Christian Right Responds to Glen Beck Pushing Mormonism

[Baldy]

Doesn't matter if they were Jews, Christians, Buddhist, Hindu or whatever. The founders in general (even Jefferson, who revisionists have tried to paint as a Deist) were VERY religious people.

Knowing Jefferson's history and reading his writings, I'm sure he would be disgusted to see how far out of context the court system has taken his wall of separation comments. His actions speak louder than out of context words from judicial activists 150 years after he wrote them.

Baldy, and the rest of you conk motherfuckers and religous whackjob and abortion clinic bombers, **** was 200 years ago, some of it applies now, some of it don't.

Please tell me how the principles have changed over those 200+ years. And please, don't give me that revisionist booger eating touchy feely progressive death camp bullsh!t.

[youngterrier]

....advice I don't listen to....and anyone who knows ANYTHING about history would not take Beck seriously, especially when he allies himself with David Barton, a man who MADE UP quotes from the founding fathers and has no legitimacy among Historians

I've read several of Barton's works, and the man knows our history, sorry.
The so-called "historians" who believe Barton doesn't have legitimacy are the very ones who are the revisionists. Barton has written and spoken on several occasions that many, if not, most of the founding fathers weren't what we would call "Christians" in today's terminology. He has claimed on several occasions that people like Franklin, Jefferson, Payne, Madison, etc. had real, serious, and personally doubted in the divinity of Christ.

What the revisionists have tried to claim, and have unfortunately convinced many in our society who just don't know any better is the erroneous claim that the founders were deists. Nothing could be further from the truth. While most of the founders did have severe doubts about Christ's divinity, the overwhelming majority were extremely religious people, Jefferson certainly included.

I'll admit I'm inadequate at debating this subject however, this lady I believe has successfully rebutted most of his talking points.

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I don't deny that the founders were Christian, I deny that they were theocratic as Barton would like us to believe.

It's pretty Scary

[youngterrier]

(and yes that will take a while to watch )

[Skjellyfetti]

baldy trying to claim David Barton is a serious historian is as good as it gets. i love this site.

[native]

...Howse has been a big supporter of Beck, especially as he has presented the lies of David Barton, who works with Howse's organization as well.

Then on his show on Wednesday, Beck discussed an obscure archeological find, the Bat Creek Stone...

What has Barton actually lied about, jon, skelly & YT? Just because Barton is pilloried and by the mainstream academia that recently rated Obama as one of the best US Presidents does not mean he has lied about anything.

Please be more specific than a series of long toutube videos. What specifically has Barton lied about?

And why get hysterical about the Bat Creek Stone? Sure, be sceptical of its origins and meaning, but why the irrational fear of its existence?

[youngterrier]

...Howse has been a big supporter of Beck, especially as he has presented the lies of David Barton, who works with Howse's organization as well.

Then on his show on Wednesday, Beck discussed an obscure archeological find, the Bat Creek Stone...

What has Barton actually lied about, jon, skelly & YT? Just because Barton is pilloried and by the mainstream academia that recently rated Obama as one of the best US Presidents does not mean he has lied about anything.

Please be more specific than a series of long toutube videos. What specifically has Barton lied about?

And why get hysterical about the Bat Creek Stone? Sure, be sceptical of its origins and meaning, but why the irrational fear of its existence?

http://www.publiceye.org/ifas/fw/9606/barton.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://member.tripod.com/~candst/boston1.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
for one...he admitted to MAKING UP quotes about the founding fathers, if that does not say he is a man with an agenda I don't know what is...and the youtube videos are very informative, don't dismiss them because they are long

[ToTheLeft]

Barton spoke yearly at Liberty during convocation. Talks so fast, talks so much, it all went over my head. What I took from it was that the constitution was written pretty much the same way the Code of Conduct at Liberty was, to try and legislate morality into the country. "They put these words into the constitution so that people would follow this scripture..."

It'd be really nice if one day Christians realized that we have no place in politics and we are nowhere near where we need to be. Making up a bunch of political nonsense to try and support things we think Jesus would have liked to have seen as laws is just bullcrap. Jesus was in and amongst the people, not hanging out with the higher-ups trying to get the Jews free.

Why do we feel we have to recreate 1,000,000 Ronald Reagan's and get them in every office to save this country from its sins?

[native]

...http://www.publiceye.org/ifas/fw/9606/barton.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
for one...he admitted to MAKING UP quotes about the founding fathers, if that does not say he is a man with an agenda I don't know what is...and the youtube videos are very informative, don't dismiss them because they are

Thanks for the reference, but... Error 404! Page Not Found! The PRA page you're looking for cannot be found. It may have moved, or it may no longer be available.

I do not "dismiss" the youtube videos, just wanted a more specific and succinct reference. Still waiting, but thanks for the effort.

Your overwhelming hatred of religion and Beck is baffling.

[youngterrier]

...http://www.publiceye.org/ifas/fw/9606/barton.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
for one...he admitted to MAKING UP quotes about the founding fathers, if that does not say he is a man with an agenda I don't know what is...and the youtube videos are very informative, don't dismiss them because they are

Thanks for the reference, but... Error 404! Page Not Found! The PRA page you're looking for cannot be found. It may have moved, or it may no longer be available.

I do not "dismiss" the youtube videos, just wanted a more specific and succinct reference. Still waiting, but thanks for the effort.

Your overwhelming hatred of religion and Beck is baffling.

your hatred of facts and constant ball-sucking of Beck is baffling. I don't hate anybody, I'm just allergic to Bullsh!t and douche bags

and I fixed the link...plus wtf can you say about facts? all you've done is ask questions in this thread, let alone present facts

[native]

Thanks for the reference, but... Error 404! Page Not Found! The PRA page you're looking for cannot be found. It may have moved, or it may no longer be available.

I do not "dismiss" the youtube videos, just wanted a more specific and succinct reference. Still waiting, but thanks for the effort.

Your overwhelming hatred of religion and Beck is baffling.

your hatred of facts and constant ball-sucking of Beck is baffling. I don't hate anybody, I'm just allergic to Bullsh!t and douche bags

and I fixed the link...plus wtf can you say about facts? all you've done is ask questions in this thread, let alone present facts

Why the emotional and personal attack, YT? That's not normally your style and is more befitting of Alynskyites. I am not trying to start a fight with you on this thread and I did not make a case for Barton or Beck here. I would just like to see the criticism be rational and factual, not hateful and irrational.

Thanks for the updated link. I will check it out.

Your intellect and passion are always admirable and entertaining, but I like you a lot better when you are calm, logical and honest. In my view, your posts exhibit a suprising blind spot on both religion and Beck. Perhas it's a natural overreaction for a young pk.

[native]

...It'd be really nice if one day Christians realized that we have no place in politics and we are nowhere near where we need to be. Making up a bunch of political nonsense to try and support things we think Jesus would have liked to have seen as laws is just bullcrap. Jesus was in and amongst the people, not hanging out with the higher-ups trying to get the Jews free. ...

Maybe Christians should go meekly to the Colliseum to be eaten by lions.

[ToTheLeft]

...It'd be really nice if one day Christians realized that we have no place in politics and we are nowhere near where we need to be. Making up a bunch of political nonsense to try and support things we think Jesus would have liked to have seen as laws is just bullcrap. Jesus was in and amongst the people, not hanging out with the higher-ups trying to get the Jews free. ...

Maybe Christians should go meekly to the Colliseum to be eaten by lions.

"No place" in politics was a stretch. However, I will say that a lot of "Christian" political initiatives are crap and just things the Church has sucked at doing for a long, long time.

There's a difference between being active for preservation and being active to try and legislate the country into morality.

[youngterrier]

your hatred of facts and constant ball-sucking of Beck is baffling. I don't hate anybody, I'm just allergic to Bullsh!t and douche bags

and I fixed the link...plus wtf can you say about facts? all you've done is ask questions in this thread, let alone present facts

Why the emotional and personal attack, YT? That's not normally your style and is more befitting of Alynskyites. I am not trying to start a fight with you on this thread and I did not make a case for Barton or Beck here. I would just like to see the criticism be rational and factual, not hateful and irrational.

Thanks for the updated link. I will check it out.

Your intellect and passion are always admirable and entertaining, but I like you a lot better when you are calm, logical and honest. In my view, your posts exhibit a suprising blind spot on both religion and Beck. Perhas it's a natural overreaction for a young pk.

or maybe you asserted that I hated religion? that won't cause an emotional reaction from anyone

I don't have a blind spot on Religion or Beck. I mean seriously, I've presented rational facts, so in what way have I been "hateful and irrational"

[native]

What has Barton actually lied about, jon, skelly & YT? Just because Barton is pilloried and by the mainstream academia that recently rated Obama as one of the best US Presidents does not mean he has lied about anything. ...

http://www.publiceye.org/ifas/fw/9606/barton.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://member.tripod.com/~candst/boston1.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

for one...he admitted to MAKING UP quotes about the founding fathers, if that does not say he is a man with an agenda I don't know what is...and the youtube videos are very informative, don't dismiss them because they are long

Thanks again for the updated links. I actually agree with much of Rob Boston's criticisms of Barton to be found in the two link, for example that "correleation" is not the same as "causation." I found plenty of examples where Boston thinks Barton performed shoddy research, used an historical incident out of context, or drew incorrect conclusions from the facts, but I could not find the incident where Barton "lied" or admitted to making up quotes from the founders. Sorry if I missed it.

My conclusion is that Barton's work is rightfully subject to plenty of criticism, but so is the work of every other historian and political commentator. That does not make them liars.

[youngterrier]

http://www.publiceye.org/ifas/fw/9606/barton.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://member.tripod.com/~candst/boston1.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

for one...he admitted to MAKING UP quotes about the founding fathers, if that does not say he is a man with an agenda I don't know what is...and the youtube videos are very informative, don't dismiss them because they are long

Thanks again for the updated links. I actually agree with much of Rob Boston's criticisms of Barton to be found in the two link, for example that "correleation" is not the same as "causation." I found plenty of examples where Boston thinks Barton performed shoddy research, used an historical incident out of context, or drew incorrect conclusions from the facts, but I could not find the incident where Barton "lied" or admitted to making up quotes from the founders. Sorry if I missed it.

My conclusion is that Barton's work is rightfully subject to plenty of criticism, but so is the work of every other historian and political commentator. That does not make them liars.

well I will say that I don't think he is intentionally being subversive, however he did admit to making up quotes about the founders....I shall go link hunting

[native]

I know NOONE who takes him seriously. Just like I know NOONE who takes Sarah Palin seriously....Ya'll need to stop obsesssing about these TV personalities....

nativist takes him very seriously.

I remember him advising youngterrier to watch his show regularly... with a pen and paper in hand... and take notes.

It's fair observation of me, skelly. Although I agree that Beck can be overly damatic and sometimes wrong, I do not disparage him like everyone else here. The hysterical fear of Beck and his ideas is amusing.

Let me say this FOR Beck:
1. Beck asks intelligent questions; better than Olberman or Schultz, no worse than Maddow.
2. Beck is entertaining and openly admits to being an entertainer. ...more honestly than the others.
3. Beck calls Obama out on legitimate issues. People disparage Beck without refuting the facts and issues.
4. In addition to the fringe guests, which EVERY talk show host invites, Beck also invites more intelligent and acomplished guests than the other hosts, who tend to invite talking heads like themselves.
5. The hysterical, irrational, petty, hearsay and personal attacks on Beck far outnumber the objective, dispassionate, rational and factual criticisms of his ideas.
6. Many of Beck's criticisms of mainstream academia are quite legitimate and mirror many of the same criticisms to be found among a variety of posters on these pages.
7. Many of Beck's criticisms of Progressives and Liberals are quite legitimate and mirror many of the same criticisms to be found among a variety of posters left, right and center on these pages, including YT's criticisms of Progressives and Liberals.

Sure, I take Beck, Palin, YT and Z seriously, but I also take Joe Biden, Chris Matthews, skelly and kalm seriously. That does not mean I agree with everything they say or that I would vote for ANY of them. (...Except you, Z. I would vote for you.)

[native]

nativist takes him very seriously.

I remember him advising youngterrier to watch his show regularly... with a pen and paper in hand... and take notes.

....advice I don't listen to....and anyone who knows ANYTHING about history would not take Beck seriously, especially when he allies himself with David Barton, a man who MADE UP quotes from the founding fathers and has no legitimacy among Historians

Still can't find the quote that Barton "made up..." Barton may be subject to valid criticism, but considering the current state of academia, having "no legitimacy among historians" who voted Obama one of the greatest American Presidents is certainly not one of them.

In fact, Barton's observation that modern historians downplay the religiosity of the founders is quite accurate, and as far as I can tell, his first person quotes from the founders are accurate. It is up to the reader to judge the value and context of the quotes.

[youngterrier]

....advice I don't listen to....and anyone who knows ANYTHING about history would not take Beck seriously, especially when he allies himself with David Barton, a man who MADE UP quotes from the founding fathers and has no legitimacy among Historians

Still can't find the quote that Barton "made up..." Barton may be subject to valid criticism, but considering the current state of academia, having "no legitimacy among historians" who voted Obama one of the greatest American Presidents is certainly not one of them.

In fact, Barton's observation that modern historians downplay the religiosity of the founders is quite accurate, and as far as I can tell, his first=person quotes from the founders are accurate. It is up to the reader to judge the value and contect of the quotes.

I can find the quotes that are unconfirmed, however I cannot find the source that states he admitted to making them up.

[Cap'n Cat]

Brother Baldy,
If Jefferson were alive today, he'd be appalled at the religious right and that Beck character. His shit 200 years ago is much different than our shit, now. He'd be four-square in D1B's corner and positively aghast at the condition of church and state these days and how Conks have prostituted religion for their own gain.

Allow me, too, after that statement to make a pitch for the flexible Constitution, while we're talking about the changing times!



Conks, the new Muslims!!!



("Blacks and Jews must die. Glenn Beck is Allah! Bomb more federal buildings! Don't eat pork! Assassinate Obama!")

[native]

Still can't find the quote that Barton "made up..." Barton may be subject to valid criticism, but considering the current state of academia, having "no legitimacy among historians" who voted Obama one of the greatest American Presidents is certainly not one of them.

In fact, Barton's observation that modern historians downplay the religiosity of the founders is quite accurate, and as far as I can tell, his first=person quotes from the founders are accurate. It is up to the reader to judge the value and contect of the quotes.

I can find the quotes that are unconfirmed, however I cannot find the source that states he admitted to making them up.

I found the quotes where the critic accuses Barton of misunderstanding the founder's intent or using the quote out of context, but I could not find unconfirmed quotes. Notably, the critic makes the same mistakes of which Barton is accused by making a counter-accusation without providing context or crafting a plausible alternative interretation.

Look, I understand the criticism of Barton, but based on what I have heard with my own ears and seen with my own eyes of Barton's writings and his critics, I do not understand the accusations that he is out to create a theocracy. I am not a Barton expert, but he makes some factual claims and some legitimate points.

[Cap'n Cat]

I can find the quotes that are unconfirmed, however I cannot find the source that states he admitted to making them up.

I found the quotes where the critic accuses Barton of misunderstanding the founder's intent or using the quote out of context, but I could not find unconfirmed quotes. Notasby, the critic makes the same mistakes of which Barton is accused by making a counter-accusation without providing context or crafting a plausible alternative interretation.

Look, I understand the criticism of Barton, but based on what I have heard with my own ears and seen with my own eyes of Barton's writings and his critics, I do not understand the accusations that he is out to create a theocracy. I am not a Barton expert, but he makes some factual claims and some legitimate points.

You're biased cuz you're LDS.

[native]

I found the quotes where the critic accuses Barton of misunderstanding the founder's intent or using the quote out of context, but I could not find unconfirmed quotes. Notasby, the critic makes the same mistakes of which Barton is accused by making a counter-accusation without providing context or crafting a plausible alternative interretation.

Look, I understand the criticism of Barton, but based on what I have heard with my own ears and seen with my own eyes of Barton's writings and his critics, I do not understand the accusations that he is out to create a theocracy. I am not a Barton expert, but he makes some factual claims and some legitimate points.

You're biased cuz you're LDS.

Not really, Cap. I am neither LDS nor even an S.

I AM biased, but it's because I hate commies and everyone who makes excuses for them and carries their water.

I do not subscribe to either the tenets of the new conk muslim conservatism you posted above, or the concept of a "flexible" Constitution, which is subversion, not politics.

[Cap'n Cat]

You're biased cuz you're LDS.

Not really, Cap. I am neither LDS nor even an S.

I AM biased, but it's because I hate commies and everyone who makes excuses for them and carries their water.

What a dork, where you been? There ain't a commie left on the planet!

[youngterrier]

I can find the quotes that are unconfirmed, however I cannot find the source that states he admitted to making them up.

I found the quotes where the critic accuses Barton of misunderstanding the founder's intent or using the quote out of context, but I could not find unconfirmed quotes. Notably, the critic makes the same mistakes of which Barton is accused by making a counter-accusation without providing context or crafting a plausible alternative interretation.

Look, I understand the criticism of Barton, but based on what I have heard with my own ears and seen with my own eyes of Barton's writings and his critics, I do not understand the accusations that he is out to create a theocracy. I am not a Barton expert, but he makes some factual claims and some legitimate points.

I consider his misinterpretations with the Atkinson Bible as pushing theocracy but that is just me

[native]

Not really, Cap. I am neither LDS nor even an S.

I AM biased, but it's because I hate commies and everyone who makes excuses for them and carries their water.

What a dork, where you been? There ain't a commie left on the planet!

That's their claim and they are sticking to it!