Coronavirus COVID-19

[LeadBolt]

No, seriously. We use schools for storm shelters all the time. Just wondering why we aren't using them for this. I would think a gym and locker room would be easy to disinfect when done. There must be some reason, I just haven't heard it yet. It just seems like a layup to use schools without admittedly knowing all of the possible issues.

I don't know if it's the reason, but healthcare facilities (and particularly hospitals) are built so that they can't spread disease, especially when it comes to HVAC. Considering this is an airborne virus, it's even more important not to use any facility lying around where the rooms can't be properly isolated, pressurized, dehumidified, etc. Otherwise I imagine there's a real risk of spreading it further.

You're correct, but i was thinking it might be quicker to modify/replace an HVAC system in an existing building than building a new building with a whole new HVAC from ground up. Not necessarily the case I know.

I'd rather the government end up buying a hotel under eminent domain than closing a public school if it can't be cleaned afterwards.

I serve on a local bank board and we've been getting nonstop requests from the hospitality industry to modify loan terms (which we are). Rental income from the gubmint might help out everyone involved.

[HI54UNI]

So a few things, unventilated spaces are health hazards because you're not introducing new air and removing contaminated ones. That's why code requires air changes (ventilation) in nearly every type of facility, but especially so with healthcare.

However, healthcare is tricky because not only do you have to filter the air coming in, you have to filter the air going out so you're not introducing hazardous particulates and pathogens. This is done with HEPA filters which only specialized systems can safely handle.

In hospitals, ventilation also pressurizes the entire building and even within each zone, the spaces are positively pressurized (with the air leaving through dedicated returns). Since air is a fluid and wants to reach equilibrium, if the spaces aren't positively pressurized, outside (unfiltered) air with all its issues begin to enter. And equally so in the other direction if you don't give the air dedicated, filtered ways to return back outside.

And of course without air-conditioning, you introduce moisture which is a whole different issue in healthcare.

Empty out some hospitals of most of their regular patients (can can be moved) into the makeshift hospitals, where special isolation and filtration isn't as important.

Fill those mostly emptied out hospitals (that have the proper HVAC and isolation capabilities) with the Chinese Virus patients.

That's what they're going to do with the 2 navy hospital ships. Move regular patients into those and free up beds in the hospitals.

[Skjellyfetti]

Rand Paul going about his day as normal, even going to the Senate gym, while awaiting his covid test is as stupid as those idiot Spring Breakers.

[UNI88]

God damn it!

Trump and his defenders are full of shit when they point to him implementing a travel ban as evidence that he was REALLY on top of the situation. He f*cked up. No doubt about it.

Trump has been far from perfect, he did some things right and fvcked up some others. The same can be said for Democratic leadership.

Now is the time to put the partisan BS behind us and work together on solutions not assigning blame.

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[93henfan]

Rand Paul going about his day as normal, even going to the Senate gym, while awaiting his covid test is as stupid as those idiot Spring Breakers.

[JohnStOnge]

Trump and his defenders are full of shit when they point to him implementing a travel ban as evidence that he was REALLY on top of the situation. He f*cked up. No doubt about it.

I haven't seen the potential President-elect stepping up to fill the leadership void. You'd think this was the time where a better qualified person would step up and guide the country as a sort of test-drive of his incredible pandemic-crushing skills.

Where's Joe? Can he still save us? Is it too late? Tune in to the next First State Files!!

Somehow I think Biden would not have eliminated pandemic response as a priority for the National Security Council.

Frankly, I also doubt that Biden would have thought that doing a travel ban would do the trick. Can't know that for sure. But I suspect Biden would have paid more attention to what science actually has to day about the matter.

There was clearly existing assessment out there suggesting that travel bans really don't do all that much. I don't think Biden would have been as blind to that as Trump obviously was.

[Ivytalk]

I haven't seen the potential President-elect stepping up to fill the leadership void. You'd think this was the time where a better qualified person would step up and guide the country as a sort of test-drive of his incredible pandemic-crushing skills.

Where's Joe? Can he still save us? Is it too late? Tune in to the next First State Files!!

Somehow I think Biden would not have eliminated pandemic response as a priority for the National Security Council.

Frankly, I also doubt that Biden would have thought that doing a travel ban would do the trick. Can't know that for sure. But I suspect Biden would have paid more attention to what science actually has to day about the matter.

There was clearly existing assessment out there suggesting that travel bans really don't do all that much. I don't think Biden would have been as blind to that as Trump obviously was.

Speaking of partisan BS, look who’s here.

[kalm]

I haven't seen the potential President-elect stepping up to fill the leadership void. You'd think this was the time where a better qualified person would step up and guide the country as a sort of test-drive of his incredible pandemic-crushing skills.

Where's Joe? Can he still save us? Is it too late? Tune in to the next First State Files!!

Somehow I think Biden would not have eliminated pandemic response as a priority for the National Security Council.

Frankly, I also doubt that Biden would have thought that doing a travel ban would do the trick. Can't know that for sure. But I suspect Biden would have paid more attention to what science actually has to day about the matter.

There was clearly existing assessment out there suggesting that travel bans really don't do all that much. I don't think Biden would have been as blind to that as Trump obviously was.

Travel bans don’t do all that much?

[SDHornet]

I get the ventilation issue. If it's a HS gym, why not just turn it off?

So a few things, unventilated spaces are health hazards because you're not introducing new air and removing contaminated ones. That's why code requires air changes (ventilation) in nearly every type of facility, but especially so with healthcare.

However, healthcare is tricky because not only do you have to filter the air coming in, you have to filter the air going out so you're not introducing hazardous particulates and pathogens. This is done with HEPA filters which only specialized systems can safely handle.

In hospitals, ventilation also pressurizes the entire building and even within each zone, the spaces are positively pressurized (with the air leaving through dedicated returns). Since air is a fluid and wants to reach equilibrium, if the spaces aren't positively pressurized, outside (unfiltered) air with all its issues begin to enter. And equally so in the other direction if you don't give the air dedicated, filtered ways to return back outside.

And of course without air-conditioning, you introduce moisture which is a whole different issue in healthcare.

Assuming ordinary conditions, sure. But we're in extraordinary times and extraordinary measures should be taken. Are the triage tents set up to handle hospital overflow going to be ventilated per these standards? Probably not. So again, why not use a local HS gym/convention center, auditoriums, etc as a stop gap?

Also I deal with hazardous environments at work all the time as they relate to confined space (non-medical). We shoot for 12 air changes an hour for normal working conditions, 6 at a bare minimum for areas where regular maintenance doesn't occur. Our guys always have to have sniffers on them regardless.

[JohnStOnge]

Travel bans don’t do all that much?

Correct. See the 2014 assessment I posted earlier.

[SDHornet]

Trump and his defenders are full of shit when they point to him implementing a travel ban as evidence that he was REALLY on top of the situation. He f*cked up. No doubt about it.

Trump has been far from perfect, he did some things right and fvcked up some others. The same can be said for Democratic leadership.

Now is the time to put the partisan BS behind us and work together on solutions not assigning blame.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Yeah but that won't help get rid of Trump in November. Can't let a crisis go to waste now can we.

[SDHornet]

I haven't seen the potential President-elect stepping up to fill the leadership void. You'd think this was the time where a better qualified person would step up and guide the country as a sort of test-drive of his incredible pandemic-crushing skills.

Where's Joe? Can he still save us? Is it too late? Tune in to the next First State Files!!

Somehow I think Biden would not have eliminated pandemic response as a priority for the National Security Council.

Frankly, I also doubt that Biden would have thought that doing a travel ban would do the trick. Can't know that for sure. But I suspect Biden would have paid more attention to what science actually has to day about the matter.

There was clearly existing assessment out there suggesting that travel bans really don't do all that much. I don't think Biden would have been as blind to that as Trump obviously was.

Last I heard Biden and the leftists are still clamoring for open borders, so there's that.

[SDHornet]

[BDKJMU]

I haven't seen the potential President-elect stepping up to fill the leadership void. You'd think this was the time where a better qualified person would step up and guide the country as a sort of test-drive of his incredible pandemic-crushing skills.

Where's Joe? Can he still save us? Is it too late? Tune in to the next First State Files!!

Somehow I think Biden would not have eliminated pandemic response as a priority for the National Security Council.

Frankly, I also doubt that Biden would have thought that doing a travel ban would do the trick. Can't know that for sure. But I suspect Biden would have paid more attention to what science actually has to day about the matter.

There was clearly existing assessment out there suggesting that travel bans really don't do all that much. I don't think Biden would have been as blind to that as Trump obviously was.

You're dumber than a box of rocks if you think Trump's Chinese and European travel bans shouldn't have been done. If anything, they both should have been done earlier, esp China.

[SunCoastBlueHen]

Rehoboth Beach on Friday



On Saturday

They closed all of our beaches on Friday. Luckily, the Intercoastal is still open.



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[UNI88]

And how do the Chinese describe what they're doing to the Uyghurs?

[kalm]

Travel bans don’t do all that much?

Correct. See the 2014 assessment I posted earlier.

Different levels of mitigation/suppression between cities, states, countries would suggest otherwise.

Post the link and I’ll read it.

[Winterborn]

Yep. People are completely distracted by irrelevant case # comparisons.

Go read (long reads, to be sure) the two articles I posted on the previous page....it’s amazing what non-politicized info will do for clarity.

They were very good reads. Thanks for passing them along.

[JohnStOnge]

Somehow I think Biden would not have eliminated pandemic response as a priority for the National Security Council.

Frankly, I also doubt that Biden would have thought that doing a travel ban would do the trick. Can't know that for sure. But I suspect Biden would have paid more attention to what science actually has to day about the matter.

There was clearly existing assessment out there suggesting that travel bans really don't do all that much. I don't think Biden would have been as blind to that as Trump obviously was.

You're dumber than a box of rocks if you think Trump's Chinese and European travel bans shouldn't have been done. If anything, they both should have been done earlier, esp China.

If you read the 2014 assessment I linked that talks about pandemics like this I think you will see that the authors would argue that they should not have been. But that's not my argument. My argument is that they didn't have much impact. Trump did a travel ban with China then acted like that solved the problem. In reality it had very little impact. In fact I don't think one can show from the case data that it had ANY impact.

He then spent a few weeks downplaying the risk and acting like his travel ban had solved the problem.

Right now the US is in 3rd place in total COVID-19 cases behind China and Italy. I've been watching it move up. The last time I looked at it yesterday the US was in 7th place.

The idea that Trump is covered by the fact that he did a China travel ban a little after Italy did is ridiculous. There is no reasonable question that his Administration de-emphasized preparedness for this sort of thing in 2018 and there is no question that he screwed up by virtue of thinking that a travel ban would adequately address the problem.

[BDKJMU]

You're dumber than a box of rocks if you think Trump's Chinese and European travel bans shouldn't have been done. If anything, they both should have been done earlier, esp China.

If you read the 2014 assessment I linked that talks about pandemics like this I think you will see that the authors would argue that they should not have been. But that's not my argument. My argument is that they didn't have much impact. Trump did a travel ban with China then acted like that solved the problem. In reality it had very little impact. In fact I don't think one can show from the case data that it had ANY impact.

He then spent a few weeks downplaying the risk and acting like his travel ban had solved the problem.

Right now the US is in 3rd place in total COVID-19 cases behind China and Italy. I've been watching it move up. The last time I looked at it yesterday the US was in 7th place.

The idea that Trump is covered by the fact that he did a China travel ban a little after Italy did is ridiculous. There is no reasonable question that his Administration de-emphasized preparedness for this sort of thing in 2018 and there is no question that he screwed up by virtue of thinking that a travel ban would adequately address the problem.

Newsflash: No one reads your assessments..

[JohnStOnge]

Here's the way I see the concept about a travel ban with China having minimal effect: By the time you realize China is a problem the virus is out there in the world. It's been introduced to the United States and it's been introduced to a bunch of other countries. If it's highly contagious it's going to spread exponentially. It takes very little time for the virus to "make up" the numbers saved by the travel ban.

So if you do a travel ban you may have a situation where on Day X there are Y cases instead of Y + Z cases. But in a few days the number is going to be Y + Z (at least) due to the exponential spread. Maybe you can say it reached 10 million a few days later than it would've reached that number if you hadn't implemented a travel ban. But in the grand scheme of things you haven't made much difference.

This thing about travel bans not being all that effective is not something I made up. I think if you do your own research you'll end up seeing that it's the consensus among epidemiologists.

[JohnStOnge]

If you read the 2014 assessment I linked that talks about pandemics like this I think you will see that the authors would argue that they should not have been. But that's not my argument. My argument is that they didn't have much impact. Trump did a travel ban with China then acted like that solved the problem. In reality it had very little impact. In fact I don't think one can show from the case data that it had ANY impact.

He then spent a few weeks downplaying the risk and acting like his travel ban had solved the problem.

Right now the US is in 3rd place in total COVID-19 cases behind China and Italy. I've been watching it move up. The last time I looked at it yesterday the US was in 7th place.

The idea that Trump is covered by the fact that he did a China travel ban a little after Italy did is ridiculous. There is no reasonable question that his Administration de-emphasized preparedness for this sort of thing in 2018 and there is no question that he screwed up by virtue of thinking that a travel ban would adequately address the problem.

Newsflash: No one reads your assessments..

It's not my assessment. And if you don't look at assessment by people who are expert at doing such assessments, you are just being willfully ignorant.

Look, if I had looked around and seen evidence that epidemiologists think travel bans make a substantial difference I would have no problem with saying so. But that is clearly not the case. It's clear that the consensus view among epidemiologists is that they are not a big factor in addressing this sort of thing.

I will say that the assessments do make perfect sense to me. If you've got something that is going to increase exponentially the focus should be on preventing it from increasing exponentially. That's not what a travel ban does.

[SDHornet]

And how do the Chinese describe what they're doing to the Uyghurs?

The who?

[dbackjon]

If you read the 2014 assessment I linked that talks about pandemics like this I think you will see that the authors would argue that they should not have been. But that's not my argument. My argument is that they didn't have much impact. Trump did a travel ban with China then acted like that solved the problem. In reality it had very little impact. In fact I don't think one can show from the case data that it had ANY impact.

He then spent a few weeks downplaying the risk and acting like his travel ban had solved the problem.

Right now the US is in 3rd place in total COVID-19 cases behind China and Italy. I've been watching it move up. The last time I looked at it yesterday the US was in 7th place.

The idea that Trump is covered by the fact that he did a China travel ban a little after Italy did is ridiculous. There is no reasonable question that his Administration de-emphasized preparedness for this sort of thing in 2018 and there is no question that he screwed up by virtue of thinking that a travel ban would adequately address the problem.

Newsflash: No one reads your assessments..

You should because he is spot on in this case

[CAA Flagship]

Empty out some hospitals of most of their regular patients (can can be moved) into the makeshift hospitals, where special isolation and filtration isn't as important.

Fill those mostly emptied out hospitals (that have the proper HVAC and isolation capabilities) with the Chinese Virus patients.

That's what they're going to do with the 2 navy hospital ships. Move regular patients into those and free up beds in the hospitals.

I just don't see this idea of segregation of "non-infected" patients working, whether it's the Navy hospital ships or temporary facilities. This virus has a high chance of infiltration into these areas.