong opposition to this bill haven't done any sort of actual research on it, have you?

This is going to blow your mind... but, the bill does look at Tort reform:
Award five-year demonstration grants to
states to develop, implement, and evaluate
alternatives to current tort litigations.
Preference will be given to states that have
developed alternatives in consultation with
relevant stakeholders and that have proposals
that are likely to enhance patient safety by
reducing medical errors and adverse events
and are likely to improve access to liability
insurance.
under "Medical Malpractice" on page 28

http://www.kff.org/healthreform/upload/ ... _final.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:shock:
Last edited by Skjellyfetti on Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tonight I'm Embarrassed at our Government...

Post by houndawg »

Skjellyfetti wrote:
Col Hogan wrote:
And I'd never say it could fix itself...

But I do know that legislation that is designed to help control costs...that looks at the insurance industry only without looking at Tort reform...is terribly faulty legislation...
Wow. A lot of y'all in strong opposition to this bill haven't done any sort of actual research on it, have you?

This is going to blow your mind... but, the bill does look at Tort reform:
Award five-year demonstration grants to
states to develop, implement, and evaluate
alternatives to current tort litigations.
Preference will be given to states that have
developed alternatives in consultation with
relevant stakeholders and that have proposals
that are likely to enhance patient safety by
reducing medical errors and adverse events
and are likely to improve access to liability
insurance.
http://www.kff.org/healthreform/upload/ ... _final.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:shock:
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education's awful

Writin' checks and
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ought to be
unlawful.
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Re: Tonight I'm Embarrassed at our Government...

Post by bench »

youngterrier wrote:where's Native when we need him?
Oh be quiet you, budding Trotskyist
JMU DJ wrote:This all sounds great in theory, but I'm in the "wait and see" crowd. I like the idea and support it, but we'll see how it goes in action. If it works, great, in theory it has more pros than cons. If it doesn't work, scrap it. Other things that can happen include AZ's worst case scenario rants on this thread, and you could probably find an equal amount of people to wager on those too. Doctors salaries dropping, quality of health care dropping, taxes increase, national debt increase, etc. If Americans are angry, there will be a mass vote out this fall and maybe congress will do something to stop the health care bill. I assume throughout the history of the United States, congress has never passed a "No Takesy Backsy" amendment?
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Re: Tonight I'm Embarrassed at our Government...

Post by houndawg »

youngterrier wrote:where's Native when we need him?
Too many facts flying around, a guy like him could get hurt if he didn't keep his head down. :lol:
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Re: Tonight I'm Embarrassed at our Government...

Post by Ibanez »

dbackjon wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:
Jon, we've played that record before. This isn't about "being just like everybody else". We simply canNOT afford this bill. Period. The end.
And why can the other countries afford it?
Dude, we aren't other countries.
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Re: Tonight I'm Embarrassed at our Government...

Post by Baldy »

houndawg wrote:
Baldy wrote:
Sure they can, but your heroes in the government won't let them.
The industry would LOVE to tap into the vast reserves we have which would greatly decrease our dependence on foreign oil.
Get a grip, man.

1) I was talking about the insurance industry can't fix itself.

2) The oil industry has thousands of leases they could start drilling on tomorrow.

3) The oil industry doesn't see any need to increase supply and reduce demand, they like things just the way they are.

4) You need to start thinking beyond oil, Baldy; oil is an "old Europe" kinda thing. We need forward thinking not more of thew same. If that means nuclear for the transition, so be it.
1. The government can't even run itself, but you trust it to run healthcare? Honestly, how stupid are you?

2. The oil companies has thousands of leases. Too bad there isn't any oil where those leases are. :roll:

3. If the US oil companies could boost supply, they would. Left-Wing environmental wackos make sure that doesn't happen.

4. Since you brought it up....The epitome of "Old Europe" is universal healthcare. We need forward thinking, not more of the same. :rofl:
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Re: Tonight I'm Embarrassed at our Government...

Post by AZGrizFan »

Skjellyfetti wrote:
89Hen wrote: :lol: Fine jelly. You may input 95% in there or whatever number you like. I don't doubt that more people will be covered. That's why I asked if you think any TWO of these will come true. Way to sidestep the point.
Ok, then I'll take the bet if we can establish how we define success for each of the three points and when we determine success. As I've said earlier in the thread, I don't think you'll be able to until 2014 at the earliest, though.
Great. By that time Obama will be history...the latest one-term president in our rear view mirror.
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Re: Tonight I'm Embarrassed at our Government...

Post by AZGrizFan »

Skjellyfetti wrote:
Col Hogan wrote:
And I'd never say it could fix itself...

But I do know that legislation that is designed to help control costs...that looks at the insurance industry only without looking at Tort reform...is terribly faulty legislation...
Wow. A lot of y'all in strong opposition to this bill haven't done any sort of actual research on it, have you?

This is going to blow your mind... but, the bill does look at Tort reform:
Award five-year demonstration grants to
states to develop, implement, and evaluate
alternatives to current tort litigations.
Preference will be given to states that have
developed alternatives in consultation with
relevant stakeholders and that have proposals
that are likely to enhance patient safety by
reducing medical errors and adverse events
and are likely to improve access to liability
insurance.
under "Medical Malpractice" on page 28

http://www.kff.org/healthreform/upload/ ... _final.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:shock:
FIVE YEAR GRANTS. Translation: After we're all LONG gone from this congress.

These are a bunch of fucking LAWYERS, KY. You HONESTLY have even the slightest shred of belief that tort reform will EVER get through those halls?

If so, you truly are a lost cause.
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Re: Tonight I'm Embarrassed at our Government...

Post by Skjellyfetti »

AZGrizFan wrote:
FIVE YEAR GRANTS. Translation: After we're all LONG gone from this congress.

These are a bunch of **** LAWYERS, KY. You HONESTLY have even the slightest shred of belief that tort reform will EVER get through those halls?

If so, you truly are a lost cause.
This sounds like a reasonably bi-partisan idea to me. It gives states latitude to try things that they think will work, so you will have a wide variety of ideas working nationwide. Obviously, places that lean heavily to the right will try things that are more protective of business (device makers, pharma, etc...) while plaintiffs will likely be given more deference elsewhere. Hopefully in the end after a few years, we will arrive at systems that work and that promote patient safety, at the lowest cost.

But... it provokes angry tirades from Conks (those that actually acknowledge it's in the bill, haha)
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Re: Tonight I'm Embarrassed at our Government...

Post by Col Hogan »

Skjellyfetti wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:
FIVE YEAR GRANTS. Translation: After we're all LONG gone from this congress.

These are a bunch of **** LAWYERS, KY. You HONESTLY have even the slightest shred of belief that tort reform will EVER get through those halls?

If so, you truly are a lost cause.
This sounds like a reasonably bi-partisan idea to me. It gives states latitude to try things that they think will work, so you will have a wide variety of ideas working nationwide. Obviously, places that lean heavily to the right will try things that are more protective of business (device makers, pharma, etc...) while plaintiffs will likely be given more deference elsewhere. Hopefully in the end after a few years, we will arrive at systems that work and that promote patient safety, at the lowest cost.

But... it provokes angry tirades from Conks (those that actually acknowledge it's in the bill, haha)
If it's reasonable for Tort Reform...why isn't it reasonable for Medical Insurance reform...since there is (currently) no federal body that regulates insurance...but each and every state has an insurance commission to regulate insurance companies...
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Re: Tonight I'm Embarrassed at our Government...

Post by JMU DJ »

bench wrote:
JMU DJ wrote:This all sounds great in theory, but I'm in the "wait and see" crowd. I like the idea and support it, but we'll see how it goes in action. If it works, great, in theory it has more pros than cons. If it doesn't work, scrap it. Other things that can happen include AZ's worst case scenario rants on this thread, and you could probably find an equal amount of people to wager on those too. Doctors salaries dropping, quality of health care dropping, taxes increase, national debt increase, etc. If Americans are angry, there will be a mass vote out this fall and maybe congress will do something to stop the health care bill. I assume throughout the history of the United States, congress has never passed a "No Takesy Backsy" amendment?
:thumb:

Yeeeassh, after rereading that statement, I don't know why I'm getting a thumbs up (at least for the first three sentences). In theory I need to lay off the coffee, but I'm going to wait and see, because in theory coffee is good.
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Re: Tonight I'm Embarrassed at our Government...

Post by houndawg »

Col Hogan wrote:
Skjellyfetti wrote:
This sounds like a reasonably bi-partisan idea to me. It gives states latitude to try things that they think will work, so you will have a wide variety of ideas working nationwide. Obviously, places that lean heavily to the right will try things that are more protective of business (device makers, pharma, etc...) while plaintiffs will likely be given more deference elsewhere. Hopefully in the end after a few years, we will arrive at systems that work and that promote patient safety, at the lowest cost.

But... it provokes angry tirades from Conks (those that actually acknowledge it's in the bill, haha)
If it's reasonable for Tort Reform...why isn't it reasonable for Medical Insurance reform...since there is (currently) no federal body that regulates insurance...but each and every state has an insurance commission to regulate insurance companies...
...and look where that has brought us to.
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Re: Tonight I'm Embarrassed at our Government...

Post by Col Hogan »

houndawg wrote:
Col Hogan wrote:
If it's reasonable for Tort Reform...why isn't it reasonable for Medical Insurance reform...since there is (currently) no federal body that regulates insurance...but each and every state has an insurance commission to regulate insurance companies...
...and look where that has brought us to.
I'll try again...if it's so bad for insurance to be regulated by the individual states...why in the world would a tort reform "test" be run the same way... :coffee:
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Re: Tonight I'm Embarrassed at our Government...

Post by native »

JMU DJ wrote:
bench wrote:


:thumb:

Yeeeassh, after rereading that statement, I don't know why I'm getting a thumbs up (at least for the first three sentences). In theory I need to lay off the coffee, but I'm going to wait and see, because in theory coffee is good.
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Re: Tonight I'm Embarrassed at our Government...

Post by AZGrizFan »

Col Hogan wrote:
houndawg wrote:
...and look where that has brought us to.
I'll try again...if it's so bad for insurance to be regulated by the individual states...why in the world would a tort reform "test" be run the same way... :coffee:
Insanity: Trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. :coffee:
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Re: Tonight I'm Embarrassed at our Government...

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Rep. Collin Peterson, D-Minn....
“The clear consensus was that we needed to reduce the cost of health care — for individuals, families, employers and the government,” and to expand coverage and fix other problems “without destroying the parts of the system that are working,” he said.

“If the bills we voted on (Sunday) had measured up to these standards, I would have supported them, but they did not. In my judgment, while these bills deliver some good things, they miss the mark on the most important things and will not deliver as promised.”

Peterson said the legislation won’t control costs and doesn’t reform Medicare, and it will cover just 37 percent of the uninsured people in his district while covering an average of 68 percent of the uninsured across the country.

“This is very similar to the way the Medicare geographic disparities problem was created back in 1982,” he said. “The geographic payment disparity encourages cost-shifting and rewards low quality (and) high cost health care providers in other states while forcing Minnesota to do more with less.”

In addition, the legislation “will not control costs,” Peterson said, citing Congressional Budget Office estimates that premiums for individuals will increase by 10 percent to 13 percent.
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Re: Tonight I'm Embarrassed at our Government...

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Pres. Barack Obama, D IL
Tonight, after nearly 100 years of talk and frustration, after decades of trying, and a year of sustained effort and debate, the United States Congress finally declared that America’s workers and America's families and America's small businesses deserve the security of knowing that here, in this country, neither illness nor accident should endanger the dreams they’ve worked a lifetime to achieve.

Tonight, at a time when the pundits said it was no longer possible, we rose above the weight of our politics. We pushed back on the undue influence of special interests. We didn't give in to mistrust or to cynicism or to fear. Instead, we proved that we are still a people capable of doing big things and tackling our biggest challenges. We proved that this government -- a government of the people and by the people -- still works for the people.

I want to thank every member of Congress who stood up tonight with courage and conviction to make health care reform a reality. And I know this wasn’t an easy vote for a lot of people. But it was the right vote. I want to thank Speaker Nancy Pelosi for her extraordinary leadership, and Majority Leader Steny Hoyer and Majority Whip Jim Clyburn for their commitment to getting the job done. I want to thank my outstanding Vice President, Joe Biden, and my wonderful Secretary of Health and Human Services, Kathleen Sebelius, for their fantastic work on this issue. I want to thank the many staffers in Congress, and my own incredible staff in the White House, who have worked tirelessly over the past year with Americans of all walks of life to forge a reform package finally worthy of the people we were sent here to serve.

Today’s vote answers the dreams of so many who have fought for this reform. To every unsung American who took the time to sit down and write a letter or type out an e-mail hoping your voice would be heard -- it has been heard tonight. To the untold numbers who knocked on doors and made phone calls, who organized and mobilized out of a firm conviction that change in this country comes not from the top down, but from the bottom up -- let me reaffirm that conviction: This moment is possible because of you.

Most importantly, today’s vote answers the prayers of every American who has hoped deeply for something to be done about a health care system that works for insurance companies, but not for ordinary people. For most Americans, this debate has never been about abstractions, the fight between right and left, Republican and Democrat -- it’s always been about something far more personal. It’s about every American who knows the shock of opening an envelope to see that their premiums just shot up again when times are already tough enough. It’s about every parent who knows the desperation of trying to cover a child with a chronic illness only to be told “no” again and again and again. It’s about every small business owner forced to choose between insuring employees and staying open for business. They are why we committed ourselves to this cause.

Tonight’s vote is not a victory for any one party -- it's a victory for them. It's a victory for the American people. And it's a victory for common sense.

Now, it probably goes without saying that tonight’s vote will give rise to a frenzy of instant analysis. There will be tallies of Washington winners and losers, predictions about what it means for Democrats and Republicans, for my poll numbers, for my administration. But long after the debate fades away and the prognostication fades away and the dust settles, what will remain standing is not the government-run system some feared, or the status quo that serves the interests of the insurance industry, but a health care system that incorporates ideas from both parties -- a system that works better for the American people.

If you have health insurance, this reform just gave you more control by reining in the worst excesses and abuses of the insurance industry with some of the toughest consumer protections this country has ever known -- so that you are actually getting what you pay for.

If you don’t have insurance, this reform gives you a chance to be a part of a big purchasing pool that will give you choice and competition and cheaper prices for insurance. And it includes the largest health care tax cut for working families and small businesses in history -- so that if you lose your job and you change jobs, start that new business, you’ll finally be able to purchase quality, affordable care and the security and peace of mind that comes with it.

This reform is the right thing to do for our seniors. It makes Medicare stronger and more solvent, extending its life by almost a decade. And it’s the right thing to do for our future. It will reduce our deficit by more than $100 billion over the next decade, and more than $1 trillion in the decade after that.

So this isn’t radical reform. But it is major reform. This legislation will not fix everything that ails our health care system. But it moves us decisively in the right direction. This is what change looks like.

Now as momentous as this day is, it's not the end of this journey. On Tuesday, the Senate will take up revisions to this legislation that the House has embraced, and these are revisions that have strengthened this law and removed provisions that had no place in it. Some have predicted another siege of parliamentary maneuvering in order to delay adoption of these improvements. I hope that’s not the case. It’s time to bring this debate to a close and begin the hard work of implementing this reform properly on behalf of the American people. This year, and in years to come, we have a solemn responsibility to do it right.

Nor does this day represent the end of the work that faces our country. The work of revitalizing our economy goes on. The work of promoting private sector job creation goes on. The work of putting American families’ dreams back within reach goes on. And we march on, with renewed confidence, energized by this victory on their behalf.

In the end, what this day represents is another stone firmly laid in the foundation of the American Dream. Tonight, we answered the call of history as so many generations of Americans have before us. When faced with crisis, we did not shrink from our challenge -- we overcame it. We did not avoid our responsibility -- we embraced it. We did not fear our future -- we shaped it.

Thank you, God bless you, and may God bless the United States of America.
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Re: Tonight I'm Embarrassed at our Government...

Post by 89Hen »

If you believe that load, may God have mercy on your soul.
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Re: Tonight I'm Embarrassed at our Government...

Post by native »

89Hen wrote:If you believe that load, may God have mercy on your soul.
+1 :thumb:
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Re: Tonight I'm Embarrassed at our Government...

Post by AZGrizFan »

Skjellyfetti wrote:Pres. Barack Obama, D IL
Tonight, at a time when the pundits said it was no longer possible, we rose above the weight of our politics. We pushed back on the undue influence of special interests. We didn't give in to mistrust or to cynicism or to fear. Instead, we proved that we are still a people capable of doing big things and tackling our biggest challenges. We proved that this government -- a government of the people and by the people -- still works for the people.

I want to thank every member of Congress who stood up tonight with courage and conviction to make health care reform a reality.

Tonight’s vote is not a victory for any one party -- it's a victory for them. It's a victory for the American people. And it's a victory for common sense.

In the end, what this day represents is another stone firmly laid in the foundation of the American Dream. Tonight, we answered the call of history as so many generations of Americans have before us. When faced with crisis, we did not shrink from our challenge -- we overcame it. We did not avoid our responsibility -- we embraced it. We did not fear our future -- we shaped it.
What complete and utter partisan BULLSHIT. Not a victory for any one party? Rose above the weight of our politics? Really? Is that why not a SINGLE Republican voted for it? And 30 Democrats defected? Yeah...some "bi-partisan" package THAT was. And they haven't laid a stone IN the foundation of the American Dream, they've laid the gravestone FOR the American Dream. They SURELY gave in to special interests, that's why there's the Blue Cross Exclusion, the Louisiana Purchase clause, and many, many other completely ludicrous and immoral inclusions into an already abortion of a bill.

This bill is the biggest albatross EVER laid at the feet of our country. A country that already finds it impossible to meet the obligations it's made for itself. THIS will be the day that is looked at as the beginning of the end.
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Re: Tonight I'm Embarrassed at our Government...

Post by Skjellyfetti »

89Hen wrote:If you believe that load, may God have mercy on your soul.
Haha, I was just showing how easy it was to post comments made by a politician you agree with since FargoBison did the same.

Edit: oooo, and it also caused AZGrizfan to type with a lot of capital letters. So, mission accomplished. :lol:
Last edited by Skjellyfetti on Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"The unmasking thing was all created by Devin Nunes"
- Richard Burr, (R-NC)
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