Evolution problems

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Re: Evolution problems

Post by Pwns »

Skjellyfetti wrote:
Exactly. Even SeattleGriz readily admits he believes evolution.




And, Pwns.... having an open mind is great. But, the key is being able to think critically and draw conclusions.

Otherwise... we'd all be expandspanos with an incredibly open mind... but, unable to sort through the bullshit.
Belief in evolution existing as a process is one thing, belief in it as being the sole progenitor of all life is another. The people who don't understand it are the people who think bacterial resistance to antibiotics and galapagos finches are the same thing as the billion-year process by which single-cell organisms become multi-trillion cell organisms with complex organ systems. How many times have you seen people make smart-ass remarks about those evil evolution deniers every time some story about a superbug comes out? That's a lot like saying that one cold week in one region of one continent means the world isn't warming. Actually, it's a lot worse.

Your yeast example from earlier isn't very good because there's no real extensive specialization among the cells, the cells don't form their own unique morphologies (e.g. neurons and liver cells in animals having different shapes and properties and such) or epigenetics, and they don't form an independent organism capable of reproduction.

My basic contention with science here is that there are truths that are unknowable. Should we be able to replicate the process of abiogenesis in a lab with all of our knowledge of chemistry and thermodynamics? Should we have computers that can be public defenders or write novels now with the hardware we have now? No one wants to even entertain the idea our assumption of physicalism as it relates to cognition is flawed because that opens a trap door to eeeeeeeeeeevil metaphysical and supernatural stuff. What it all boils down to is that physicalism/materialism is a sacred cow in science and that goes against the principle of free-thought. :nod:
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Re: Evolution problems

Post by Chizzang »

Pwns wrote:
Skjellyfetti wrote:
Exactly. Even SeattleGriz readily admits he believes evolution.




And, Pwns.... having an open mind is great. But, the key is being able to think critically and draw conclusions.

Otherwise... we'd all be expandspanos with an incredibly open mind... but, unable to sort through the bullshit.
Belief in evolution existing as a process is one thing, belief in it as being the sole progenitor of all life is another. The people who don't understand it are the people who think bacterial resistance to antibiotics and galapagos finches are the same thing as the billion-year process by which single-cell organisms become multi-trillion cell organisms with complex organ systems. How many times have you seen people make smart-ass remarks about those evil evolution deniers every time some story about a superbug comes out? That's a lot like saying that one cold week in one region of one continent means the world isn't warming. Actually, it's a lot worse.

Your yeast example from earlier isn't very good because there's no real extensive specialization among the cells, the cells don't form their own unique morphologies (e.g. neurons and liver cells in animals having different shapes and properties and such) or epigenetics, and they don't form an independent organism capable of reproduction.

My basic contention with science here is that there are truths that are unknowable. Should we be able to replicate the process of abiogenesis in a lab with all of our knowledge of chemistry and thermodynamics? Should we have computers that can be public defenders or write novels now with the hardware we have now? No one wants to even entertain the idea our assumption of physicalism as it relates to cognition is flawed because that opens a trap door to eeeeeeeeeeevil metaphysical and supernatural stuff. What it all boils down to is that physicalism/materialism is a sacred cow in science and that goes against the principle of free-thought. :nod:

Right ^
So you would agree that the likelihood of the Biblical God of Moses and Jesus
The one who routinely intervenes in the lives of humans and performed regular miracles is actually mostly a complete and obvious misinterpretation of the data they had at time (combined with obvious lies)

So what we are left with is a completely different understanding of the way GOD MIGHT WORK
which would require a completely different (and honest) reworking of the God Mantra

Right..? That is what you're saying...

:nod:
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Re: Evolution problems

Post by SeattleGriz »

Pwns wrote:
Skjellyfetti wrote:
Exactly. Even SeattleGriz readily admits he believes evolution.




And, Pwns.... having an open mind is great. But, the key is being able to think critically and draw conclusions.

Otherwise... we'd all be expandspanos with an incredibly open mind... but, unable to sort through the bullshit.
Belief in evolution existing as a process is one thing, belief in it as being the sole progenitor of all life is another. The people who don't understand it are the people who think bacterial resistance to antibiotics and galapagos finches are the same thing as the billion-year process by which single-cell organisms become multi-trillion cell organisms with complex organ systems. How many times have you seen people make smart-ass remarks about those evil evolution deniers every time some story about a superbug comes out? That's a lot like saying that one cold week in one region of one continent means the world isn't warming. Actually, it's a lot worse.

Your yeast example from earlier isn't very good because there's no real extensive specialization among the cells, the cells don't form their own unique morphologies (e.g. neurons and liver cells in animals having different shapes and properties and such) or epigenetics, and they don't form an independent organism capable of reproduction.

My basic contention with science here is that there are truths that are unknowable. Should we be able to replicate the process of abiogenesis in a lab with all of our knowledge of chemistry and thermodynamics? Should we have computers that can be public defenders or write novels now with the hardware we have now? No one wants to even entertain the idea our assumption of physicalism as it relates to cognition is flawed because that opens a trap door to eeeeeeeeeeevil metaphysical and supernatural stuff. What it all boils down to is that physicalism/materialism is a sacred cow in science and that goes against the principle of free-thought. :nod:
Well said.
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Re: Evolution problems

Post by SeattleGriz »

Seems the Evolutionary world is being called out, but they don't have a response.

Biobengal?

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/08/la ... 88811.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Right after his calculation Moran writes "We know that the right pair of mutations ... is not sufficient to confer resistance to chloroquine so the actual frequency of chloroquine resistance is far less." Far less? Far less than 1 in 1018? Now, it's true that at least four mutations have been found in all known resistant strains of malaria. And it's true that, although Summers et al. showed two mutations are necessary for pumping chloroquine at a low level, they might not be sufficient for chloroquine resistance in the wild. Nonetheless, a need for further mutations would only make the problem for Darwinism much worse. It wouldn't make it better. Let me emphasize: Professor Moran's own reasoning would make the problem much more severe than I myself have ever argued. Yet he doesn't take any time on his blog to explore the ramifications of his own reckoning. Why doesn't he think that's an interesting result? Why not ponder it a bit?
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Re: Evolution problems

Post by Skjellyfetti »

"The unmasking thing was all created by Devin Nunes"
- Richard Burr, (R-NC)
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Re: Evolution problems

Post by SeattleGriz »

Skjellyfetti wrote:[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpNoQaB2LT0[/youtube]
Boo! Bad response, but as usual, thanks for playing along. :thumb:
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Re: Evolution problems

Post by CID1990 »

What the ID side needs is their own Infowars. Like a one stop shop for all the Spandoses of the bible like SG. Keeps things organized.
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Re: Evolution problems

Post by mainejeff »

The biggest problem that I have with evolution is that it has been so sporadic and inconsistent. :|

:coffee:
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Re: Evolution problems

Post by Chizzang »

Chizzang wrote:
Pwns wrote:
Belief in evolution existing as a process is one thing, belief in it as being the sole progenitor of all life is another. The people who don't understand it are the people who think bacterial resistance to antibiotics and galapagos finches are the same thing as the billion-year process by which single-cell organisms become multi-trillion cell organisms with complex organ systems. How many times have you seen people make smart-ass remarks about those evil evolution deniers every time some story about a superbug comes out? That's a lot like saying that one cold week in one region of one continent means the world isn't warming. Actually, it's a lot worse.

Your yeast example from earlier isn't very good because there's no real extensive specialization among the cells, the cells don't form their own unique morphologies (e.g. neurons and liver cells in animals having different shapes and properties and such) or epigenetics, and they don't form an independent organism capable of reproduction.

My basic contention with science here is that there are truths that are unknowable. Should we be able to replicate the process of abiogenesis in a lab with all of our knowledge of chemistry and thermodynamics? Should we have computers that can be public defenders or write novels now with the hardware we have now? No one wants to even entertain the idea our assumption of physicalism as it relates to cognition is flawed because that opens a trap door to eeeeeeeeeeevil metaphysical and supernatural stuff. What it all boils down to is that physicalism/materialism is a sacred cow in science and that goes against the principle of free-thought. :nod:

Right ^
So you would agree that the likelihood of the Biblical God of Moses and Jesus
The one who routinely intervenes in the lives of humans and performed regular miracles is actually mostly a complete and obvious misinterpretation of the data they had at time (combined with obvious lies)

So what we are left with is a completely different understanding of the way GOD MIGHT WORK
which would require a completely different (and honest) reworking of the God Mantra

Right..? That is what you're saying...

:nod:

Why are none of the smart Christian guys answering my question up there^ ..?
Pwns presented a logical information flow, a way of looking at Evolution from his perspective
which lead directly to my response question - which applies his concept to Christianity

and I get crickets back...

:coffee:
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Re: Evolution problems

Post by SeattleGriz »

Chizzang wrote:
Chizzang wrote:

Right ^
So you would agree that the likelihood of the Biblical God of Moses and Jesus
The one who routinely intervenes in the lives of humans and performed regular miracles is actually mostly a complete and obvious misinterpretation of the data they had at time (combined with obvious lies)

So what we are left with is a completely different understanding of the way GOD MIGHT WORK
which would require a completely different (and honest) reworking of the God Mantra

Right..? That is what you're saying...

:nod:

Why are none of the smart Christian guys answering my question up there^ ..?
Pwns presented a logical information flow, a way of looking at Evolution from his perspective
which lead directly to my response question - which applies his concept to Christianity

and I get crickets back...

:coffee:
Did you actually answer a question in this thread, or make another statement you wanted to make?

This thread is about the problems with evolution and not a one smart "non Christian" guy has bothered with any answers to my questions. What makes you so special?

Besides, I said it before, you are confusing history and theology.
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Re: Evolution problems

Post by Chizzang »

SeattleGriz wrote:
Chizzang wrote:

Why are none of the smart Christian guys answering my question up there^ ..?
Pwns presented a logical information flow, a way of looking at Evolution from his perspective
which lead directly to my response question - which applies his concept to Christianity

and I get crickets back...

:coffee:
Did you actually answer a question in this thread, or make another statement you wanted to make?

This thread is about the problems with evolution and not a one smart "non Christian" guy has bothered with any answers to my questions. What makes you so special?

Besides, I said it before, you are confusing history and theology.
Ah I see...
Thanks for answering my question :notworthy: Maybe Pwns can take a legit stab at it
(And I'm pretty sure this thread has a little to do with misinterpreting data, on both sides... (Right?))
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Re: Evolution problems

Post by SeattleGriz »

Chizzang wrote:
SeattleGriz wrote:
Did you actually answer a question in this thread, or make another statement you wanted to make?

This thread is about the problems with evolution and not a one smart "non Christian" guy has bothered with any answers to my questions. What makes you so special?

Besides, I said it before, you are confusing history and theology.
Ah I see...
Thanks for answering my question :notworthy: Maybe Pwns can take a legit stab at it
(And I'm pretty sure this thread has a little to do with misinterpreting data, on both sides... (Right?))
Thanks dude. Way to kill a great thread with your hijacking. Drove everyone away. :ohno:
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Re: Evolution problems

Post by CID1990 »

I am still happy to drop in and accuse you of shamanism.
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Re: Evolution problems

Post by dbackjon »

SeattleGriz wrote:
Chizzang wrote:
Ah I see...
Thanks for answering my question :notworthy: Maybe Pwns can take a legit stab at it
(And I'm pretty sure this thread has a little to do with misinterpreting data, on both sides... (Right?))
Thanks dude. Way to kill a great thread with your hijacking. Drove everyone away. :ohno:


Do you expect anything less from Cleezang?
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Re: Evolution problems

Post by JoltinJoe »

Chizzang wrote:
Chizzang wrote:

Right ^
So you would agree that the likelihood of the Biblical God of Moses and Jesus
The one who routinely intervenes in the lives of humans and performed regular miracles is actually mostly a complete and obvious misinterpretation of the data they had at time (combined with obvious lies)

So what we are left with is a completely different understanding of the way GOD MIGHT WORK
which would require a completely different (and honest) reworking of the God Mantra

Right..? That is what you're saying...

:nod:

Why are none of the smart Christian guys answering my question up there^ ..?
Pwns presented a logical information flow, a way of looking at Evolution from his perspective
which lead directly to my response question - which applies his concept to Christianity

and I get crickets back...

:coffee:
What was the question? I dropped off this conversation when I went away and a lot has been said since then,
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Re: Evolution problems

Post by D1B »

JoltinJoe wrote:
Chizzang wrote:

Why are none of the smart Christian guys answering my question up there^ ..?
Pwns presented a logical information flow, a way of looking at Evolution from his perspective
which lead directly to my response question - which applies his concept to Christianity

and I get crickets back...

:coffee:
What was the question? I dropped off this conversation when I went away and a lot has been said since then,

This ought to be good.
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Re: Evolution problems

Post by SeattleGriz »

More, "I just can't get this E Coli to evolve".

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/ ... 6111.short" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What you can't read if you don't have access:
Despite the centrality of adaptation to evolution, surprisingly little is known about the diversity of mutations that contribute to adaptation or about their phenotypic and fitness effects (1). There are, in fact, only a few well-known examples linking genotype, phenotype, and adaptation in nature (2-4). (Emphasis added.)
Thought this shit was ironed out? How exactly only a few examples, and those are weak at best?

:ohno:
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Re: Evolution problems

Post by CID1990 »

SeattleGriz wrote:More, "I just can't get this E Coli to evolve".

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/ ... 6111.short" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What you can't read if you don't have access:
Despite the centrality of adaptation to evolution, surprisingly little is known about the diversity of mutations that contribute to adaptation or about their phenotypic and fitness effects (1). There are, in fact, only a few well-known examples linking genotype, phenotype, and adaptation in nature (2-4). (Emphasis added.)
Thought this **** was ironed out? How exactly only a few examples, and those are weak at best?

:ohno:
Therefore it must be the magical hermit in the sky, amirite?
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Re: Evolution problems

Post by SeattleGriz »

CID1990 wrote:
SeattleGriz wrote:More, "I just can't get this E Coli to evolve".

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/ ... 6111.short" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What you can't read if you don't have access:



Thought this **** was ironed out? How exactly only a few examples, and those are weak at best?

:ohno:
Therefore it must be the magical hermit in the sky, amirite?
Okay! Yes. You have worn me down!

Actually, it is more of the same. The inability to produce macro evolutionary results and an admission of very little examples.
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