JohnStOnge wrote:John, read Forbidden Fruit. You, like Joe, have no idea what secular humanism is. I think Joe actually does, but is afraid to admit its superiority to theistic belief systems.
I don't think I have to read a book. I can just go to a web page like this one for the Council for Secular Humanism:
http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.ph ... ction=main" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Do you disagree with the way it's described there? Looks pretty consistent with what I thought going in.
You can go to the page at
http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.ph ... sh_defined" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and see a discussion of atheism vs. Secular Humanism ("Drawing Clear Boundaries" section). Looks pretty consistent with what I was talking about. Atheism is absense of belief in diety. But then once you're there, if you want to say that there is some system of ethics...some basis for right and wrong...you have to resort to something. And I think atheists typically resort to Secular Humanism whether they realize it or not.
As for being superior: I don't see it. Secular Humanists think there can be an objective system of ethics in the absence of something higher. That's nonsense. We've been through that before. It is the rotten core upon which their entire house of cards is built. It's not a sustainable "theology."
Like on the next page of the discussion beginning at the last link I posted there is a discussion of the Secular Humanist approach to ethics. The author writes about human happiness and social justice as goals and about designing systems of ethics based on measuring results (presumably in terms of things like human happiness and social justice) of ethical choices.
But they don't contemplate the next question; which is: Why are things like human happiness and social justice important? Or we could ask why it matters if humans are not happy and there is no social justice. They can never have a real answer for that because anything they come up with can be followed by another "why" question.
They think they come off as smart; and I think that's the attractiion of it. They can say that they proceed according to reason and scienfitic inquiry as they stick their noses into the air reassured with respect to how intelligent and broad minded they are. But they apparently can't see the glaring problem with their approach. Or if they do they won't admit it.
You're entitled to your opinion. But you're still wronge.
The track record of the alternative, religion, is atrocious - 2000 years of war and unbridled cruelty towards man. The more theocratic the era, the worst it was. The fucking dark ages was dominated by the church and represents the lowest point in civilization.
John, open your eyes, it wasn't until reason came to the forefront and atheists, deists and scientists and others challenged the church that things got better.
History 101 - It wasn't until a bunch of deists and freethinkers created the bill of rights, declaration and the constitution, that things got better. These documents have done more for humanity than the fucking bible and they were written with the intent to keep religion out of the affairs of state.
John, have you ever asked yourself why there isn't a bill of rights or a detailed universal rights of man or universal rights of children and women or anything even remotely close in the bible? Can you imagine what the world would look like if it had one? Why did it take 1700 some odd years for this to happen? You know why? Because no one was fucking thinking. They were beaten down by the church and its rigid dogma and no one questioned their authority.
This is what theistic based ethics and morality will get you - centuries of war and cruelty.
And today...the most violent place on earth right now (middle east) is also the most religious. The catholics have fucked enough boys to fill a nation in the last century. It will never end with people's heads in the clouds thinking "fuck it, I've got my special friend in Jesus, it'll be OK"
Think what you want but fact is, the most peaceful, happy and prosperous nations on the planet are ones that veer secular.
Next.....
"Sarah Palin absolutely blew AWAY the audience tonight. If there was any doubt as to whether she was savvy enough, tough enough or smart enough to carry the mantle of Vice President, she put those fears to rest tonight. She took on Barack Obama DIRECTLY on every issue and exposed... She did it with warmth and humor, and came across as the every-person....it's becoming mroe and more clear that she was a genius pick for McCain."
AZGrizfan - Summer 2008
