Coronavirus COVID-19

[Winterborn]

Told ya

https://hotair.com/ed-morrissey/2021/12 ... nt-n436964

That CNN would even allow this person on tells you all you need to know


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Heck, the folks in Canada are saying that anything other than N95 masks are basically virtue signaling.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brun ... -1.6290760

Those cloth and blue surgical masks so many of us have been wearing? They're unlikely to cut it against Omicron, says an expert.

We should all be upping our mask game immediately, warns epidemiology professor Dr. David Fisman of Toronto's Dalla Lana School of Public Health.

"To be honest, we should have been doing this for a while now," Fisman said in an interview with Shift NB, noting "we've known for over a year" that COVID-19 spreads through aerosol.

If it doesn't work on Omicron, that begs the question did it actually work on the previous versions?

Then again most of society is:

[Winterborn]

No, in a mostly vaccinated society they are not effective in any meaningful sense

They are pure theater


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As much as I respect your opinion, I will go with what the Mayo Clinic says on medical advice.

The Mayo Clinic has been sued here in these past several years more than a few times. Their statement reads like it was written by the legal team as a CYA document.

I should know as I have helped draft a couple of CYA documents with legal.

[JohnStOnge]

Noted something interesting just now. I have been regularly monitoring the Louisiana Department of Health (LDH) report on percentages of cases and deaths for given two week periods that were among people not fully vaccinated. Also percentage of current hospitalizations at any given time that are among such people. I use the Louisiana fully vaccinated rate to calculate the relative likelihood that a randomly selected person not fully vaccinated would be a case, death, or hospitalization vs. a randomly selected fully vaccinated person.

I saw a notable change today. The notable change is that, for the week 12/9 - 12/15, a randomly selected person not fully vaccinated would have been 2.2 times as likely to have been a case than a randomly selected vaccinated person was. That is by far the lowest number I've seen since I started looking at this thing. And it's associated with a situation in which the LDH says 84% of cases are now omicron.

Meanwhile, the relative likelihoods involving deaths and hospitalizations are consistent with what I have seen in the past. A randomly selected person not fully vaccinated was 4.4 times as likely to be a death during 12/9 - 12/15 and is 5.6 times as likely to be a hospitalization.

All that is consistent with what's been being said: The vaccines are of limited effectiveness with respect to reducing the risk of infection with omicron but still very effective with respect to hospitalization and death. Of course we have to wait a while to see if that holds up.

The drop to 2.2 times as likely during 12/9 - 12/15 was down from 3.8 times as likely during 12/2 - 12/8.

It could just be random variation. But the 2.2 is the lowest I have seen so far and it's interesting that it coincides with omicron becoming the dominant variant.

[JohnStOnge]

There may be some performance theater involved but you would obviously reduce risk is you could get everybody in a community to wear even cloth masks. There have been numerous studies suggesting that even cloth masks have some effect.

I started off not thinking mask-wearing recommendations were good for the reason CDC articulated at the time. The CDC thought that, whatever protection a mask afforded the wearer, it was likely to be overcome by possible changes in behavior associated with a false sense of security.

But then it became clear that people with asymptomatic infections could transmit the disease. It was always the case that CDC recommended mask wearing by infected people who could transmit the disease. The resulting change in position made perfect sense.

It's not a matter of being indoctrinated. It's pretty obvious that if you've got a bunch of infected people the risk of them transmitting the virus is going to be reduced to some extent by doing something to impede what they exhale.

No, in a mostly vaccinated society they are not effective in any meaningful sense

They are pure theater


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You are incorrect. But I know from experience in dealing with you that you will not admit that regardless of how strong the evidence is to the contrary.

[SeattleGriz]

After you get the vaccine, it takes about 14 days for your immune system to "recalibrate", meaning you are actually more susceptible to catching COVID during that 14 day window.

The whole Michigan football team just got their boosters in the hopes of not losing any players for their bowl playoff game.

Be interesting to see how that works out for them with Omicron out there.

Now I see what's going on. If vaccinated, you don't have to prove you are negative. Very much like when the U Cal football team had 50 positives among vaccinated. The health official deflected by saying they never should have been tested.

Certification. The director of athletics and the institution's chief medical officer must certify that each person with access to the playing field on game day has tested negative for COVID-19 within 72 hours of the kickoff or has been fully vaccinated

[CID1990]

No, in a mostly vaccinated society they are not effective in any meaningful sense

They are pure theater


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You are incorrect. But I know from experience in dealing with you that you will not admit that regardless of how strong the evidence is to the contrary.

LAWL now THAT’s a projection if there ever was one

As I have told other half-baked auto didacts on this board (like Jelly), I don’t have to admit that I’m wrong if I only shoot my mouth off when I know I’m correct.

You should try it sometime


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[Gil Dobie]

As much as I respect your opinion, I will go with what the Mayo Clinic says on medical advice.

The Mayo Clinic has been sued here in these past several years more than a few times. Their statement reads like it was written by the legal team as a CYA document.

I should know as I have helped draft a couple of CYA documents with legal.

I've trusted them to do surgery on my stomach, I don't think I would trust anyone on this messageboard. I'm sure that Dr. had been sued before too.

[Winterborn]

The Mayo Clinic has been sued here in these past several years more than a few times. Their statement reads like it was written by the legal team as a CYA document.

I should know as I have helped draft a couple of CYA documents with legal.

I've trusted them to do surgery on my stomach, I don't think I would trust anyone on this messageboard. I'm sure that Dr. had been sued before too.

Not saying you shouldn't. Just that I have seen these types of statements before and they are usually written not by the people who know the topic but by the legal team.

[Gil Dobie]

I've trusted them to do surgery on my stomach, I don't think I would trust anyone on this messageboard. I'm sure that Dr. had been sued before too.

Not saying you shouldn't. Just that I have seen these types of statements before and they are usually written not by the people who know the topic but by the legal team.

From where I'm at, there is usually expertise behind the statement, that has gone thru several levels of vetting before it's released. And yes, legal is one of the groups that are included in the vetting. We've had to do that many times, for our releases to the customer.

[CID1990]

The Mayo Clinic has been sued here in these past several years more than a few times. Their statement reads like it was written by the legal team as a CYA document.

I should know as I have helped draft a couple of CYA documents with legal.

I've trusted them to do surgery on my stomach, I don't think I would trust anyone on this messageboard. I'm sure that Dr. had been sued before too.

Surgeons have millions of dollars in malpractice insurance. They sometimes make mistakes. But surgeons cannot elect to not cut into your pericardium for fear of the damage they might do to you. Risk is baked in to what surgeons do.

Medical press offices operate under a different calculus. They generally have to insulate themselves against the 0.01% happenstance and as a result they cover ALL the bases.

Arguing that a cloth mask is better than no mask is TRUE. But arguing that a cloth mask confers anything other than the most minuscule protections against a VIRUS is disingenuous, and a gross misrepresentation of the actual science.

Wearing a cloth mask vs wearing no mask at all confers suck a tiny benefit that you would think someone so pathologically obsessed with statistics like JSO would recognize it. But he has been infected with the Trump virus and now he’s gone haywire


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[Gil Dobie]

I've trusted them to do surgery on my stomach, I don't think I would trust anyone on this messageboard. I'm sure that Dr. had been sued before too.

Surgeons have millions of dollars in malpractice insurance. They sometimes make mistakes. But surgeons cannot elect to not cut into your pericardium for fear of the damage they might do to you. Risk is baked in to what surgeons do.

Medical press offices operate under a different calculus. They generally have to insulate themselves against the 0.01% happenstance and as a result they cover ALL the bases.

Arguing that a cloth mask is better than no mask is TRUE. But arguing that a cloth mask confers anything other than the most minuscule protections against a VIRUS is disingenuous, and a gross misrepresentation of the actual science.


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I've never said mask protect people from getting the virus. It reduces the chance of person wearing the mask, from spreading the virus, along with the other preventive measures.

From the Mayo site

Can face masks help slow the spread of the coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2) that causes COVID-19? Yes. Face masks combined with other preventive measures, such as getting vaccinated, frequent hand-washing and physical distancing, can help slow the spread of the virus.

[CID1990]

Surgeons have millions of dollars in malpractice insurance. They sometimes make mistakes. But surgeons cannot elect to not cut into your pericardium for fear of the damage they might do to you. Risk is baked in to what surgeons do.

Medical press offices operate under a different calculus. They generally have to insulate themselves against the 0.01% happenstance and as a result they cover ALL the bases.

Arguing that a cloth mask is better than no mask is TRUE. But arguing that a cloth mask confers anything other than the most minuscule protections against a VIRUS is disingenuous, and a gross misrepresentation of the actual science.


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I've never said mask protect people from getting the virus. It reduces the chance of person wearing the mask, from spreading the virus, along with the other preventive measures.

From the Mayo site

Can face masks help slow the spread of the coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2) that causes COVID-19? Yes. Face masks combined with other preventive measures, such as getting vaccinated, frequent hand-washing and physical distancing, can help slow the spread of the virus.

Ok Gil

Like I said, there’s nothing wrong with following Mayo’s guidance

Hell, wear a positive pressure suit if you like

Apparently DOCTOR Jill Biden, one step away from her geriatric husband, doesn’t feel that strongly about it

https://hotair.com/ed-morrissey/2021/12 ... se-n437417


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[UNI88]

You are incorrect. But I know from experience in dealing with you that you will not admit that regardless of how strong the evidence is to the contrary.

LAWL now THAT’s a projection if there ever was one

As I have told other half-baked auto didacts on this board (like Jelly), I don’t have to admit that I’m wrong if I only shoot my mouth off when I know I’m correct.

You should try it sometime

I at that one. JSO talking about someone else not admitting something '"regardless of how strong the evidence is to the contrary" is beyond ironic.

[Gil Dobie]

I've never said mask protect people from getting the virus. It reduces the chance of person wearing the mask, from spreading the virus, along with the other preventive measures.

From the Mayo site

Can face masks help slow the spread of the coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2) that causes COVID-19? Yes. Face masks combined with other preventive measures, such as getting vaccinated, frequent hand-washing and physical distancing, can help slow the spread of the virus.

Ok Gil

Like I said, there’s nothing wrong with following Mayo’s guidance

Hell, wear a positive pressure suit if you like

Apparently DOCTOR Jill Biden, one step away from her geriatric husband, doesn’t feel that strongly about it

https://hotair.com/ed-morrissey/2021/12 ... se-n437417


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I'll go with Mayo, you go roll with the Biden's. I don't wear shit, I'm vaccinated. You are reading too much into the mask thing.

[CID1990]

Ok Gil

Like I said, there’s nothing wrong with following Mayo’s guidance

Hell, wear a positive pressure suit if you like

Apparently DOCTOR Jill Biden, one step away from her geriatric husband, doesn’t feel that strongly about it

https://hotair.com/ed-morrissey/2021/12 ... se-n437417


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I'll go with Mayo, you go roll with the Biden's. I don't wear shit, I'm vaccinated. You are reading too much into the mask thing.

I’m vaccinated too, and I don’t wear a mask.

That’s the point of being vaccinated, right?


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[Gil Dobie]

I'll go with Mayo, you go roll with the Biden's. I don't wear shit, I'm vaccinated. You are reading too much into the mask thing.

I’m vaccinated too, and I don’t wear a mask.

That’s the point of being vaccinated, right?


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Yes it is.

[BDKJMU]

Biden admin fuck up..
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/12 ... e-holidays

[BDKJMU]

South Dakota holding out!

The good news, however, is that Omicron's hospitalization rate is about 90 to 96 percent lower than Delta, which rampaged through much of the US in August.

'In the past, we roughly thought that COVID was 10 times worse than flu and now we have a variant that is probably at least 10 times less severe,' Murray said. 'So, omicron will probably … be less severe than flu but much more transmissible.'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... rch-1.html

[SeattleGriz]

Well, well. Seems the "asymptomatic spreaders" narrative is starting to take a beating. If you remember, I've been harping on this one for awhile. My main beef was that it was trotted out for this pandemic without any real proof. Designed to spread fear.

Albeit this is an NFL doctor, he's making his case.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/329 ... ficer-says

The NFL is battling the latest COVID-19 surge with an understanding that symptomatic individuals are driving transmission within the team environment, chief medical officer Dr. Allen Sills said Thursday, with no indications of asymptomatic spread.

That position represents a significant departure from the pandemic-long stance of public health authorities, who have warned about the possibility of individuals spreading the virus without being aware they are infected.

[JohnStOnge]

Heck, the folks in Canada are saying that anything other than N95 masks are basically virtue signaling.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brun ... -1.6290760

If it doesn't work on Omicron, that begs the question did it actually work on the previous versions?

Then again most of society is:

It almost certainly "works" on Omicron in the sense that, if you could get a very high rate of mask usage...even homemade mask usage...you would reduce transmission to some extent. You would reduce the risk. The Canada guy seemed to make a big deal about it being transmitted in aerosols. Here is a quote from the study report at https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118:

The Usher Institute incorporated laboratory as well as epidemiological evidence in their review (18), finding that “homemade masks worn by sick people can reduce virus transmission by mitigating aerosol dispersal.

A guy in Canada...even a highly qualified guy in Canada...expressing concern over cloth masks not being as effective as other types of masks and/or over risk increased by masks that don't fit as well as they should does not mean masks to not "work" in terms of reducing risk.

[JohnStOnge]

I got my second dose of Moderna on April 8. At the time the CDC recommendations said you normally didn't have to wear a mask if you were fully vaccinated. I was thrilled. But, shortly thereafter, I read the paper at https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7017e2.htm and decided to go back to wearing a mask when I went to the store, etc. I did it out of an abundance of caution to protect other people and to do my part in lowering risk of community spread.

This is why: The study described at the link is, I think, a very good one. It was in a relatively controlled situation where they could routinely test everybody. They were able to identify asymptomatic cases because they were testing care facility residents daily as well as testing health care staff twice per week. The study is also interesting because the variant involved, though not one that made the news, had multiple spike protein mutations.

You can see results by clicking on the "Table" link to the right. Unvaccinated people were twice as likely to get infected as fully vaccinated people were. But the big difference was that, if vaccinated people DID get infected, they were much more likely to be asymptomatic. 14 of 22 infections among vaccinated were asymptomatic vs. just 2 of 22 infections among the unvaccinated. That is a highly "significant" difference in terms of statistical significance (>0,99% confidence). It also means that, while vaccinated people in the study were less likely to be infected, they were MORE likely to be asymptomatic infections (91% confidence). 14 of the 16 asymptomatic infections among people in that study were vaccinated people.

That made me decide to start wearing a mask again. The CDC was saying, at the time, that even if you were infected you were much less likely to transmit due to lower viral load. But when I (for example) went to a store I did not mind the VERY minor inconvenience of putting on a mask in order to lower the risk to the poor people who have to be in that store for hours interacting with people they don't know anything about.

That's not "virtue signaling." That's acting responsibly in consideration of other people.

[JohnStOnge]

Shocker. It looks like there is an association such that more educated people are more likely to wear a mask always or most of the time.

First time I checked on that question. I used the polling results at https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/wpndi3r0pc/ ... Report.pdf. The polling question is:

n the past seven days, how often have you worn a mask on your face when outside your home?

Unfortunately, they don't have education levels for every body. They just have it for White people, and you have to do a little math because they've do it by the groups White Men without college degrees, White Mean with college degrees, White Women without college degrees, and White Women with college degrees. Once you do the math, you can see that 43% of White respondents without college degrees said they wore a mask "Always" or "Most of the time" while 59% of White respondents WITH college degrees said they wore a mask "Always" or "Most of the time."

As an aside: 81% of Black respondents and 68% of Hispanic respondents said they wore a mask "Always" or "Most of the time." That's consistent with what I see when I go to the store and such. My own anecdotal experience has been to see a much higher proportion of Black people wearing masks than White people. My impression has been that White males are particularly likely to be without masks.

[SeattleGriz]

Shocker. It looks like there is an association such that more educated people are more likely to wear a mask always or most of the time.

First time I checked on that question. I used the polling results at https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/wpndi3r0pc/ ... Report.pdf. The polling question is:

n the past seven days, how often have you worn a mask on your face when outside your home?

Unfortunately, they don't have education levels for every body. They just have it for White people, and you have to do a little math because they've do it by the groups White Men without college degrees, White Mean with college degrees, White Women without college degrees, and White Women with college degrees. Once you do the math, you can see that 43% of White respondents without college degrees said they wore a mask "Always" or "Most of the time" while 59% of White respondents WITH college degrees said they wore a mask "Always" or "Most of the time."

As an aside: 81% of Black respondents and 68% of Hispanic respondents said they wore a mask "Always" or "Most of the time." That's consistent with what I see when I go to the store and such. My own anecdotal experience has been to see a much higher proportion of Black people wearing masks than White people. My impression has been that White males are particularly likely to be without masks.

If I wasn't required to wear a mask, I wouldn't. I'd do what we all did before mask theater. Don't go out and isolate at home if I felt ill. Keep away from those obviously sick, and lastly, sneeze into my elbow if I had to.

Mask problems solved.

Where is your study proving asymptomatic transmission?

[89Hen]

Shocker. It looks like there is an association such that more educated people are more likely to wear a mask always or most of the time.

More educated people are also worse drivers, less socially adept and terrible at sports.

[Ivytalk]

Looks like StOoge has finished his Christmas shopping.