Student Loan Forgivness

[Franks Tanks]

Some "smart" lawyers figured out that they could rack up student loans and file bankruptcy right after graduation and voila - all student loans and credit card debt was dissolved and their credit was ruined for 3 years.

Most didn't have any credit worth saving anyway (students their whole lives).

Anyway, the Bankruptcy laws have since changed in addition to not allowing student debt forgiveness.

Joltin Joe could shed more light on that if need be.

Damn, I just went to a private law school and then quit...so, I got the loan for one year ($30k) and have no degree to show for it.

Now, I'm getting my MBA (much cheaper). Left ASU with only $10k in student loan debt...I made a bad choice of going to law school, but I don't feel someone else should pay for it. My wife's a teacher though, so in 6 more years, (so I hear, we need to look into it) her loans can be wiped clean.

I was mildy interested in law school, but I was deathly afraid of what happened to you. I would go -- find out I hated it (probably would) and get stuck with a bill.

Of cousre many young lawyers are saddled with incredible debt. Not every attorney makes a lot of money so paying back those 150k law schools loans can be a killer.

[danefan]

Damn, I just went to a private law school and then quit...so, I got the loan for one year ($30k) and have no degree to show for it.

Now, I'm getting my MBA (much cheaper). Left ASU with only $10k in student loan debt...I made a bad choice of going to law school, but I don't feel someone else should pay for it. My wife's a teacher though, so in 6 more years, (so I hear, we need to look into it) her loans can be wiped clean.

I was mildy interested in law school, but I was deathly afraid of what happened to you. I would go -- find out I hated it (probably would) and get stuck with a bill.

Of cousre many young lawyers are saddled with incredible debt. Not every attorney makes a lot of money so paying back those 150k law schools loans can be a killer.

That is exactly why the ABA needs to step in and regulate what law schools are telling prospective students. There are so many people going to law school under the impression they'll get a big-law job when they graduate and make $150,000+ right out of law school. Schools are spinning their placement rates and locations so well that people are getting suckered and stuck with 6 figure loan amounts while making the same salary as high school teachers.

[ASUMountaineer]

Gee, my wife's a teacher but since she graduated earlier ('95) she's already paid off all of her debt, and heck, she went the expensive route and went to villanova.

I also don't get it with people paying for things like MBA's all by themselves. I got my MBA a few years after graduating college (chem eng major) and my employer at the time paid for 100% of it - I still had to front the money and got reimbursed based on my grades, but I didn't end up paying for anything other than parking. Certainly was a great way to do it!

Well, that is the route I'm going as well. I have applied for reimbursement from my employer.

[ASUMountaineer]

Damn, I just went to a private law school and then quit...so, I got the loan for one year ($30k) and have no degree to show for it.

Now, I'm getting my MBA (much cheaper). Left ASU with only $10k in student loan debt...I made a bad choice of going to law school, but I don't feel someone else should pay for it. My wife's a teacher though, so in 6 more years, (so I hear, we need to look into it) her loans can be wiped clean.

I was mildy interested in law school, but I was deathly afraid of what happened to you. I would go -- find out I hated it (probably would) and get stuck with a bill.

Of cousre many young lawyers are saddled with incredible debt. Not every attorney makes a lot of money so paying back those 150k law schools loans can be a killer.

Yeah, I'm not surprised I hated it, and I'm glad I found out after only one year and cut my losses. I'm also glad I went...I'd hate to be 35 and think, "I wonder how I would have done at law school." To quote John Fox (Carolina Panthers' coach) "it is what it is."

[mebison]

I was mildy interested in law school, but I was deathly afraid of what happened to you. I would go -- find out I hated it (probably would) and get stuck with a bill.

Of cousre many young lawyers are saddled with incredible debt. Not every attorney makes a lot of money so paying back those 150k law schools loans can be a killer.

That is exactly why the ABA needs to step in and regulate what law schools are telling prospective students. There are so many people going to law school under the impression they'll get a big-law job when they graduate and make $150,000+ right out of law school. Schools are spinning their placement rates and locations so well that people are getting suckered and stuck with 6 figure loan amounts while making the same salary as high school teachers.

What are the poor-paying lawyer gigs? Public defenders, non-profit/legistlative jobs, or what? Just curious. My sister-in-law starts law school this fall and, knowing her, will find herself liking the lowest-paying jobs.

[Franks Tanks]

I was mildy interested in law school, but I was deathly afraid of what happened to you. I would go -- find out I hated it (probably would) and get stuck with a bill.

Of cousre many young lawyers are saddled with incredible debt. Not every attorney makes a lot of money so paying back those 150k law schools loans can be a killer.

That is exactly why the ABA needs to step in and regulate what law schools are telling prospective students. There are so many people going to law school under the impression they'll get a big-law job when they graduate and make $150,000+ right out of law school. Schools are spinning their placement rates and locations so well that people are getting suckered and stuck with 6 figure loan amounts while making the same salary as high school teachers.

Yup--a very large amount of people I went college with are attorneys. Lots of Rutgers, Seton Hall, Syracuse, Penn State type places and some top schools. I would have been in a position to get into a law school like Penn State or Rutgers, but not a top tier. I didnt think my return was worth the potential risk of a 50k a year job and a 150k loan when it really wasnt what I wanted to do. Unfortunantly too many get caught up in the big money farce.

[danefan]

That is exactly why the ABA needs to step in and regulate what law schools are telling prospective students. There are so many people going to law school under the impression they'll get a big-law job when they graduate and make $150,000+ right out of law school. Schools are spinning their placement rates and locations so well that people are getting suckered and stuck with 6 figure loan amounts while making the same salary as high school teachers.

What are the poor-paying lawyer gigs? Public defenders, non-profit/legistlative jobs, or what? Just curious. My sister-in-law starts law school this fall and, knowing her, will find herself liking the lowest-paying jobs.

Just about every starting job out of law school is poor paying.

I would be comfortable saying that the only good paying jobs out of law schoool are the big corporate firm jobs (e.g. firms with more than 500 attorneys in major cities).

There are good legal jobs elsewhere, but they are generally low paying until you get some kind of profit share.

[Ibanez]

What are the poor-paying lawyer gigs? Public defenders, non-profit/legistlative jobs, or what? Just curious. My sister-in-law starts law school this fall and, knowing her, will find herself liking the lowest-paying jobs.

Just about every starting job out of law school is poor paying.

I would be comfortable saying that the only good paying jobs out of law schoool are the big corporate firm jobs (e.g. firms with more than 500 attorneys in major cities).

There are good legal jobs elsewhere, but they are generally low paying until you get some kind of profit share.

I considered law school but only if i was committed to going for corporate law.

[SuperHornet]

I'm not sure exactly where I stand on this, either. Personally, my student debt is a just debt, and I want to pay it off. I don't mind extended forbearance and lower interest rates if I'm having trouble (like being unemployed or underemployed like I have been for most of the last three years). But that's not a POV that I feel comfortable forcing on everyone....

I will say this, though. The Book of Proverbs has something very to the point to say about debt:

The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.
Proverbs 27:7 (NIV)

While there are certain things that are so expensive that loans are a decent option (school, house, vehicle), one should be VERY careful about using credit in other ways. I wish I'd learned my lesson the FIRST time. I can't wait to declare myself debt free, though that is a long time coming.

[Franks Tanks]

That is exactly why the ABA needs to step in and regulate what law schools are telling prospective students. There are so many people going to law school under the impression they'll get a big-law job when they graduate and make $150,000+ right out of law school. Schools are spinning their placement rates and locations so well that people are getting suckered and stuck with 6 figure loan amounts while making the same salary as high school teachers.

What are the poor-paying lawyer gigs? Public defenders, non-profit/legistlative jobs, or what? Just curious. My sister-in-law starts law school this fall and, knowing her, will find herself liking the lowest-paying jobs.

In my experience even many private sector law firms pay poorly. The ones you mention above certainly qualify, but even working at a medium size firm in a small city wont necessarly get you a big salary.

Some guy graduating from Penn State and going to work at a no name law frim in Harrisburg or Scranton can expect like 50-60k acording to my understanding.

The big dollar jobs are at the best firms in big cities and they do most of their recruiting from top schools. If you are a top student at a top school you just hit the freakin lottery, but that is for a few of the best.

[Franks Tanks]

I'm not sure exactly where I stand on this, either. Personally, my student debt is a just debt, and I want to pay it off. I don't mind extended forbearance and lower interest rates if I'm having trouble (like being unemployed or underemployed like I have been for most of the last three years). But that's not a POV that I feel comfortable forcing on everyone....

I will say this, though. The Book of Proverbs has something very to the point to say about debt:

The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.
Proverbs 27:7 (NIV)

While there are certain things that are so expensive that loans are a decent option (school, house, vehicle), one should be VERY careful about using credit in other ways. I wish I'd learned my lesson the FIRST time. I can't wait to declare myself debt free, though that is a long time coming.

I thought Jesus was all about the poor?

[SuperHornet]

Yes, FT, Jesus does have that attitude, and there are way too many who claim His Name that don't live up to that. I'm just not sure that loans are the way to go because in the long run, especially if the economy goes south, a poor person can be WORSE off for the loan than s/he was before. Of course, if one gets the chance and fulfills the obligation, that's all to the good. It's hard to know beforehand who to take a chance on. But I'll tell you this. I've had people tell me no more than once, and I'm better off for it.

[danefan]

What are the poor-paying lawyer gigs? Public defenders, non-profit/legistlative jobs, or what? Just curious. My sister-in-law starts law school this fall and, knowing her, will find herself liking the lowest-paying jobs.

In my experience even many private sector law firms pay poorly. The ones you mention above certainly qualify, but even working at a medium size firm in a small city wont necessarly get you a big salary.

Some guy graduating from Penn State and going to work at a no name law frim in Harrisburg or Scranton can expect like 50-60k acording to my understanding.

The big dollar jobs are at the best firms in big cities and they do most of their recruiting from top schools. If you are a top student at a top school you just hit the freakin lottery, but that is for a few of the best.

You're understanding is spot on. And its even more exagerated with the legal market today. There are so few "Big Law" jobs available today. Firms are actually paying law students holding post-grad employment offers to go away.

With the exception of bankruptcy, tax and some litigation, there just isn't enough work to go around.

[Ibanez]

In my experience even many private sector law firms pay poorly. The ones you mention above certainly qualify, but even working at a medium size firm in a small city wont necessarly get you a big salary.

Some guy graduating from Penn State and going to work at a no name law frim in Harrisburg or Scranton can expect like 50-60k acording to my understanding.

The big dollar jobs are at the best firms in big cities and they do most of their recruiting from top schools. If you are a top student at a top school you just hit the freakin lottery, but that is for a few of the best.

Firms are actually paying law students holding post-grad employment offers to go away.

what?

[danefan]

Firms are actually paying law students holding post-grad employment offers to go away.

what?

Major law firms recruit well advance of the actual starting dates. Usually you get an offer 1 year in advance and staffing is complete based on anticipated needs.

Well, the workload fell off so rapidly and without any real warning, so firms were stuck with starting dates for tons of new law school grads whom they didn't have work for.

So instead of paying them their starting salaries (which is $160,000 in NYC and other major markets) they paid them $60,000-$80,000 to not work. Essentially they paid them a monthly stipend and gave them health insurance for 1 year and tried to find them other jobs.

[Ibanez]

what?

Major law firms recruit well advance of the actual starting dates. Usually you get an offer 1 year in advance and staffing is complete based on anticipated needs.

Well, the workload fell off so rapidly and without any real warning, so firms were stuck with starting dates for tons of new law school grads whom they didn't have work for.

So instead of paying them their starting salaries (which is $160,000 in NYC and other major markets) they paid them $60,000-$80,000 to not work. Essentially they paid them a monthly stipend and gave them health insurance for 1 year and tried to find them other jobs.

$160k starting out? Holy fuck!

[danefan]

Major law firms recruit well advance of the actual starting dates. Usually you get an offer 1 year in advance and staffing is complete based on anticipated needs.

Well, the workload fell off so rapidly and without any real warning, so firms were stuck with starting dates for tons of new law school grads whom they didn't have work for.

So instead of paying them their starting salaries (which is $160,000 in NYC and other major markets) they paid them $60,000-$80,000 to not work. Essentially they paid them a monthly stipend and gave them health insurance for 1 year and tried to find them other jobs.

$160k starting out? Holy fuck!

Yes its a tremendous amount of money - but the $160k jobs are few and far between, especially when you look at how many law students there are and how many want those jobs.

[Ibanez]

$160k starting out? Holy fuck!

Yes its a tremendous amount of money - but the $160k jobs are few and far between, especially when you look at how many law students there are and how many want those jobs.

I understand you have to p ut in your time. My wife is trying to break back into the fashion world. She used to be part of that whole NYC Fashion scene and getting back in isn't as easy as it was to get in the first time. We figure she'd be at $50-$75 for a few years but once you get past the 5 year point, you can start bringing $100k+ and write your own ticket. Once you pay your dues of course.

[BigSkyBears]

So what if my wife graduated in '07 and we're still paying the loans back? Will we still need to pay them back or be eligible the loan forgiveness?

[dbackjon]

A group of law students from Stanford figured out that angle - all declared bankruptcy at once. Shortly there after, the bankruptcy law was changed.

Lawyers, ruining it for the rest of us...

[Grizo406]

Since forgiveness is being given, how about some from the IRS???

[Pwns]

Here's my solution for this: the government needs to allow students to commit hours to public service during school and in exchange pay up to a certain amount of tuition. The government already has loan forgiveness programs where you can work in organizations like Americorps or the Peace Corps in exchange for loan forgiveness, but you can only get into the programs after you graduate. Might as well have people do those kind of things while they are in school as it is easier to get the extra work done the than when they have a full-time job. It beats the heck out of mandatory community service for high school students, too.

That, and colleges seriously need to cut costs. Too many schools are trying to attract students who want college life to be bread, circuses, and orgies. They're the very same ones who will major in psychology or multi-cultural rainforest social-justice studies, do a poor job of building up a resume during their school days, and complain that they can't get a job that will allow them to pay off their debts.

[Ibanez]

Here's my solution for this: the government needs to allow students to commit hours to public service during school and in exchange pay up to a certain amount of tuition. The government already has loan forgiveness programs where you can work in organizations like Americorps or the Peace Corps in exchange for loan forgiveness, but you can only get into the programs after you graduate. Might as well have people do those kind of things while they are in school as it is easier to get the extra work done the than when they have a full-time job. It beats the heck out of mandatory community service for high school students, too.

That, and colleges seriously need to cut costs. Too many schools are trying to attract students who want college life to be bread, circuses, and orgies. They're the very same ones who will major in psychology or multi-cultural rainforest social-justice studies, do a poor job of building up a resume during their school days, and complain that they can't get a job that will allow them to pay off their debts.

That and you learn the same history/stats/medicine, etc... at AppState than you would at Harvard. Who is smarter, the guy that paid $40k for his Business degree or the guy that paid +$100k?

[ASUMountaineer]

Here's my solution for this: the government needs to allow students to commit hours to public service during school and in exchange pay up to a certain amount of tuition. The government already has loan forgiveness programs where you can work in organizations like Americorps or the Peace Corps in exchange for loan forgiveness, but you can only get into the programs after you graduate. Might as well have people do those kind of things while they are in school as it is easier to get the extra work done the than when they have a full-time job. It beats the heck out of mandatory community service for high school students, too.

That, and colleges seriously need to cut costs. Too many schools are trying to attract students who want college life to be bread, circuses, and orgies. They're the very same ones who will major in psychology or multi-cultural rainforest social-justice studies, do a poor job of building up a resume during their school days, and complain that they can't get a job that will allow them to pay off their debts.

That and you learn the same history/stats/medicine, etc... at AppState than you would at Harvard. Who is smarter, the guy that paid $40k for his Business degree or the guy that paid +$100k?

Well, regardless of what CatamountMan will tell you...App State is the "Harvard" of Western North Carolina.

[blueballs]

Here's my solution for this: the government needs to allow students to commit hours to public service during school and in exchange pay up to a certain amount of tuition. The government already has loan forgiveness programs where you can work in organizations like Americorps or the Peace Corps in exchange for loan forgiveness, but you can only get into the programs after you graduate. Might as well have people do those kind of things while they are in school as it is easier to get the extra work done the than when they have a full-time job. It beats the heck out of mandatory community service for high school students, too.

That, and colleges seriously need to cut costs. Too many schools are trying to attract students who want college life to be bread, circuses, and orgies. They're the very same ones who will major in psychology or multi-cultural rainforest social-justice studies, do a poor job of building up a resume during their school days, and complain that they can't get a job that will allow them to pay off their debts.

Tremendous post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!