Primate Fossil Could Be Key Link in Evolution

[Cap'n Cat]

Cute.



Fact: Man created God in his own image, not the reverse.

That is NOT a fact. Nobody knows if there even is a God so you cannot FACTUALLY state that. You are a seeker too in something my fine plump friend. It is up to each one of us to find it on our own. No matter what IT may be. Peace to you my friend of the feline.

Au contraire, mon frere. It is, indeed, fact. Man did create "God" in his own image. Since there is no proof of the existence of that guy, how in hell did he come about? By man, of course.

And, easy on the plump shit.

[clenz]

That is NOT a fact. Nobody knows if there even is a God so you cannot FACTUALLY state that. You are a seeker too in something my fine plump friend. It is up to each one of us to find it on our own. No matter what IT may be. Peace to you my friend of the feline.

Au contraire, mon frere. It is, indeed, fact. Man did create "God" in his own image. Since there is no proof of the existence of that guy, how in hell did he come about? By man, of course.

And, easy on the plump shit.

You can't prove there is not a God or higher being either. Again, the big bang happened from nowhere, so who is to say God didn't happen from nowhere?

[Cap'n Cat]

You can't prove there is not a God or higher being either. Again, the big bang happened from nowhere, so who is to say God didn't happen from nowhere?

Let me school you a little on the basics of logic, son. You can't prove a negative. If you present that there is, in fact, a "God" or a pink unicorned turtle, or anything, the onus of proof is on the presenter.



Got that? Good.



Now, re the Big Bang, no one knows from whence it appeared. Science is still investigating it. Again, much more credible than "God said so".

We cool?

[clenz]

You can't prove there is not a God or higher being either. Again, the big bang happened from nowhere, so who is to say God didn't happen from nowhere?

Let me school you a little on the basics of logic, son. You can't prove a negative. If you present that there is, in fact, a "God" or a pink unicorned turtle, or anything, the onus of proof is on the presenter.



Got that? Good.



Now, re the Big Bang, no one knows from whence it appeared. Science is still investigating it. Again, much more credible than "God said so".

We cool?

So you have no proof that the big bang happened, and you can't prove that a supreme being didn't cause the big bang?


Both are as illogical as each other.

[Cap'n Cat]

Let me school you a little on the basics of logic, son. You can't prove a negative. If you present that there is, in fact, a "God" or a pink unicorned turtle, or anything, the onus of proof is on the presenter.



Got that? Good.



Now, re the Big Bang, no one knows from whence it appeared. Science is still investigating it. Again, much more credible than "God said so".

We cool?

So you have no proof that the big bang happened, and you can't prove that a supreme being didn't cause the big bang?


Both are as illogical as each other.

In your world, apparently, yes, C. 'Ceptin for one thing - scientists are still working on proving the Big Bang. The religious fucks blinded by IT and such are fat, dumb and happy with "God said so".

Got it, yet?

[catamount man]

I believe in God, the Big Bang, creationism, and evolution. Call me crazy.....or just open-minded to any and everything.

[Cap'n Cat]

I believe in God, the Big Bang, creationism, and evolution. Call me crazy.....or just open-minded to any and everything.

How about gay anal with The Cap'n?

[JMU DJ]

This thread is still going? When's the pope gonna come out and put Galileo under house arrest for daring to say the sun doesn't circle the Earth?

CC to seagrizz: Good scientist accept criticism, questions, and other theories that may poke holes in their story. You see it all over the place, a scientist proposes one thing and then a few years later the story is totally different.Shit, my project has "evolved" so much over the past year... new things get published that make you rethink what you are doing... I just totally changed the end of my research proposal because of someone questioning how things really work. Not knocking you as you are accepting all this criticism, you just mentioned scientist don't like to be second guessed... only the douche bag ones who steal other peoples data/ideas do that.

[Cap'n Cat]

This thread is still going? When's the pope gonna come out and put Galileo under house arrest for daring to say the sun doesn't circle the Earth?

CC to seagrizz: Good scientist accept criticism, questions, and other theories that may poke holes in their story. You see it all over the place, a scientist proposes one thing and then a few years later the story is totally different.Shit, my project has "evolved" so much over the past year... new things get published that make you rethink what you are doing... I just totally changed the end of my research proposal because of someone questioning how things really work. Not knocking you as you are accepting all this criticism, you just mentioned scientist don't like to be second guessed... only the douche bag ones who steal other peoples data/ideas do that.

I didn't say anyt6hing about scientists not liking to be second guessed.

Questioning anything is good. Constructive conflict.

[JMU DJ]

I didn't say anyt6hing about scientists not liking to be second guessed.

Questioning anything is good. Constructive conflict.

Sorry dude, my acronyms only work in E-mail form:

CC = Close Circuit

[clenz]

So you have no proof that the big bang happened, and you can't prove that a supreme being didn't cause the big bang?


Both are as illogical as each other.

In your world, apparently, yes, C. 'Ceptin for one thing - scientists are still working on proving the Big Bang. The religious fucks blinded by IT and such are fat, dumb and happy with "God said so".

Got it, yet?

I get what you are saying, I do. What I am saying is that you, not just you that term is too narrow, many like to point out God "isn't real because you can't prove it", yet honestly the big bang is not provable at this point.



Both, as far as I'm concerned, could be true, and both could be total bullshit. Science has become a religion to some, and they blindly follow anything that people in a white lab coat and goggles say; much in the same way that many religious people follow whatever the guy behind the pulpit, on top of the hill, over the Adhan, etc... blindly.

[D1B]

God, where's native to settle this debate once and for all???

Save us, all-knowing native!!!!

He's fondling AZGrizfan's vagina.

[BlueHen86]

God, where's native to settle this debate once and for all???

Save us, all-knowing native!!!!

native thinks he IS God.

[D1B]

In your world, apparently, yes, C. 'Ceptin for one thing - scientists are still working on proving the Big Bang. The religious fucks blinded by IT and such are fat, dumb and happy with "God said so".

Got it, yet?

I get what you are saying, I do. What I am saying is that you, not just you that term is too narrow, many like to point out God "isn't real because you can't prove it", yet honestly the big bang is not provable at this point.



Both, as far as I'm concerned, could be true, and both could be total bullshit. Science has become a religion to some, and they blindly follow anything that people in a white lab coat and goggles say; much in the same way that many religious people follow whatever the guy behind the pulpit, on top of the hill, over the Adhan, etc... blindly.

Clenz, define religion. Seriously, do a little work and define religion. You'll quickly find that science, atheism - like you stupidly asserted previously and other things the religious like claim as kin, are not even close.

I'll give you some time to do this. If I don't see anything in the next couple days, I will present it - in great detail.

Clenz, the validity of big bang has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the christian interpretation of the origin of life is absolutely bunk and has been discredited by just about every thinking person, including many christians who now view the bible as anything but literal.

Regarding god being real or not: No one can prove ultimately that a god does or does not exist, but a 3rd grader can prove that the christian god is bullshit - supreme bullshit and impossible.

[D1B]

God, where's native to settle this debate once and for all???

Save us, all-knowing native!!!!

native thinks he IS God.

And Z is his bitch, now that Tman is too busy saving corporate america from hippies.

When will Z ever have bitches of his own Always a bridesmaid......

[clenz]

I get what you are saying, I do. What I am saying is that you, not just you that term is too narrow, many like to point out God "isn't real because you can't prove it", yet honestly the big bang is not provable at this point.



Both, as far as I'm concerned, could be true, and both could be total bullshit. Science has become a religion to some, and they blindly follow anything that people in a white lab coat and goggles say; much in the same way that many religious people follow whatever the guy behind the pulpit, on top of the hill, over the Adhan, etc... blindly.

Clenz, define religion. Seriously, do a little work and define religion. You'll quickly find that science, atheism - like you stupidly asserted previously and other things the religious like claim as kin, are not even close.

I'll give you some time to do this. If I don't see anything in the next couple days, I will present it - in great detail.

Clenz, the validity of big bang has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the christian interpretation of the origin of life is absolutely bunk and has been discredited by just about every thinking person, including many christians who now view the bible as anything but literal.

Regarding god being real or not: No one can prove ultimately that a god does or does not exist, but a 3rd grader can prove that the christian god is bullshit - supreme bullshit and impossible.

I would love to do a detailed response, but you won't get one tonight, nor within the next couple days. TBH and I start our moving process tomorrow, inlcuding packing all of our shit, painting our house, cleaning the house, cleaning the old place so her brother can move in, getting the house so we can live in it, I have one of my real good buddies 21st this weekend (birthday is tomorrow actually)...oh and on top of all of that I have to work tomorrow and Friday and coach Thursday and Friday. If I don't have anything by Tuesday, feel free to tell me what you were going to....oh and I forgot Sara is sick as fuck right now. I shouldn't even be on the computer, I should get back to her so she can sleep comfortably (relatively speaking, we haven't had a working AC in a week and a half, and our land lord won't return our calls. Wouldn't be a big deal if it hasn't been hot and humid as fuck in CF the last 3 days. We can't get our packing tape to stay on our boxes because the humidity is too high).

[D1B]

Seattle,
You're a very sharp guy. Hate to see an intelligent person die on such a stupid cross.

I think I would come across better in person. I can easily admit this one has gotten away from me. Too many people coming at me and not enough time to address each question fully.

Hey SG, thanks for a stimulating convo. I know what you mean.

Evolution is beautiful and compatible and complementary to your faith. There is no need for this argument, except for entertainment!

Did you ever read "Darwin's gift to Science and Religion"? If not, PM me and I'll send it to you, along with a bottle of hooch.

Here are a couple reviews from Amazon.com:

From Publishers Weekly
Starred Review. Taking a more pacific tone than Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett in this marvelous little book, Ayala, a UC-Irvine biologist and member of the National Academy of Sciences, offers a way to reconcile religion and science on the issue of evolution. He is uniquely well suited to address this: before becoming an evolutionary biologist, he trained for the Catholic priesthood. According to Ayala, Darwin provides both a clear understanding of the nature of the physical world and an explanation for its flaws that takes the onus for them off of God. Natural selection gives scientists an eminently plausible and verifiable explanation of the shape species and members of those species have taken over millions of years. For religious believers, evolution offers an explanation for the flawed designs—such as the too narrow human birth canal and our badly designed jawbone—that might call into question the work of a benevolent designer. Ayala points out that science and religion perform different roles in human understanding: science offers a way of knowing the material world, but matters of value and meaning—the core of religion—are outside of the scope of scientific investigation. This elegant book provides the single best introduction to Darwin and the development of evolutionary biology now available. Illus. (June)
Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.

Product Description
With the publication in 1859 of "On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection", Charles Darwin established evolution by common descent as the dominant scientific explanation for nature's diversity. This was to be his gift to science and society - at last, we had an explanation for how life came to be on Earth. Scientists agree that the evolutionary origin of animals and plants is a scientific conclusion beyond reasonable doubt. They place it beside such established concepts as the roundness of the earth, its revolution around the sun, and the molecular composition of matter. That evolution has occurred, in other words, is a fact. Yet, as we approach the bicentennial celebration of Darwin's birth, the world finds itself divided over the truth of evolutionary theory.Consistently endorsed as "good science" by experts and overwhelmingly accepted as fact by the scientific community, it is not always accepted by the public - and our schools continue to be battlegrounds for this conflict. From the Tennessee trial of a biology teacher who dared to teach Darwin's theory to his students in 1925 to Tammy Kitzmiller's 2005 battle to keep intelligent design out of the Dover district schools in Pennsylvania, it's clear that we need to cut through the propaganda to quell the cacophony of raging debate. With the publication of "Darwin's Gift", a voice at once fresh and familiar brings a rational, measured perspective to the science of evolution. An acclaimed evolutionary biologist with a background in theology, Francisco Ayala offers clear explanations of the science, reviews the history that led us to ratify Darwin's theories, and ultimately provides a clear path for a confused and conflicted public.

[D1B]

Clenz, define religion. Seriously, do a little work and define religion. You'll quickly find that science, atheism - like you stupidly asserted previously and other things the religious like claim as kin, are not even close.

I'll give you some time to do this. If I don't see anything in the next couple days, I will present it - in great detail.

Clenz, the validity of big bang has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the christian interpretation of the origin of life is absolutely bunk and has been discredited by just about every thinking person, including many christians who now view the bible as anything but literal.

Regarding god being real or not: No one can prove ultimately that a god does or does not exist, but a 3rd grader can prove that the christian god is bullshit - supreme bullshit and impossible.

I would love to do a detailed response, but you won't get one tonight, nor within the next couple days. TBH and I start our moving process tomorrow, inlcuding packing all of our shit, painting our house, cleaning the house, cleaning the old place so her brother can move in, getting the house so we can live in it, I have one of my real good buddies 21st this weekend (birthday is tomorrow actually)...oh and on top of all of that I have to work tomorrow and Friday and coach Thursday and Friday. If I don't have anything by Tuesday, feel free to tell me what you were going to....oh and I forgot Sara is sick as fuck right now. I shouldn't even be on the computer, I should get back to her so she can sleep comfortably (relatively speaking, we haven't had a working AC in a week and a half, and our land lord won't return our calls. Wouldn't be a big deal if it hasn't been hot and humid as fuck in CF the last 3 days. We can't get our packing tape to stay on our boxes because the humidity is too high).

No problem. I'll warn you though, this is not a strong position for you. Save yourself the time and get your stuff done. Hopefully the holiday weekend will give you some time to get caught up.

[clenz]

I would love to do a detailed response, but you won't get one tonight, nor within the next couple days. TBH and I start our moving process tomorrow, inlcuding packing all of our shit, painting our house, cleaning the house, cleaning the old place so her brother can move in, getting the house so we can live in it, I have one of my real good buddies 21st this weekend (birthday is tomorrow actually)...oh and on top of all of that I have to work tomorrow and Friday and coach Thursday and Friday. If I don't have anything by Tuesday, feel free to tell me what you were going to....oh and I forgot Sara is sick as fuck right now. I shouldn't even be on the computer, I should get back to her so she can sleep comfortably (relatively speaking, we haven't had a working AC in a week and a half, and our land lord won't return our calls. Wouldn't be a big deal if it hasn't been hot and humid as fuck in CF the last 3 days. We can't get our packing tape to stay on our boxes because the humidity is too high).

No problem. I'll warn you though, this is not a strong position for you. Save yourself the time and get your stuff done. Hopefully the holiday weekend will give you some time to get caught up.

I'll let you know right now, I bet we are closer in ideology than you would think on this subject. For this sake I am playing devils advocate for shits and giggles, and the responses help me learn and grow...kinda.

[D1B]

No problem. I'll warn you though, this is not a strong position for you. Save yourself the time and get your stuff done. Hopefully the holiday weekend will give you some time to get caught up.

I'll let you know right now, I bet we are closer in ideology than you would think on this subject. For this sake I am playing devils advocate for shits and giggles, and the responses help me learn and grow...kinda.

I would agree.

IMO, there is a god and she is most just. That all I think I know.

[SeattleGriz]

What holes do you see in evolution theory?

Yes, there are fossil gaps, but those are closing as more and more fossils are found.

Finally got a chance to come back and answer your question. I wish I could honestly say I came up with all of these ideas all by myself, but have to rely on others much smarter than I to find these holes.

1) Incomplete fossil record (which you stated).
2) Lack of a cogent explanation by Evolutionists for the Cambrian explosion in diversity.
3) The holy grail of evolutionists, the "Tree of Life" has been torn to pieces by negative evidence found by evolutionists.
4) Lack of missing links. In regards to this particular thread, why all the excitement to finally have proof? I thought evolution was already complete? Plus there still is a large void of intermediate fossils.
5) Too many inconsistencies. I had an example, but deleted it because it just went on and on. I would be more than happy to provide one if you really want one.

[SeattleGriz]

I think I would come across better in person. I can easily admit this one has gotten away from me. Too many people coming at me and not enough time to address each question fully.

Hey SG, thanks for a stimulating convo. I know what you mean.

Evolution is beautiful and compatible and complementary to your faith. There is no need for this argument, except for entertainment!

Did you ever read "Darwin's gift to Science and Religion"? If not, PM me and I'll send it to you, along with a bottle of hooch.

Agreed there. As I have said many times on the boards, I need to do a better job of conveying my tone better. I think I sometimes come off as a dick, when it was never meant that way.

I never did get a chance to read that book, but since you have asked twice, I will read it if you send it. I will PM you my address.

For what it is worth, I just try to play devils advocate on the very few topics on this board that I can. I realize much of what I am asking for proof, will be very hard to prove just because it happened so long ago.

[D1B]

What holes do you see in evolution theory?

Yes, there are fossil gaps, but those are closing as more and more fossils are found.

Finally got a chance to come back and answer your question. I wish I could honestly say I came up with all of these ideas all by myself, but have to rely on others much smarter than I to find these holes.

1) Incomplete fossil record (which you stated).
*He also pointed out that the fossil record is getting fuller every day. There are very complete fossil records for thousands of individual species, thus validating theory. That we have not found complete fossil records of the millions upon millions of species that have existed is not a very strong criticism, in fact it's reaching.

2) Lack of a cogent explanation by Evolutionists for the Cambrian explosion in diversity.
*Explain this and explain the ID explanation of the Cambrian explosion including why would an intelligent designer create such flawed beasts.

3) The holy grail of evolutionists, the "Tree of Life" has been torn to pieces by negative evidence found by evolutionists.
*Explain this.

4) Lack of missing links. In regards to this particular thread, why all the excitement to finally have proof? I thought evolution was already complete? Plus there still is a large void of intermediate fossils.

*See #1. BTW, this particular fossil is exciting because it's part of OUR fossil record. Anything related to humans is exciting.

5) Too many inconsistencies. Example below:

*I think you are full of shit here too, but I'll check this out. I remember reading about this criticism and it's flaws. If memory serves, like the fossil record allegation, it's boilerplate religious argument against theory.

It had been shown that by morphological-phylogenetic research that photoreceptor organs (eyes) had developed at least 40 times independently during the evolution of animal diversity. A developmental geneticist, however, showed that all animals with eyes have the same regulator gene, Pax 6, which organizes the construction of the eye. It was therefore concluded at first concluded that all eyes were derived from a single ancestral eye with the Pax 6 gene. But then the geneticist also found Pax 6 in species without eyes, and proposed that they must have descended from ancestors with eyes. However, this scenario turned out to be quite improbable and the wide distribution of Pax 6 required a different explanation. It is now believed that Pax 6, even before the origin of eyes, had an unknown function in eyeless organisms, and was subsequently recruited for its role as an eye organizer.

[AZGrizFan]

Science is voodoo shit.

[D1B]

Hey SG, thanks for a stimulating convo. I know what you mean.

Evolution is beautiful and compatible and complementary to your faith. There is no need for this argument, except for entertainment!

Did you ever read "Darwin's gift to Science and Religion"? If not, PM me and I'll send it to you, along with a bottle of hooch.

Agreed there. As I have said many times on the boards, I need to do a better job of conveying my tone better. I think I sometimes come off as a dick, when it was never meant that way.

I never did get a chance to read that book, but since you have asked twice, I will read it if you send it. I will PM you my address.

For what it is worth, I just try to play devils advocate on the very few topics on this board that I can. I realize much of what I am asking for proof, will be very hard to prove just because it happened so long ago.

Uh, SG you aint a dick. AzGrizfan is.

I hope you enjoy the book.