So, the abortion issue is now back in the limelight...

[Skjellyfetti]

What should the penalty be for an illegal abortion?

Treated as murder? Or...?

[89Hen]

What should the penalty be for an illegal abortion?

Treated as murder? Or...?

Not to be the broken record, but you haven't answered the first part yet Jelly (I think this is your first post on this thread?). I honestly think it's important we establish everyone's position on whether the baby has rights.

[Skjellyfetti]

First, we're talking about fetuses - not babies.

Second, the fetus has rights. So does the mother. Fetuses don't have full rights. Personhood is established by the state in every other matter by the day you're born - not the day you're conceived.




Now, question for you - should abortion be treated as murder? Why or why not?

[∞∞∞]

Any women want to input thoughts into this thread?

Maybe some of your daughters?

[kalm]

What should the penalty be for an illegal abortion?

Treated as murder? Or...?

Not to be the broken record, but you haven't answered the first part yet Jelly (I think this is your first post on this thread?). I honestly think it's important we establish everyone's position on whether the baby has rights.

It’s more important to establish what is a baby.,.

[89Hen]

First, we're talking about fetuses - not babies.

Second, the fetus has rights. So does the mother. Fetuses don't have full rights. Personhood is established by the state in every other matter by the day you're born - not the day you're conceived.




Now, question for you - should abortion be treated as murder? Why or why not?

https://www.nrlc.org/federal/unbornvict ... aws092302/

Alabama: Legislation taking effect July 1, 2006 (HB 19) amended Section 13A-6-1 of the Code of Alabama to include “an unborn child in utero at any stage of development, regardless of viability” as a “person” and “human being” for purposes of the state laws dealing with murder, manslaughter, criminally negligent homicide, and assault.

Alaska: Alaska Statutes 11.41 (as amended by Senate Bill 20, enacted June 16, 2006) establishes the crimes of “murder of an unborn child,” “manslaughter of an unborn child,” “criminally negligent homicide of an unborn child,” and “assault of an unborn child.” Alaska Statutes 11.81.900(b) defines “unborn child” as “a member of species Homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb.”

Arizona: The “unborn child in the womb at any stage of its development” is fully covered by the state’s murder and manslaughter statutes. For purposes of establishing the level of punishment, a victim who is “an unborn child shall be treated like a minor who is under twelve years of age.” Senate Bill 1052, signed into law on April 25, 2005, amending the following sections of the Arizona Revised Statutes: 13-604, 13-604.01, 13-703, 13-1102, 13-1103, 13-1104, 13-1105, 13-4062, 31-412, 41-1604.11 and 41-1604.13.

Arkansas: Effective in August, 2013, the killing of an “unborn child” is capital murder, murder in the first degree, murder in the second degree, manslaughter, or negligent homicide. Ark. Stat. Ann. § 5-1-102(13)(b)(i)(a), read with Ark. Stat. Ann. §§ 5-10-101 to 5-10-105. (A separate Arkansas law makes it a battery to cause injury to a woman during a Class A misdemeanor to cause her to undergo a miscarriage or stillbirth, or to cause injury under conditions manifesting extreme indifference to human life and that results in a miscarriage or stillbirth. Ark. Stat. Ann. § 5-13-201 (a)(5)(a).) Until August, 2013, “unborn child” was defined as a fetus of 12 weeks or older, but Act 1032 of the 2013 Regular Session (SB 417) changed the definition to “offspring of human beings from conception until birth.”

Florida: The “Florida Unborn Victims of Violence Act,” effective October 1, 2014, provides that generally, any person who while committing a crime “causes the death of, or bodily injury to, an unborn child commits a separate offense,” and that the punishment “is the same as the punishment provided . . . had the injury or death occurred to the mother of the unborn child,” except that the death penalty may not be imposed. The law defines “unborn child” as “a member of the species homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb.” Florida Statutes section 775.021 (5).

Georgia: Legislation taking effect July 1, 2006 (SB 77) recognizes an “unborn child” (defined as “a member of the species homo sapiens at any stage of development who is carried in the womb”) as a victim of the offenses of feticide, voluntary manslaughter of an unborn child, assault of an unborn child, and battery of an unborn child. (Official Code of Georgia Annotated, Sections 16-5-20, 16-5-28, 16-5-29, 16-5-80) Legislation (SB 529) taking effect July 1, 2008 recognizes the crimes of “feticide by vehicle” in the first and second degree. (Section 40-6-393.1)

Idaho: Murder is defined as the killing of a “human embryo or fetus” under certain conditions. The law provides that manslaughter includes the unlawful killing of a human embryo or fetus without malice. The law provides that a person commits aggravated battery when, in committing battery upon the person of a pregnant female, that person causes great bodily harm, permanent disability or permanent disfigurement to an embryo or fetus. Idaho Sess. Law Chap. 330 (SB1344)(2002).

Illinois: The killing of an “unborn child” at any stage of pre-natal development is intentional homicide, voluntary manslaughter, or involuntary manslaughter or reckless homicide. Ill. Comp. Stat. ch. 720, §§5/9-1.2, 5/9-2.1, 5/9-3.2 (1993). Ill. Rev. Stat. ch. 720 § 5/12-3.1. A person commits battery of an unborn child if he intentionally or knowingly without legal justification and by any means causes bodily harm to an unborn child. Read with Ill. Rev. Stat. ch. 720 § 5/12-4.4.

Indiana: The killing of “a fetus in any stage of development” is murder, voluntary manslaughter, or involuntary manslaughter. (The application of this principle “at any stage of development” was effectuated by enactment of Senate Enrolled Act No. 203, effective July 1, 2018; previously these provisions applied only at “viability.”) These provisions of law are inapplicable to “a pregnant woman who terminates her own pregnancy or kills a fetus that she is carrying,” or to any legal abortion. Indiana Code 35-42-1-1, 35-42-1-3, 35-42-1-4, 35-42-1-6, 35-42-1-6.5.

Kansas: Under “Alexa’s Law,” signed into law on May 9, 2007, as part of HB 2062, effective July 1, 2007, an “unborn child,” meaning “a living individual organism of the species homo sapiens, in utero, at any stage of gestation from fertilization to birth,” is defined as a “person” and a “human being” for the purposes of the Kansas statutes against first degree murder, second degree murder, capital murder, voluntary manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter, vehicular homicide, and numerous battery offenses.

Kentucky: Since February, 2004, Kentucky law establishes a crime of “fetal homicide” in the first, second, third, and fourth degrees. The law covers an “unborn child,” defined as “a member of the species homo sapiens in utero from conception onward, without regard to age, health, or condition of dependency.”

Louisiana: The killing of an “unborn child” is first degree feticide, second degree feticide, or third degree feticide. La. Rev. Stat. Ann. §§14:32.5 – 14.32.8, read with §§14:2(1), (7), (11) (West 1997).

Michigan: The killing of an “unborn quick child” is manslaughter under Mich. Stat. Ann. § 28.555. The Supreme Court of Michigan interpreted this statute to apply to only those unborn children who are viable. Larkin v. Cahalan, 208 N.W.2d 176 (Mich. 1973). However, a separate Michigan law, effective Jan. 1, 1999, provides felony penalties for actions that intentionally, or in wanton or willful disregard for consequences, cause a “miscarriage or stillbirth,” or cause “aggravated physical injury to an embryo or fetus.”(M.C.L. 750.90a through 750.90f)

Minnesota: Since 1986 the killing of an “unborn child” at any stage of pre-natal development is murder (first, second, or third degree) or manslaughter, (first or second degree). It is also a felony to cause the death of an “unborn child” during the commission of a felony. Minn. Stat. Ann. §§609.266, 609.2661- 609.2665, 609.268(1) (West 1987). The death of an “unborn child” through operation of a motor vehicle is criminal vehicular operation. Minn. Stat. Ann. §609.21 (West 1999).

Mississippi: Under a law enacted May 6, 2004, and effective July 1, 2004, for purposes of enumerated state laws dealing with various types of homicide and certain other violent crimes, “the term ‘human being’ includes an unborn child at every stage of gestation from conception until live birth and the term ‘unborn child’ means a member of the species homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb.” (SB 2869) In 2011, the legislature revised the law to clarify that certain conduct resulting in “serious physical injury to the embryo or fetus” is a felony punishable by up to 20 years imprisonment. (SB No. 2615, signed February 24, 2011, effective July 1, 2011.)

Missouri: HB 1596, enacted in 1986, placed a new provision, §1.205.2, in to the basic definitions section of the Missouri code. It states in part: “The life of each human being begins at conception . . . Effective January 1, 1988, the laws of this state shall be interpreted and construed to acknowledge on behalf of the unborn child at every stage of development, all the rights, privileges, and immunities available to other persons, citizens, and residents of this state, subject only to the Constitution of the United States, and decisional interpretations thereof by the United States Supreme Court and specific provisions to the contrary in the statutes and constitution of this state.” Further, “the term ‘unborn children’ or ‘unborn child’ shall include all unborn child or children or the offspring of human beings from the moment of conception until birth at every stage of biological development.” The U.S. Supreme Court, in Webster v. Reproductive Health Services (1989), declined to invalidate this law, holding that it was up to the Missouri courts to determine its application outside of the scope of the abortion-related rights that had been established in past U.S. Supreme Court decisions. Subsequently, in 1995, the Missouri Supreme Court held that §1.205.2 incorporates the “intention of the general assembly that courts should read all Missouri statutes in pari materia [on the same subject] with this section,” and construed the state’s wrongful death law to be covered by it. Connor v. Monkem Co., Inc., 898 S.W.2d 89. Other state court rulings have specifically applied the principle to the crimes of involuntary manslaughter ((State v. Knapp, 843 S.W. 2nd 345 (Mo. 1992)) and murder ((State v. Holcomb, 956 S.W. 2nd 286 (Mo. App. W.D. 1997)).

Nebraska: The killing of an “unborn child” at any stage of pre-natal development is murder in the first degree, second degree, or manslaughter. Neb. Rev. Stat. § 28-391 to § 28-394. (2002) In addition, “The Assault of an Unborn Child Act,” effective April 13, 2006, provides that a criminal attacker who causes “serious bodily injury” to an unborn child commits the offense of “assault on an unborn child” in the first, second, or third degree. “Unborn child” is defined as “an individual member of the species Homo sapiens at any stage of development in utero.” (LB 57, 2006)

North Carolina: House Bill 215, titled the Unborn Victims of Violence Act / Ethen’s Law, signed April 29, 2011 and effective December 1, 2011, recognizes an “unborn child” (defined as “a member of the species homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb”) as a victim for the crimes of “murder of an unborn child,” “voluntary manslaughter of an unborn child,” “involuntary manslaughter of an unborn child,” “assault inflicting serious bodily injury on an unborn child,” and “battery of an unborn child.” (N.C. Gen. Stat. § 14-23.1-14-23.8).

North Dakota: Since 1987 the killing of an “unborn child” at any stage of pre-natal development is murder, felony murder, manslaughter, or negligent homicide. N.D. Cent. Code §§12.1-17.1-01 to 12.1-17.1-04 (1997).

Ohio: At any stage of pre-natal development, if an “unborn member of the species homo sapiens, who is or was carried in the womb of another” is killed, it is aggravated murder, murder, voluntary manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter, negligent homicide, aggravated vehicular homicide, and vehicular homicide. Ohio Rev. Code Ann. §§ 2903.01 to 2903.07, 2903.09 (Anderson 1996 & Supp. 1998).

Oklahoma: House Bill 1686, signed into law on May 20, 2005, recognizes “an unborn child” as a victim under state laws against murder, manslaughter, and certain other acts of violence. The law defines “unborn child” as “the unborn offspring of human beings from the moment of conception, through pregnancy, and until live birth including the human conceptus, zygote, morula, blastocyst, embryo and fetus.” Following upon the law enacted in 2005, Senate Bill 1742, signed into law May 23, 2006, ensures that Oklahoma’s recognition of the unborn child as a separate victim applies uniformly across all of Oklahoma’s homicide statutes.

Pennsylvania: An individual commits criminal homicide in the first, second, or third-degree, or voluntary manslaughter of an “unborn child” if the individual intentionally, knowingly, recklessly or negligently causes the death of an unborn child. 18 Pa. Cons. Stat. Ann. §§ 2601 to 2609 (1997) “Unborn child” and “fetus.” Each term shall mean an individual organism of the species Homo sapiens from fertilization until live birth.” On December 27, 2006, in the case of Commonwealth of Pennsylvania v. Bullock (J-43-2006), the Pennsylvania Supreme Court unanimously rejected an array of constitutional challenges to the law, including claims based on Roe v. Wade and equal protection doctrine.

South Carolina: S. 1084, signed into law and effective on June 2, 2006, recognizes a “child in utero” who is injured or killed during an act of criminal violence as a separate victim of a separate offense. The term “child in utero” is defined as “a member of the species homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb.”

South Dakota: The killing of an “unborn child” at any stage of pre-natal development is fetal homicide, manslaughter, or vehicular homicide. S.D. Codified Laws Ann. §22-16-1, 22-16-1.1, 22-16-15(5), 22-16-20, and 22-16-41, read with §§ 22-1-2(31), 22-1-2(50A) (Supp. 1997).

Tennessee: Effective July 1, 2012 (HB 3517, enacted as Pub. Ch. 1006), Tennessee law includes “a human embryo or fetus at any stage of gestation in utero” as a victim of such offenses as murder, voluntary manslaughter, vehicular homicide, and reckless homicide. See Tennessee Code Annotated, Sections 39-13-107 and 39-13-214. This law replaces a law that took effect in 2011, which had applied the same principle to “a fetus of a human being.” The new language is intended to ensure that the protection extends throughout the period of pre-natal development, along with other technical changes. Prior to 2011, Tennessee law recognized an unborn child as a crime victim only after “viability.”

Texas: Under a law signed June 20, 2003, and effective September 1, 2003, the protections of the entire criminal code extend to “an unborn child at every stage of gestation from fertilization until birth.” The law does not apply to “conduct committed by the mother of the unborn child” or to “a lawful medical procedure performed by a physician or other licensed health care provider with the requisite consent.” (SB 319, Prenatal Protection Act)

Utah: The killing of an “unborn child” at any stage of pre-natal development is treated as any other homicide. Utah Code Ann. § 76-5-201 et seq. (Supp. 1998)and UT SB 178 (2002). See Utah Supreme Court decision in State of Utah v. MacGuire (January 23, 2004).

Virginia: Effective July 1, 2004, Code of Virginia Section 18.2-32.2 provides: “Any person who unlawfully, willfully, deliberately, maliciously and with premeditation kills the fetus of another” may be imprisoned from 20 years to life; and any person who does so without premeditation may be imprisoned for not less than five nor more than 40 years.

West Virginia: 2005 Senate Bill 146, signed into law on May 20, 2005, provided that “a pregnant woman and the embryo or fetus she is carrying in the womb constitute separate and distinct victims” for purposes of the state laws governing murder, manslaughter, and certain other crimes of violence. Code of West Virginia Section 61-2-30.

Wisconsin: Since 1998 the killing of an “unborn child” at any stage of pre-natal development is first-degree intentional homicide, first-degree reckless homicide, second-degree intentional homicide, second-degree reckless homicide, homicide by negligent handling of dangerous weapon, explosives or fire, homicide by intoxicated use of vehicle or firearm, or homicide by negligent operation of vehicle. Wis. Stat. Ann. §§939.75, 939.24, 939.25, 940.01, 940.02, 940.05, 940.06, 940.08, 940.09, 940.10 (West 1998).

[Silenoz]

Any women want to input thoughts into this thread?

Maybe some of your daughters?

My wife (hardcore conservative) and mother (hardcore liberal nurse) are both pro-life

My sister is a hippie wingbat that worked at or volunteered for or consulted for Planned Parenthood at some point. I wasn't really listening. Suffice to say she lives vicariously through my children.

[89Hen]

Any women want to input thoughts into this thread?

Maybe some of your daughters?

Mrs89 and 89Henette are both pro life.

[Silenoz]

And your daughters, trip? Or are they all dead?

[89Hen]

Second, the fetus has rights. So does the mother. Fetuses don't have full rights.

You're going to have to give more than that. What rights do they and don't they have? The right to life seems like the most basic of rights.

[Skjellyfetti]

First, we're talking about fetuses - not babies.

Second, the fetus has rights. So does the mother. Fetuses don't have full rights. Personhood is established by the state in every other matter by the day you're born - not the day you're conceived.




Now, question for you - should abortion be treated as murder? Why or why not?

https://www.nrlc.org/federal/unbornvict ... aws092302/

SCOTUS disagrees.




Should abortion be treated as murder? Why or why not?

[Silenoz]

https://www.nrlc.org/federal/unbornvict ... aws092302/

SCOTUS disagrees.

Knock on wood

[89Hen]

https://www.nrlc.org/federal/unbornvict ... aws092302/

SCOTUS disagrees.




Should abortion be treated as murder? Why or why not?

Maybe not for long there Jelly. That's why we're having this discussion.

No, abortion should not be treated as murder because it is legal now.

[dbackjon]

When it is born. Your birthday.

Got it. Partial birth abortions are OK with Jon.

LMAO

[∞∞∞]

So if a teenage girl has sex, gets pregnant, and is completely unprepared for motherhood and scared as all hell, we should make it worse for her by making it illegal and thus medically unsafe to seek out the procedure.

And then on top of that, the small-goverment you guys love so much should charge her for murder and ruin the rest of her life. What's next? Police going undercover as doctors to do abortion sting operations?

"Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" lmao

[89Hen]

Got it. Partial birth abortions are OK with Jon.

LMAO

At what? You said it.

[89Hen]

So if a teenage girl has sex, gets pregnant, and is completely unprepared for motherhood and scared as all hell, we should make it worse for her by making it illegal and thus medically unsafe to seek out the procedure.

And then on top of that, the small-goverment you guys love so much should charge her for murder and ruin the rest of her life. What's next? Police going undercover as doctors to do abortion sting operations?

"Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" lmao

[Silenoz]

So if a teenage girl has sex, gets pregnant, and is completely unprepared for motherhood and scared as all hell, we should make it worse for her by making it illegal and thus medically unsafe to seek out the procedure.

And then on top of that, the small-goverment you guys love so much should charge her for murder and ruin the rest of her life. What's next? Police going undercover as doctors to do abortion sting operations?

"Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" lmao

Could be worse. She could be dead.

[Ibanez]

Any women want to input thoughts into this thread?

Maybe some of your daughters?

My liberal and trump hatin wife and mother in law share my POV.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Col Hogan]

Any women want to input thoughts into this thread?

Maybe some of your daughters?

My daughter (34) and my daughter-in-law (35) are both strongly pro-life...

One is liberal on most other issues and takes flak from fellow liberals for her anti-abortion stance...

My wife is also pro-life...

[Ibanez]

You're too smart to fall for this pro-choice talking point that was mentioned in the alpha post of this thread. Do you have any evidence of this?

I see it with my own eyes. I've been a Catholic for every moment of the 45 years I've been on this planet and without a doubt there is a mountain's worth of effort by the Church and by members of it (laypeople and other) to prevent abortions and a paltry amount of specific services to help a mother not only through the rest of her pregnancy, if she carries full term, but also through the raising of that child. Show me more on the other side of the coin and I would feel better about the future when science advances and that collection of cells that is the first stage of human life can live outside the womb and we don't even need to consider abortion any longer.

Oh, and I'm all for contraception as well. Heck, the Church's own teaching on family planning (not the rythymn method, the other method with the tracking of waking temperature, among other things) is actually a tool that works and is science based. If you follow it, you can get pregnant (if that's your goal) or your can avoid pregnancy (if that's your goal). So the Church already has a tool in place to avoid pregnancy, why not just apply it to all contraceptives. Let's be honest, God is supposedly all powerful and the creator of the universe - if it's his plan that you should become pregnant I don't see how that thin layer of latex is going to be like kryptonite to Him and would stop that plan.

Gods plan- a discussion for another thread/ is a crock. It’s used to make people feel better.


I’m sorry your 4yr Old was raped and murder. But that’s Gods plan. He wanted that to happen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Silenoz]

I’m sorry your 4yr Old was raped and murder. But that’s Gods plan. He wanted that to happen.

Maybe the Muslim or Scientology God was in charge that day. They work in 4 day shifts.

[JoltinJoe]

I don't think there is any genuine doubt that a human life is present at conception. If you asked 100 bioethicists when a human life starts, either 99 or 100 would answer at conception. This is an accepted scientific fact.

This presents two issues: (i) what legal rights does a human life possess at the moment of conception?; and (ii) what are our moral obligations to a human life? Because there is no public consensus as to the second issue, we cannot reach a public consensus on the first.

I am pro-life, but I don't think it makes sense to say "abortion is murder." "Murder" is an intentional taking of a human life. People involved in an abortion do not intend to take a human life. They do not see the life at issue as a human life entitled to the protection of law. If they did, they would not undertake the abortion act. Even when abortion was outlawed across the US, and deemed a felony, there was not a single jurisdiction in the US that treated abortion as "murder." To say "abortion is murder," I think, does more harm to the pro-life cause than advances the cause.

Abortion, however, does present very grave moral consequences. I think the pro-life movement can change more hearts, and prevent more abortions, by emphasizing the sanctity of life and the grave moral consequences of abortion. I think the anti-abortion fight, to be successful, has to be waged on a heart-by-heart and case-by-case basis. We will never outlaw abortion throughout the US, though.

[∞∞∞]

So if a teenage girl has sex, gets pregnant, and is completely unprepared for motherhood and scared as all hell, we should make it worse for her by making it illegal and thus medically unsafe to seek out the procedure.

And then on top of that, the small-goverment you guyps love so much should charge her for murder and ruin the rest of her life. What's next? Police going undercover as doctors to do abortion sting operations?

"Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" lmao

Could be worse. She could be dead.

Well I'm going to ruin this young woman's life, but hey, at least she's not dead...

...the hell is wrong with some of you people? Sympathy lacking much?

And like I said, I'd love to hear from the ladies close to you.

[dbackjon]

LMAO

At what? You said it.

It is a medical procedure that would done when there is no other option, is never chosen since A) there are other options, and B) illegal. It is a boogeyman scare phrase thrown out by the ignorant (either willful or not) to try to demonize women who have to make the tough choice to terminate a WANTED pregnancy that has gone awry.

Fact is vast majority of abortions take place in the first 12 weeks. Less than one percent take place after 20 weeks.

But those facts don't fit your extremist forced-birth agenda.