Google is your friend.kalm wrote:AZGrizFan wrote:
No. And no.
So you got nothin from Bernie in his own words about the means of production?
Perhaps there's some on AOC beyond memes and right wing postulation. I don't know.
Didn't Grover Norquist suggest shrinking government to the size it could be placed in a bathtub and drowned?
Your side has its admitted anarchists and the other side has it's consolidated government power statists.
I'll just sit back and watch.
Thoughtful moderate....out!
https://www.democraticunderground.com/1251581267AZGrizFan wrote:Go listen to all the videos that have surfaced recently. He goes waaaay beyond your statement.kalm wrote:
Go find me where he suggests that government should take over the means of production.
It doesn't... at this pointkalm wrote:I agree completely with this. How does government in an even-handed way insure a level playing field or obviously should they even attempt to control the size of business? There are some services and products that ONLY large businesses can undertake. If not, then government must do it and government is the biggest monopoly of all.Ivytalk wrote: Klam, I think you view true competition and true open markets as commerce among a peaceful nation of small shopkeepers, where each merchant has a tidy little market in which he makes a tidy little profit. True competition involves winners and losers. Some merchants fail, and others take over their business and get bigger. What you really object to is the facilitation of that process by government favoritism and subsidy. In other words, cronyism. I don’t disagree with that. However, opposition to business success and “mere bigness” misapprehends what capitalism — and the antitrust laws, for that matter— are all about.
Are public owned corporations and decentralization the same as government controlled means of production?AZGrizFan wrote:https://www.democraticunderground.com/1251581267AZGrizFan wrote:
Go listen to all the videos that have surfaced recently. He goes waaaay beyond your statement.
jagoff.
Good post.Chizzang wrote:It doesn't... at this pointkalm wrote:
I agree completely with this. How does government in an even-handed way insure a level playing field or obviously should they even attempt to control the size of business? There are some services and products that ONLY large businesses can undertake. If not, then government must do it and government is the biggest monopoly of all.
It's bought and Sold like a commodity - just like our justice system at the ground level where it actually interacts with the citizens of this nation. The amount of "justice" you get depends directly on the size of your legal team
Politically:
The old "There's nothing better so fuck off" attitude we get from the top and from the middle class wanna be's that would die defending a system that cares nothing for them - is where the comedy hits it's real stride
As evidence our soldiers are below middle class (unlike Rome or Greece) where they were honored
Like I said above:
we live in a country where fully half of it's poorest citizens actively hate poor people...
It would be unbelievable were it not actually happening before our eyes
Your deep cynicism about America’s legal and economic systems is duly noted. You bang those gongs often.Chizzang wrote:It doesn't... at this pointkalm wrote:
I agree completely with this. How does government in an even-handed way insure a level playing field or obviously should they even attempt to control the size of business? There are some services and products that ONLY large businesses can undertake. If not, then government must do it and government is the biggest monopoly of all.
It's bought and Sold like a commodity - just like our justice system at the ground level where it actually interacts with the citizens of this nation. The amount of "justice" you get depends directly on the size of your legal team
Politically:
The old "There's nothing better so **** off" attitude we get from the top and from the middle class wanna be's that would die defending a system that cares nothing for them - is where the comedy hits it's real stride
As evidence our soldiers are below middle class (unlike Rome or Greece) where they were honored
Like I said above:
we live in a country where fully half of it's poorest citizens actively hate poor people...
It would be unbelievable were it not actually happening before our eyes
kalm wrote:AZGrizFan wrote:
No. And no.
So you got nothin from Bernie in his own words about the means of production?
Clizz is hanging on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society.Ivytalk wrote:Your deep cynicism about America’s legal and economic systems is duly noted. You bang those gongs often.Chizzang wrote:
It doesn't... at this point
It's bought and Sold like a commodity - just like our justice system at the ground level where it actually interacts with the citizens of this nation. The amount of "justice" you get depends directly on the size of your legal team
Politically:
The old "There's nothing better so **** off" attitude we get from the top and from the middle class wanna be's that would die defending a system that cares nothing for them - is where the comedy hits it's real stride
As evidence our soldiers are below middle class (unlike Rome or Greece) where they were honored
Like I said above:
we live in a country where fully half of it's poorest citizens actively hate poor people...
It would be unbelievable were it not actually happening before our eyes
What solutions do you recommend?
He wants worker ownership--a collective. Not "private sector".kalm wrote:Are public owned corporations and decentralization the same as government controlled means of production?
There is nothing that can be recommended (No thing - Nothing)Ivytalk wrote:Your deep cynicism about America’s legal and economic systems is duly noted. You bang those gongs often.Chizzang wrote:
It doesn't... at this point
It's bought and Sold like a commodity - just like our justice system at the ground level where it actually interacts with the citizens of this nation. The amount of "justice" you get depends directly on the size of your legal team
Politically:
The old "There's nothing better so **** off" attitude we get from the top and from the middle class wanna be's that would die defending a system that cares nothing for them - is where the comedy hits it's real stride
As evidence our soldiers are below middle class (unlike Rome or Greece) where they were honored
Like I said above:
we live in a country where fully half of it's poorest citizens actively hate poor people...
It would be unbelievable were it not actually happening before our eyes
What solutions do you recommend?
So worker ownership of a certain business or at least a say in operations is the same as government controlled means of production? Les Schwab tires used to have an excellent profit sharing program with their employees are they a bunch of commies? Rosauers Supermarkets are employee owned. Aren't some of these type of organizations even publicly traded?AZGrizFan wrote:He wants worker ownership--a collective. Not "private sector".kalm wrote:
Are public owned corporations and decentralization the same as government controlled means of production?
So you're saying some of the wealthy are as obnoxious as the poor when it comes to an unfair system and their lot in life?Chizzang wrote:There is nothing that can be recommended (No thing - Nothing)Ivytalk wrote: Your deep cynicism about America’s legal and economic systems is duly noted. You bang those gongs often.
What solutions do you recommend?
that won't cause a lashing out from the status quo hero base
and be immediately queued up as anti-American
and branded as hatred towards the noble hard working wealthy
This version of capitalism has won - the battle is over
We repeatedly brand ourselves as "The Greatest" at everything regarding Nation Building
and anything that dares to question that is squashed as sour grapes
and how dare anyone be so ungrateful and disrespectful
to those who worked so hard before us to build the greatest nation on earth
we've even convinced our poor people that poor people suck
we've got them by the millions fighting to keep things as they are
My recommendation is that those of us who can - might as well enjoy our lives
and be thankful that we got the opportunity to succeed and thrive when we did
I feel like I'm the luckiest person that I got so many amazing opportunities handed to me
very lucky
Isn't that the same attitude you've espoused here about African Americans and their inability to be successful here in the land of opportunity? "If they can't do it here, then where?"Chizzang wrote:Politically:
The old "There's nothing better so fuck off" attitude we get from the top and from the middle class wanna be's that would die defending a system that cares nothing for them - is where the comedy hits it's real stride
As evidence our soldiers are below middle class (unlike Rome or Greece) where they were honored
AZGrizFan wrote:Isn't that the same attitude you've espoused here about African Americans and their inability to be successful here in the land of opportunity? "If they can't do it here, then where?"Chizzang wrote:Politically:
The old "There's nothing better so fuck off" attitude we get from the top and from the middle class wanna be's that would die defending a system that cares nothing for them - is where the comedy hits it's real stride
As evidence our soldiers are below middle class (unlike Rome or Greece) where they were honored
Our poor would be 1%'ers in almost every other country on the planet. They should consider themselves lucky that the decided to be lazy POS's in the greatest country on earth. A rising tide really DOES lift all boats. Even the lazy ones.Chizzang wrote:AZGrizFan wrote:
Isn't that the same attitude you've espoused here about African Americans and their inability to be successful here in the land of opportunity? "If they can't do it here, then where?"
pretty close...
He look I don't care if we fuck over our poor - just "observing"
This ^ is why I love youAZGrizFan wrote:Our poor would be 1%'ers in almost every other country on the planet. They should consider themselves lucky that the decided to be lazy POS's in the greatest country on earth. A rising tide really DOES lift all boats. Even the lazy ones.Chizzang wrote:
pretty close...
He look I don't care if we fuck over our poor - just "observing"
AZGrizFan wrote:Our poor would be 1%'ers in almost every other country on the planet. They should consider themselves lucky...
89Hen wrote:AZGrizFan wrote:Our poor would be 1%'ers in almost every other country on the planet. They should consider themselves lucky...
Chizzang wrote:This ^ is why I love youAZGrizFan wrote:
Our poor would be 1%'ers in almost every other country on the planet. They should consider themselves lucky that the decided to be lazy POS's in the greatest country on earth. A rising tide really DOES lift all boats. Even the lazy ones.
and hate you
Yeaaaaaahhhhhh.....I think you meant TPS reports.kalm wrote:89Hen wrote:
I know some pretty damned hard working poor folks. Z’s broad brush would be like me imagining all CU CEO’s to spend half their day delegating TPP reports before going back to staring at their Sharper Image Newton’s Cradle...
Talk about lazy....
Bill Lumbergh wrote:Yeaaaaaahhhhhh.....I think you meant TPS reports.kalm wrote:
I know some pretty damned hard working poor folks. Z’s broad brush would be like me imagining all CU CEO’s to spend half their day delegating TPP reports before going back to staring at their Sharper Image Newton’s Cradle...
Talk about lazy....
kalm wrote:Bill Lumbergh wrote:
Yeaaaaaahhhhhh.....I think you meant TPS reports.
I used to have to run scoring and handicap reports through the Tournament Pairimg Program (TPP)
By the way, I know many hard working poor as well...in fact, there are a few in my direct family (siblings and nieces/nephews). But here's a newsflash: despite the fact that some were born on 3rd base (you know, white, heterosexual, Christian male) they STILL have somehow managed to not get a leg up in life. And why might that be, you ask? Well typically its because of piss poor choices made in their youth--laziness...defying the parents...getting in with the wrong crowd...dropping out of HS...having children out of wedlock...drugs/alcohol...becoming a liberal...things like that. Most of them work hard, but the consequences of their early decisions have haunted them for their entire lives. And most of them have children who have perpetuated these poor decision trees and its become somewhat of an "institutionalized poverty" scenario in a couple branches of the ol' family tree.kalm wrote: I know some pretty damned hard working poor folks. Z’s broad brush would be like me imagining all CU CEO’s to spend half their day delegating TPP reports before going back to staring at their Sharper Image Newton’s Cradle...
Talk about lazy....
We do tend to end up where we put ourselves...AZGrizFan wrote:By the way, I know many hard working poor as well...in fact, there are a few in my direct family (siblings and nieces/nephews). But here's a newsflash: despite the fact that some were born on 3rd base (you know, white, heterosexual, Christian male) they STILL have somehow managed to not get a leg up in life. And why might that be, you ask? Well typically its because of piss poor choices made in their youth--laziness...defying the parents...getting in with the wrong crowd...dropping out of HS...having children out of wedlock...drugs/alcohol...becoming a liberal...things like that. Most of them work hard, but the consequences of their early decisions have haunted them for their entire lives. And most of them have children who have perpetuated these poor decision trees and its become somewhat of an "institutionalized poverty" scenario in a couple branches of the ol' family tree.kalm wrote: I know some pretty damned hard working poor folks. Z’s broad brush would be like me imagining all CU CEO’s to spend half their day delegating TPP reports before going back to staring at their Sharper Image Newton’s Cradle...
Talk about lazy....
Oh and, true story: One of my older (fairly successful) sisters told me, in no uncertain terms, that I owed ALL OF MY SUCCESS to the fact that I was a white male. Bitch.
I know you do. Me too. And I also know friends and family who made poor choices and succeeded.AZGrizFan wrote:By the way, I know many hard working poor as well...in fact, there are a few in my direct family (siblings and nieces/nephews). But here's a newsflash: despite the fact that some were born on 3rd base (you know, white, heterosexual, Christian male) they STILL have somehow managed to not get a leg up in life. And why might that be, you ask? Well typically its because of piss poor choices made in their youth--laziness...defying the parents...getting in with the wrong crowd...dropping out of HS...having children out of wedlock...drugs/alcohol...becoming a liberal...things like that. Most of them work hard, but the consequences of their early decisions have haunted them for their entire lives. And most of them have children who have perpetuated these poor decision trees and its become somewhat of an "institutionalized poverty" scenario in a couple branches of the ol' family tree.kalm wrote: I know some pretty damned hard working poor folks. Z’s broad brush would be like me imagining all CU CEO’s to spend half their day delegating TPP reports before going back to staring at their Sharper Image Newton’s Cradle...
Talk about lazy....
Oh and, true story: One of my older (fairly successful) sisters told me, in no uncertain terms, that I owed ALL OF MY SUCCESS to the fact that I was a white male. Bitch.
