Catholics aint fucking around....

[JoltinJoe]

Not really a scientist, and he wasn't executed for any of his "scientific" musings, but he's the one name that, in desperation, gets thrown out when this claim of "executing scientists" is made.

If you want to say Bruno was a scientist, go ahead. He didn't engage in any scientific study, hypothesis, or use of the scientic method. But whatever.

name another.

He was a scientist, he published scientific works, he dealt with scientific theory and was burned because he wouldn't compromise his theories.

You are wrong on all accounts. Read up on Bruno.

[Cap'n Cat]

Not really a scientist, and he wasn't executed for any of his "scientific" musings, but he's the one name that, in desperation, gets thrown out when this claim of "executing scientists" is made.

If you want to say Bruno was a scientist, go ahead. He didn't engage in any scientific study, hypothesis, or use of the scientic method. But whatever.

name another.

He was a scientist, he published scientific works, he dealt with scientific theory and was burned because he wouldn't compromise his theories.

Rationalize, twist, disregard, deflect.....FAIL.

[JoltinJoe]

Translation: "I got nothin' for that, Cap'n."

You had nothing. I ask you to cite one scientist executed by the church. Your response is that there were many. Name one. That's all. One.

[D1B]

Joe, do you think any men of science or letters were ever killed or tortured by your church?

Science, no. And that's a historical fact.

Letters? Don't know what you mean by that.

Joe, it might be a catholic fact and seeing they had control over the western world for 1800 years, makes sense as they're masters at controlling what is percieved as fact. The commercial is a perfect example.

Men of letters to me are writers, philosophers, theologians, scientists like Bruno, some artists...

[D1B]

Translation: "I got nothin' for that, Cap'n."

You had nothing. I ask you to cite one scientist executed by the church. Your response is that there were many. Name one. That's all. One.

Strawman alert. Joe you aint in court, we've already addressed your strawman and have moved on to a more advanced and mature argument regarding the catholic church's brutal war on science for hundreds of years.

[JoltinJoe]

Science, no. And that's a historical fact.

Letters? Don't know what you mean by that.

Joe, it might be a catholic fact and seeing they had control over the western world for 1800 years, makes sense as they're masters at controlling what is percieved as fact. The commercial is a perfect example.

Men of letters to me are writers, philosophers, theologians, scientists like Bruno, some artists...

The extent to which this happened is greatly exaggerated by you, but it did happen (no "artists", though).

Now Bruno, in our lasy go-round on this subject, did you not eventually agree that Bruno was not a scientist?

[JoltinJoe]

You had nothing. I ask you to cite one scientist executed by the church. Your response is that there were many. Name one. That's all. One.

Strawman alert. Joe you aint in court, we've already addressed your strawman and have moved on to a more advanced and mature argument regarding the catholic church's brutal war on science for hundreds of years.

A brutal war without a single victim?

[D1B]

Translation: "I got nothin' for that, Cap'n."

You had nothing. I ask you to cite one scientist executed by the church. Your response is that there were many. Name one. That's all. One.

He named millions Joe. Here it is:

What about all the minor scientists, etc, who were trying to do good work in smoky, dark laboratories under the onerous, domineering Church? How about all the contemporaries and assistants to these folks and the major actors who were bullied and threatened into obscurity?

Let me know if you need more help.

[D1B]

Strawman alert. Joe you aint in court, we've already addressed your strawman and have moved on to a more advanced and mature argument regarding the catholic church's brutal war on science for hundreds of years.

A brutal war without a single victim?

Here's millions:

What about all the minor scientists, etc, who were trying to do good work in smoky, dark laboratories under the onerous, domineering Church? How about all the contemporaries and assistants to these folks and the major actors who were bullied and threatened into obscurity?

[JoltinJoe]

A brutal war without a single victim?

Here's millions:

What about all the minor scientists, etc, who were trying to do good work in smoky, dark laboratories under the onerous, domineering Church? How about all the contemporaries and assistants to these folks and the major actors who were bullied and threatened into obscurity?

Other than to Cap 'n Cat, is there a legitimate historical citation for this claim?

How about a one single, solitary name?

[D1B]

Here's millions:

Other than to Cap 'n Cat, is there a legitimate historical citation for this claim?

How about a one single, solitary name?

Joe, start another thread if you want. I already addressed this absurdity in an earlier post. Again our argument has evolved and you still fail to address it.

Millions of heretics (scientists, children, women, artists) were killed by the church. This is a historical fact.

[JMU DJ]

He was a scientist, he published scientific works, he dealt with scientific theory and was burned because he wouldn't compromise his theories.

You are wrong on all accounts. Read up on Bruno.

So he didn't work with cosmology? He didn't theorize that there about the movement of celestial bodies? He wasn't burned for his cosmic pluralism beliefs? Have you read about Bruno or is this something you've heard? You do realize scientist and philosophers were the same thing back then?

Sounds like a scientific theory to me:

"This entire globe, this star, not being subject to death, and dissolution and annihilation being impossible anywhere in Nature, from time to time renews itself by changing and altering all its parts. There is no absolute up or down, as Aristotle taught; no absolute position in space; but the position of a body is relative to that of other bodies. Everywhere there is incessant relative change in position throughout the universe, and the observer is always at the center of things."

Giordano Bruno "De la causa, principio, et Uno "

[D1B]

You are wrong on all accounts. Read up on Bruno.

So he didn't work with cosmology? He didn't theorize that there about the movement of celestial bodies? He wasn't burned for his cosmic pluralism beliefs? Have you read about Bruno or is this something you've heard? You do realize scientist and philosophers were the same thing back then?

Sounds like a scientific theory to me:

"This entire globe, this star, not being subject to death, and dissolution and annihilation being impossible anywhere in Nature, from time to time renews itself by changing and altering all its parts. There is no absolute up or down, as Aristotle taught; no absolute position in space; but the position of a body is relative to that of other bodies. Everywhere there is incessant relative change in position throughout the universe, and the observer is always at the center of things."

Giordano Bruno "De la causa, principio, et Uno "

Bruno is a draw. Joe's strategy is essentially tied to an unreasonable surrepticious demand for specificity - you cannot by specific name, name one scientist killed by the catholic church. Like in court, in front of idiots who can't event figure out a way to get out of jury duty, this flies.

So, we counter with:

The catholic church brutally killed millions of people they deemed as heretics. Heretics are anyone the all mighty church feels are a threat to its authority like scientists (galeleio), writers, philosophers (Voltaire), artists, or anyone really. They harrassed, tortured or threatened millions and millions more than they killed.

This being a historical fact, we say that at least some of those now billions of people harrassed, tortured or killed by the church were in fact scientists, inventors, philosophers, psychologists, cosmologists, writers etc...

Joe knows this extension is sound logic, but as chief cs.com catholic ugly truth sanitizer, he cannot and will not recognize it. God forbid he lose the respect and admiration of Tman67!

Anyway, the period that is commonly recognized as the absolute pinnacle of church power is ironically called the Dark Ages - a perioud of 500 or so years almost completely devoid of scientific and literary advancement. Yet the church never killed, tortured, or threatened any scientist during that period.



*Joe, let it go.

[D1B]

Joe, do you think any men of science or letters were ever killed or tortured by your church?

Science, no. And that's a historical fact.

Letters? Don't know what you mean by that. People were tortured and executed by the Spanish Inquisition, true.

You and Cap greatly exaggerate the extent to which the church executed those deemed guilty of heresy. It happened, and that's not a proud fact, but your statements about the extent to which it happened are outright hyperbole.

Ok, now we're getting somewhere....

[JMU DJ]

Bruno is a draw. Joe's strategy is essentially tied to an unreasonable surrepticious demand for specificity - you cannot by specific name, name one scientist killed by the catholic church. Like in court, in front of idiots who can't event figure out a way to get out of jury duty, this flies.

So, we counter with:

The catholic church brutally killed millions of people they deemed as heretics. Heretics are anyone the all mighty church feels are a threat to its authority like scientists (galeleio), writers, philosophers (Voltaire), artists, or anyone really. They harrassed, tortured or threatened millions and millions more than they killed.

This being a historical fact, we say that at least some of those now billions of people harrassed, tortured or killed by the church were in fact scientists, inventors, philosophers, psychologists, cosmologists, writers etc...

Joe knows this extension is sound logic, but as chief cs.com catholic ugly truth sanitizer, he cannot and will not recognize it. God forbid he lose the respect and admiration of Tman67!

Anyway, the period that is commonly recognized as the absolute pinnacle of church power is ironically called the Dark Ages - a perioud of 500 or so years almost completely devoid of scientific and literary advancement. Yet the church never killed, tortured, or threatened any scientist during that period.



*Joe, let it go.

Agree D, he's not a "scientist" in the modern sense... but then you could also throw out a ton of other "scientist" from that period who were merely "philosophers," whose theories were later proved scientifically.


But yeah, if not the inquisitions... the church definitely hindered the progression of science, and you can provide a litany of scientist on this accord. This was my original problem with the advert, the presumptuous claim to have developed the scientific method is absolutely ludicrous when you consider that the church imprisoned the man who is considered to be one of the earliest proponents of the scientific method.

[JoltinJoe]

So he didn't work with cosmology? He didn't theorize that there about the movement of celestial bodies? He wasn't burned for his cosmic pluralism beliefs? Have you read about Bruno or is this something you've heard? You do realize scientist and philosophers were the same thing back then?

Sounds like a scientific theory to me:

Bruno is a draw. Joe's strategy is essentially tied to an unreasonable surrepticious demand for specificity - you cannot by specific name, name one scientist killed by the catholic church. Like in court, in front of idiots who can't event figure out a way to get out of jury duty, this flies.

So, we counter with:

The catholic church brutally killed millions of people they deemed as heretics. Heretics are anyone the all mighty church feels are a threat to its authority like scientists (galeleio), writers, philosophers (Voltaire), artists, or anyone really. They harrassed, tortured or threatened millions and millions more than they killed.

This being a historical fact, we say that at least some of those now billions of people harrassed, tortured or killed by the church were in fact scientists, inventors, philosophers, psychologists, cosmologists, writers etc...

Joe knows this extension is sound logic, but as chief cs.com catholic ugly truth sanitizer, he cannot and will not recognize it. God forbid he lose the respect and admiration of Tman67!

Anyway, the period that is commonly recognized as the absolute pinnacle of church power is ironically called the Dark Ages - a perioud of 500 or so years almost completely devoid of scientific and literary advancement. Yet the church never killed, tortured, or threatened any scientist during that period.



*Joe, let it go.

Looking for one verifiable fact in this post ...

Do we have a name yet?

Killed millions of heretics??

[JoltinJoe]

You are wrong on all accounts. Read up on Bruno.

So he didn't work with cosmology? He didn't theorize that there about the movement of celestial bodies? He wasn't burned for his cosmic pluralism beliefs? Have you read about Bruno or is this something you've heard? You do realize scientist and philosophers were the same thing back then?

Sounds like a scientific theory to me:

"This entire globe, this star, not being subject to death, and dissolution and annihilation being impossible anywhere in Nature, from time to time renews itself by changing and altering all its parts. There is no absolute up or down, as Aristotle taught; no absolute position in space; but the position of a body is relative to that of other bodies. Everywhere there is incessant relative change in position throughout the universe, and the observer is always at the center of things."

Giordano Bruno "De la causa, principio, et Uno "

Bruno read and admired Copernicus; not that he really grasped it in its entirety.

He was no more a scientist that you, for having read Darwin and believed in evolution.

[D1B]

That too bad Joe.

Rapidly losing respect for you.

[D1B]

Bruno is a draw. Joe's strategy is essentially tied to an unreasonable surrepticious demand for specificity - you cannot by specific name, name one scientist killed by the catholic church. Like in court, in front of idiots who can't event figure out a way to get out of jury duty, this flies.

So, we counter with:

The catholic church brutally killed millions of people they deemed as heretics. Heretics are anyone the all mighty church feels are a threat to its authority like scientists (galeleio), writers, philosophers (Voltaire), artists, or anyone really. They harrassed, tortured or threatened millions and millions more than they killed.

This being a historical fact, we say that at least some of those now billions of people harrassed, tortured or killed by the church were in fact scientists, inventors, philosophers, psychologists, cosmologists, writers etc...

Joe knows this extension is sound logic, but as chief cs.com catholic ugly truth sanitizer, he cannot and will not recognize it. God forbid he lose the respect and admiration of Tman67!

Anyway, the period that is commonly recognized as the absolute pinnacle of church power is ironically called the Dark Ages - a perioud of 500 or so years almost completely devoid of scientific and literary advancement. Yet the church never killed, tortured, or threatened any scientist during that period.



*Joe, let it go.

Agree D, he's not a "scientist" in the modern sense... but then you could also throw out a ton of other "scientist" from that period who were merely "philosophers," whose theories were later proved scientifically.


But yeah, if not the inquisitions... the church definitely hindered the progression of science, and you can provide a litany of scientist on this accord. This was my original problem with the advert, the presumptuous claim to have developed the scientific method is absolutely ludicrous when you consider that the church imprisoned the man who is considered to be one of the earliest proponents of the scientific method.

Yeah, it's an full of absurdities and half truths. We have only begun to scratch the surface. I'm anticipating and interesting response from the scientific, historical, and other christian/religious communities on this utter arrogance and deception.

[JMU DJ]

2. Michael Servetus
3. Tommaso Campanella
4. Eufame Macalyane

[JMU DJ]

Bruno read and admired Copernicus; not that he really grasped it in its entirety.

He was no more a scientist that you, for having read Darwin and believed in evolution.

I am a scientist... and I don't believe in evolution, it's a fact. Prove me wrong

[Chizzang]

I don't know about all the other arguments going on inside this thread
but this chart is SPOT ON...

[catamount man]

joltin joe, don't feel bad brother. It's Christmas. As a Presbyterian, they would find something bad to say about John Calvin as well if given the time. I feel your pain. MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!

SINCERELY,

CATAMOUNT MAN, THE PRESBYTERIAN DEMOCRAT. JESUS IS THE REASON FOR THE SEASON!

[kalm]

I wonder if the Conquistador's, acting in the name of christianity, killed any Mayan or Incan scientists?

Of course it would be difficult to determine as according to Wiki, the Spaniards and the church destroyed Mayan texts and along with them the knowledge of their writing system.

[Chizzang]

The argument for me has always been:

1) Was the truth ever concealed or suppressed by the church
2) Is the search for truth the churches ultimate goal - regardless of findings
3) Is their a history of abuse of power



Nuff siad... Next