Coronavirus COVID-19

[SDHornet]

Ruh roh, China being racist against blacks over the Chinese Flu. Wonder what the NBA thinks of this?

[Winterborn]

CDC and FDA are holding that up from what I have read.

When you're running between 15% and 20% false positives/negatives, it's time to pump the breaks for a bit. Abbott talked a big game and wasn't able to back it up.

I was just reading some on that. An example they gave was somebody tested negative twice and then only a partial positive the third time.

[Winterborn]

Just for frame of reference, end of May is 7 more weeks. Seven. Estimates right now are maybe as high as 30M unemployed in the US - that's like a 1/10 of the population, not the workforce, the population. At least double that percentage for actual unemployment.

What's so difficult about how to open things back up? We're keeping social distancing at my work - one-way hallways between cubicles, lunchroom tables are spread out, one to a table, and staggered lunches. No meetings of more than 10 people and even then it's still 6 feet for everyone. Soon to have temperature checks of any one (employees or contractors) just to get on site. Mandatory disinfections at the end of every shift. Why can't these things be done everywhere now? Restaurants go to half capacity and install plastic shields where needed. Every store could open and operate just as grocery stores do now (my grocery store has the plastic shields and one-way aisles and many stores have max customer numbers - make people wait before going in). Hairdressers and barbers and doctors can have everyone wear masks and they can juggle their appointments (i.e. reduce) so there's less overlap of people in the salon or office/hospital.

Why should we shut down for 7 (again, that's 7 more weeks? We've been shutdown in PA for about 3-4 weeks now, so you want to go a further 2/3 of the time shutdown) when we already know what needs to be done to be up and running and still effectively socially distancing and protecting people from widespread transmission. And we could do that while most people are still employed, most are still pulling a paycheck that doesn't come from the government (i.e. debt), and most are able to get the non-medical care they really do need. Put the enforcement on closing down business and places that can't do what they're supposed to do, but give everyone the chance to show that they can step up and effectively implement the common-sense things that need to be done to operate in the time of Covid.

I want this to be over now, but I can see end of March, almost 7 weeks from now. The Economy will be here after this is over. How many people won't? I would rather be on the conservative side and save lives. You have a lot of good idea's, but I don't people in general. Half will be concerned about the virus and take is seriously, the other half will act the idiots you saw on the beaches.

End of April it should be stated that the states can do what they want. Some are going to open up and some are going to stay closed. End of May is way too long and the cost to business will out way any cost of life those extra weeks may save.

[UNI88]

Just for frame of reference, end of May is 7 more weeks. Seven. Estimates right now are maybe as high as 30M unemployed in the US - that's like a 1/10 of the population, not the workforce, the population. At least double that percentage for actual unemployment.

What's so difficult about how to open things back up? We're keeping social distancing at my work - one-way hallways between cubicles, lunchroom tables are spread out, one to a table, and staggered lunches. No meetings of more than 10 people and even then it's still 6 feet for everyone. Soon to have temperature checks of any one (employees or contractors) just to get on site. Mandatory disinfections at the end of every shift. Why can't these things be done everywhere now? Restaurants go to half capacity and install plastic shields where needed. Every store could open and operate just as grocery stores do now (my grocery store has the plastic shields and one-way aisles and many stores have max customer numbers - make people wait before going in). Hairdressers and barbers and doctors can have everyone wear masks and they can juggle their appointments (i.e. reduce) so there's less overlap of people in the salon or office/hospital.

Why should we shut down for 7 (again, that's 7 more weeks? We've been shutdown in PA for about 3-4 weeks now, so you want to go a further 2/3 of the time shutdown) when we already know what needs to be done to be up and running and still effectively socially distancing and protecting people from widespread transmission. And we could do that while most people are still employed, most are still pulling a paycheck that doesn't come from the government (i.e. debt), and most are able to get the non-medical care they really do need. Put the enforcement on closing down business and places that can't do what they're supposed to do, but give everyone the chance to show that they can step up and effectively implement the common-sense things that need to be done to operate in the time of Covid.

I want this to be over now, but I can see end of March, almost 7 weeks from now. The Economy will be here after this is over. How many people won't? I would rather be on the conservative side and save lives. You have a lot of good idea's, but I don't people in general. Half will be concerned about the virus and take is seriously, the other half will act the idiots you saw on the beaches.

What if being conservative costs lives? I've heard of at least one suicide due to shelter in place. How many will there be if it lasts three times as long? What about the precipitous loss of jobs and business failures and the resulting increase in depression, domestic violence, alcoholism, and addiction? Healthcare providers aren't seeing patients for non-COVID reasons. A friend's uncle just died, a doctor wouldn't see him because he wasn't presenting with COVID symptoms.

The Economy won't be here after this is over. It will be decimated. Yes, it will come back but it will take time and many people's lives will be ruined.

Putting everything aside to focus on the virus has a cost that if it isn't already will be greater than the cost of the virus. There are a lot more variables so it's harder to predict when that will happen but it will happen.

[Gil Dobie]

I want this to be over now, but I can see end of March, almost 7 weeks from now. The Economy will be here after this is over. How many people won't? I would rather be on the conservative side and save lives. You have a lot of good idea's, but I don't people in general. Half will be concerned about the virus and take is seriously, the other half will act the idiots you saw on the beaches.

No it won't, at least not for everyone. You think everyone will have the money to just pick up right where they left off? People won't be hesitant to sit down with the fam at the local restaurant for a dinner? People hopping back into planes to fly wherever and for whatever reason? Hell, how many people will be financially wiped out when this is "over"?

This economy will come back, but not over night, and those looking to get back into it (small and local businesses) will be facing a lot of uncertainty with consumers. The longer we hold off on going back to "normal", the worse it will be for everyone.

What I meant to say was the economy will be there when it's over, good, bad or ugly. Starting over from nothing is better than the people that won't have a chance because they are dead.

[Winterborn]

Oh FFS, Ganny. You sound like a whiny girl.
1. It's not that easy. There is NO VACCINE for SARS and MERS. This one is even more difficult. This IS a groundbreaking area.
2. Price controls on pharma would mean less companies trying to figure this out on the therapeutic and prophylactic sides.
3. Go to your room.

SARS has been out for what, close to 20 years? What are our best and brightest doing that they can't figure this out? And if they can't, or if these aren't really our best and brightest, then why pay top dollar for it? I was already coming around to the idea of a national health system (NHS) here in America, and I'm not seeing anything to dissuade me at this point. If we can't have groundbreaking research and development then we might as well have a decent enough safety net for the medical care of everyone.

So you will support a system that will give you neither "ground breaking research" nor "medical care for everyone"?

Why not tweak our system so there is not as much pork in how everything is arranged. Seems much better than tearing it down to only implement a system that treats you as a number. 93 may not have been able to be treated in time under such a system and he is a pretty cool guy, for a Delaware fan that is.

The United Kingdom's National Health Service, which celebrated its 70th anniversary on July 5, is imploding.

Vacancies for doctor and nurse positions have reached all-time highs. Patients are facing interminable waits for care as a result. This August, a record number of Britons languished more than 12 hours in emergency rooms. In July, the share of cancer patients who waited more than two months to receive treatment soared.

The shortage of providers has resulted in longer wait times for patients. In May, 4.3 million people in the United Kingdom were on waiting lists for surgery, a 10-year high. Adjusting for population, that would be like having everyone in the state of Florida on waiting lists. Roughly 3,500 British patients have been on hospital waiting lists for more than a year.

More than one in five British cancer patients waits longer than two months to begin treatment after receiving a referral from a general practitioner. In Scotland, fewer than 80% of patients receive needed diagnostic tests -- endoscopies, MRIs, CT, scans and the like -- within three months.

These delays are deadly. An analysis that covered just half of England's hospitals found that almost 30,000 patients died in the past year while waiting for treatment -- an increase of 57% compared to 2013.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypipes ... b100dc3099

[SDHornet]

No it won't, at least not for everyone. You think everyone will have the money to just pick up right where they left off? People won't be hesitant to sit down with the fam at the local restaurant for a dinner? People hopping back into planes to fly wherever and for whatever reason? Hell, how many people will be financially wiped out when this is "over"?

This economy will come back, but not over night, and those looking to get back into it (small and local businesses) will be facing a lot of uncertainty with consumers. The longer we hold off on going back to "normal", the worse it will be for everyone.

What I meant to say was the economy will be there when it's over, good, bad or ugly. Starting over from nothing is better than the people that won't have a chance because they are dead.

This is the wrong mentality, and see UNI's post above for reasons I disagree with you. There is a loss of life accounted for the down economy, that can't be ignored in all of this.

Yes Gil, it sucks that people will die one way or another. A shitty decision will have to be made, but it is looking like keeping the economy shut down longer will negatively impact and cost more lives than those potentially saved with the Chinese Flu.

[BDKJMU]

We'd have never shut down if it were up to me. # of increased deaths from suicide, increased substance abuse, increased spousal & child abuse, depression-level job loss, business failures, stress, etc. (all of which will never be measured) will FAR outweigh any lives saved by destroying our economy. Just different lives.

Kind of the similar but different to virus fear mongering, economy fear mongering. The mitigation is working and saving lives. I can see a shutdown until the end of May. The virus started mass spreading mid-March, 100th death on March 16, same day Trump announced Stay the fuck home" guidelines.

If MOST of the country stays shutdown until the end of May we (the US economy) are FUCKED. For most of the country, we are already in week 5 for crowds/week 4 for "non essential" and stay at home. Other than the keeping some of the physical distancing, some of the country could open up NOW. Most could open up early-mid May. I can see a shutdown for SOME of the country until late May.

The only thing that should carry into the summer is some of the physical distancing and elderly & major pre existing continuing to self isolate.

[Gil Dobie]

Kind of the similar but different to virus fear mongering, economy fear mongering. The mitigation is working and saving lives. I can see a shutdown until the end of May. The virus started mass spreading mid-March, 100th death on March 16, same day Trump announced Stay the fuck home" guidelines.

If MOST of the country stays shutdown until the end of May we (the US economy) are FUCKED. For most of the country, we are already in week 5 for crowds/week 4 for "non essential" and stay at home. Other than the keeping some of the physical distancing, some of the country could open up NOW. Most could open up early-mid May. I can see a shutdown for SOME of the country until late May.

The only thing that should carry into the summer is some of the physical distancing and elderly & major pre existing continuing to self isolate.

......and the 39% of the people that are obese. My company is mandatory work from home until the 14th of May.

[BDKJMU]

Yup, that's the pie in the sky one. In the US alone that's 330M tests per day everyday, for apparently at least the next year if not longer. Heck, it's just close to 10 billion (yes, that's a "b" there) tests every month, or 119 trillion (with a "t") per year. How is that realistic? Beyond not being able to functionally do all that testing, what's the cost of each of these tests and let's hope they are far less than $1 per test.

I wasn’t implying testing 330 million per day. Testing available all the time as needed, silly.

Up until now we have rationed testing which can take up to 2 weeks to come back.

I know someone a month ago (S Dakota) that took 13 days to get results. Sick elderly, pre existing & health care got priority, everyone to the back of the line, plus some states had reagent shortages.

But last week Birx acknowledged this and said this isn't the case anymore. The range now is from 15 min (instant test) to 3-5 days for non priority..

[GannonFan]

Just for frame of reference, end of May is 7 more weeks. Seven. Estimates right now are maybe as high as 30M unemployed in the US - that's like a 1/10 of the population, not the workforce, the population. At least double that percentage for actual unemployment.

What's so difficult about how to open things back up? We're keeping social distancing at my work - one-way hallways between cubicles, lunchroom tables are spread out, one to a table, and staggered lunches. No meetings of more than 10 people and even then it's still 6 feet for everyone. Soon to have temperature checks of any one (employees or contractors) just to get on site. Mandatory disinfections at the end of every shift. Why can't these things be done everywhere now? Restaurants go to half capacity and install plastic shields where needed. Every store could open and operate just as grocery stores do now (my grocery store has the plastic shields and one-way aisles and many stores have max customer numbers - make people wait before going in). Hairdressers and barbers and doctors can have everyone wear masks and they can juggle their appointments (i.e. reduce) so there's less overlap of people in the salon or office/hospital.

Why should we shut down for 7 (again, that's 7 more weeks? We've been shutdown in PA for about 3-4 weeks now, so you want to go a further 2/3 of the time shutdown) when we already know what needs to be done to be up and running and still effectively socially distancing and protecting people from widespread transmission. And we could do that while most people are still employed, most are still pulling a paycheck that doesn't come from the government (i.e. debt), and most are able to get the non-medical care they really do need. Put the enforcement on closing down business and places that can't do what they're supposed to do, but give everyone the chance to show that they can step up and effectively implement the common-sense things that need to be done to operate in the time of Covid.

I want this to be over now, but I can see end of March, almost 7 weeks from now. The Economy will be here after this is over. How many people won't? I would rather be on the conservative side and save lives. You have a lot of good idea's, but I don't people in general. Half will be concerned about the virus and take is seriously, the other half will act the idiots you saw on the beaches.

If you're not going to trust people to do what they are told to do then we should stay locked down until there's a proven vaccine. Even more so if you say you want to take the conservative side and save lives from Covid. With that logic, there's never a time to open back up again until a vaccine is here. Tell me how opening up at the end of May is fundamentally different from opening up at the start of May? We won't have a vaccine, we pretty much feel there's no herd immunity with this virus so it's not like we're waiting for more people to build up antibodies (which they can't right now anyway because we're trying to prevent people from catching it at all) and we won't have instant on-demand testing for everyone so what's magical about the end of May?

[UNI88]

If MOST of the country stays shutdown until the end of May we (the US economy) are FUCKED. For most of the country, we are already in week 5 for crowds/week 4 for "non essential" and stay at home. Other than the keeping some of the physical distancing, some of the country could open up NOW. Most could open up early-mid May. I can see a shutdown for SOME of the country until late May.

The only thing that should carry into the summer is some of the physical distancing and elderly & major pre existing continuing to self isolate.

......and the 39% of the people that are obese. My company is mandatory work from home until the 14th of May.

Gil, you're fortunate that you can work from home. What about all of those people who can't? What about people working in non-essential industries like retail, restaurants & bars, entertainment, beauty, auto sales, fitness centers,non-essential industrial/manufacturing, etc.? How are they going to buy food and pay the rent? What about their landlords/mortgage holders? What about the business owners that depend on their spending? What about the governments that aren't collecting taxes on their income or their purchases? It's a snowball effect that will result in depression, alcoholism, addiction, suicides and domestic and other violence. Shelter in place and other restrictions will also cost lives and the longer it lasts, the more lives they will cost.

It's easy to say that we should stay locked down and save lives because the virus is scary and it's easier to quantify those lives than the lives lost by staying locked down but good leaders should evaluate the data (and sophisticated econometric models should be able to give some idea of when we will reach a tipping point) and make decisions to ramp down the restrictions with recommendations to those at greatest risk to self-isolate.

[Silenoz]

Anyone heard from bobby? Maybe on social media or something?

[BDKJMU]

Kind of the similar but different to virus fear mongering, economy fear mongering. The mitigation is working and saving lives. I can see a shutdown until the end of May. The virus started mass spreading mid-March, 100th death on March 16, same day Trump announced Stay the fuck home" guidelines.

Just for frame of reference, end of May is 7 more weeks. Seven. Estimates right now are maybe as high as 30M unemployed in the US - that's like a 1/10 of the population, not the workforce, the population. At least double that percentage for actual unemployment.

What's so difficult about how to open things back up? We're keeping social distancing at my work - one-way hallways between cubicles, lunchroom tables are spread out, one to a table, and staggered lunches. No meetings of more than 10 people and even then it's still 6 feet for everyone. Soon to have temperature checks of any one (employees or contractors) just to get on site. Mandatory disinfections at the end of every shift. Why can't these things be done everywhere now? Restaurants go to half capacity and install plastic shields where needed. Every store could open and operate just as grocery stores do now (my grocery store has the plastic shields and one-way aisles and many stores have max customer numbers - make people wait before going in). Hairdressers and barbers and doctors can have everyone wear masks and they can juggle their appointments (i.e. reduce) so there's less overlap of people in the salon or office/hospital.

Why should we shut down for 7 (again, that's 7 more weeks? We've been shutdown in PA for about 3-4 weeks now, so you want to go a further 2/3 of the time shutdown) when we already know what needs to be done to be up and running and still effectively socially distancing and protecting people from widespread transmission. And we could do that while most people are still employed, most are still pulling a paycheck that doesn't come from the government (i.e. debt), and most are able to get the non-medical care they really do need. Put the enforcement on closing down business and places that can't do what they're supposed to do, but give everyone the chance to show that they can step up and effectively implement the common-sense things that need to be done to operate in the time of Covid.

You beat me to it. Most of the country staying shutdown to the end of May is economic suicide, and unnecessary. Its not lives versus the economy. Its lives versus lives.

Yesterday:

The eight states without comprehensive stay-at-home orders for all residents make up less than 2% of the total coronavirus cases and deaths reported nationwide, data show.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... states-wi/
All 8 states have conk govs.

Thankfully, I see almost all the rest of the conk govs, and a chunk of sensible donk ones, will end their states shutdowns (not the physical distancing) late April to mid May.

[kalm]

I’m patiently waiting for the brightest data analytics and infectious disease experts at CS.com to build their own.

Pass. Not my area of expertise. But yeah, I'll remember these "experts" the next time the shit out a model for global warming, sea level increase, global emission standards, etc. Huge integrity hit to the scientific community imo.

It’s going to be very similar to the climate debate. Many deniers Monday quartebacking on other people’s work.

[BDKJMU]

I want this to be over now, but I can see end of March, almost 7 weeks from now. The Economy will be here after this is over. How many people won't? I would rather be on the conservative side and save lives. You have a lot of good idea's, but I don't people in general. Half will be concerned about the virus and take is seriously, the other half will act the idiots you saw on the beaches.

If you're not going to trust people to do what they are told to do then we should stay locked down until there's a proven vaccine. Even more so if you say you want to take the conservative side and save lives from Covid. With that logic, there's never a time to open back up again until a vaccine is here. Tell me how opening up at the end of May is fundamentally different from opening up at the start of May? We won't have a vaccine, we pretty much feel there's no herd immunity with this virus so it's not like we're waiting for more people to build up antibodies (which they can't right now anyway because we're trying to prevent people from catching it at all) and we won't have instant on-demand testing for everyone so what's magical about the end of May?

Its not.

[kalm]

Just for frame of reference, end of May is 7 more weeks. Seven. Estimates right now are maybe as high as 30M unemployed in the US - that's like a 1/10 of the population, not the workforce, the population. At least double that percentage for actual unemployment.

What's so difficult about how to open things back up? We're keeping social distancing at my work - one-way hallways between cubicles, lunchroom tables are spread out, one to a table, and staggered lunches. No meetings of more than 10 people and even then it's still 6 feet for everyone. Soon to have temperature checks of any one (employees or contractors) just to get on site. Mandatory disinfections at the end of every shift. Why can't these things be done everywhere now? Restaurants go to half capacity and install plastic shields where needed. Every store could open and operate just as grocery stores do now (my grocery store has the plastic shields and one-way aisles and many stores have max customer numbers - make people wait before going in). Hairdressers and barbers and doctors can have everyone wear masks and they can juggle their appointments (i.e. reduce) so there's less overlap of people in the salon or office/hospital.

Why should we shut down for 7 (again, that's 7 more weeks? We've been shutdown in PA for about 3-4 weeks now, so you want to go a further 2/3 of the time shutdown) when we already know what needs to be done to be up and running and still effectively socially distancing and protecting people from widespread transmission. And we could do that while most people are still employed, most are still pulling a paycheck that doesn't come from the government (i.e. debt), and most are able to get the non-medical care they really do need. Put the enforcement on closing down business and places that can't do what they're supposed to do, but give everyone the chance to show that they can step up and effectively implement the common-sense things that need to be done to operate in the time of Covid.

You beat me to it. Most of the country staying shutdown to the end of May is economic suicide, and unnecessary. Its not lives versus the economy. Its lives versus lives.

Yesterday:

The eight states without comprehensive stay-at-home orders for all residents make up less than 2% of the total coronavirus cases and deaths reported nationwide, data show.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... states-wi/
All 8 states have conk govs.

Thankfully, I see almost all the rest of the conk govs, and a chunk of sensible donk ones, will end their states shutdowns (not the physical distancing) late April to mid May.

Is South Dakota one of those states?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... story.html

The world's biggest pork processor, Smithfield Foods, will shut a South Dakota plant indefinitely after employees tested positive for the coronavirus. (Reuters)
By
Griff Witte
April 13, 2020 at 5:06 p.m. PDT
As governors across the country fell into line in recent weeks, South Dakota’s top elected leader stood firm: There would be no statewide order to stay home.
Such edicts to combat the spread of the novel coronavirus, Gov. Kristi L. Noem said disparagingly, reflected a “herd mentality.” It was up to individuals — not government — to decide whether “to exercise their right to work, to worship and to play. Or to even stay at home.”

And besides, the first-term Republican told reporters at a briefing this month, “South Dakota is not New York City.”
But now South Dakota is home to one of the largest single coronavirus clusters anywhere in the United States, with more than 300 workers at a giant ­pork-processing plant falling ill. With the case numbers continuing to spike, the company was forced to announce the indefinite closure of the facility Sunday, threatening the U.S. food supply

[kalm]

You beat me to it. Most of the country staying shutdown to the end of May is economic suicide, and unnecessary. Its not lives versus the economy. Its lives versus lives.

Yesterday:

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... states-wi/
All 8 states have conk govs.

Thankfully, I see almost all the rest of the conk govs, and a chunk of sensible donk ones, will end their states shutdowns (not the physical distancing) late April to mid May.

Is South Dakota one of those states?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... story.html

The world's biggest pork processor, Smithfield Foods, will shut a South Dakota plant indefinitely after employees tested positive for the coronavirus. (Reuters)
By
Griff Witte
April 13, 2020 at 5:06 p.m. PDT
As governors across the country fell into line in recent weeks, South Dakota’s top elected leader stood firm: There would be no statewide order to stay home.
Such edicts to combat the spread of the novel coronavirus, Gov. Kristi L. Noem said disparagingly, reflected a “herd mentality.” It was up to individuals — not government — to decide whether “to exercise their right to work, to worship and to play. Or to even stay at home.”

And besides, the first-term Republican told reporters at a briefing this month, “South Dakota is not New York City.”
But now South Dakota is home to one of the largest single coronavirus clusters anywhere in the United States, with more than 300 workers at a giant ­pork-processing plant falling ill. With the case numbers continuing to spike, the company was forced to announce the indefinite closure of the facility Sunday, threatening the U.S. food supply

Yep. We know enough to open it all back up....


experience has been harrowing: As of early April, the city had relatively few cases. But over the course of last week, the numbers surged as the virus ripped through the city’s Smithfield Foods production plant, a colossus that employs 3,700 people — many of them immigrants — and churns out 18 million servings of pork product per day.

On Monday alone, 57 more workers were confirmed to have positive diagnoses, bringing the total well above 300 — and making it one of the country’s largest clusters. Other major clusters include Cook County Jail in Chicago and the USS Theodore Roosevelt aircraft carrier.
The Smithfield cases amount to more than a third of the state’s overall total, which stood at 868 on Monday, including six deaths, in a state of nearly 900,000 people

[GannonFan]

You beat me to it. Most of the country staying shutdown to the end of May is economic suicide, and unnecessary. Its not lives versus the economy. Its lives versus lives.

Yesterday:

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... states-wi/
All 8 states have conk govs.

Thankfully, I see almost all the rest of the conk govs, and a chunk of sensible donk ones, will end their states shutdowns (not the physical distancing) late April to mid May.

Is South Dakota one of those states?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... story.html

The world's biggest pork processor, Smithfield Foods, will shut a South Dakota plant indefinitely after employees tested positive for the coronavirus. (Reuters)
By
Griff Witte
April 13, 2020 at 5:06 p.m. PDT
As governors across the country fell into line in recent weeks, South Dakota’s top elected leader stood firm: There would be no statewide order to stay home.
Such edicts to combat the spread of the novel coronavirus, Gov. Kristi L. Noem said disparagingly, reflected a “herd mentality.” It was up to individuals — not government — to decide whether “to exercise their right to work, to worship and to play. Or to even stay at home.”

And besides, the first-term Republican told reporters at a briefing this month, “South Dakota is not New York City.”
But now South Dakota is home to one of the largest single coronavirus clusters anywhere in the United States, with more than 300 workers at a giant ­pork-processing plant falling ill. With the case numbers continuing to spike, the company was forced to announce the indefinite closure of the facility Sunday, threatening the U.S. food supply

That's not a state thing, that's a company thing. What did Smithfield Foods do in terms of safety and cleaning in the plant? Did they institute social distancing in the plant? Where they couldn't did they institute regular disinfecting or additional PPE? Did they have testing of employees before they entered the plant? I know it's not as sexy reporting as a "GOP thing" or a "Dem thing", but the real story is about what did that company do and what didn't they do? Heck, under most stay at home orders in most states, that company would've been part of the "essential" businesses and would be operating anyway even under those orders, so again it comes down to what the individual company did.

And it does go back to Gil's point about not trusting people to do the right thing. But if you don't trust them now why would you trust them to do the right thing at the end of May? Are people more trustworthy in summer months? We won't have a vaccine or herd immunity or instant on demand testing for everyone, so we'll need to have operational controls that need to be followed by everyone. Like I said, law enforcement could step in to be the ones investigating complaints of people/businesses (maybe like Smithfield Foods) from not doing what they should be doing. But if we aren't going to trust people to follow guidelines then we should never let people out of their houses again, maybe even after we get a vaccine too.

[Gil Dobie]

......and the 39% of the people that are obese. My company is mandatory work from home until the 14th of May.

Gil, you're fortunate that you can work from home. What about all of those people who can't? What about people working in non-essential industries like retail, restaurants & bars, entertainment, beauty, auto sales, fitness centers,non-essential industrial/manufacturing, etc.? How are they going to buy food and pay the rent? What about their landlords/mortgage holders? What about the business owners that depend on their spending? What about the governments that aren't collecting taxes on their income or their purchases? It's a snowball effect that will result in depression, alcoholism, addiction, suicides and domestic and other violence. Shelter in place and other restrictions will also cost lives and the longer it lasts, the more lives they will cost.

It's easy to say that we should stay locked down and save lives because the virus is scary and it's easier to quantify those lives than the lives lost by staying locked down but good leaders should evaluate the data (and sophisticated econometric models should be able to give some idea of when we will reach a tipping point) and make decisions to ramp down the restrictions with recommendations to those at greatest risk to self-isolate.

I'll probably hunker down until things settle down.

[BDKJMU]

......and the 39% of the people that are obese. My company is mandatory work from home until the 14th of May.

Gil, you're fortunate that you can work from home. What about all of those people who can't? What about people working in non-essential industries like retail, restaurants & bars, entertainment, beauty, auto sales, fitness centers,non-essential industrial/manufacturing, etc.? How are they going to buy food and pay the rent? What about their landlords/mortgage holders? What about the business owners that depend on their spending? What about the governments that aren't collecting taxes on their income or their purchases? It's a snowball effect that will result in depression, alcoholism, addiction, suicides and domestic and other violence. Shelter in place and other restrictions will also cost lives and the longer it lasts, the more lives they will cost.

It's easy to say that we should stay locked down and save lives because the virus is scary and it's easier to quantify those lives than the lives lost by staying locked down but good leaders should evaluate the data (and sophisticated econometric models should be able to give some idea of when we will reach a tipping point) and make decisions to ramp down the restrictions with recommendations to those at greatest risk to self-isolate.

Yep, esp if we go from Recession (already there) to a Depression. It will be the above like none of us have ever seen before. Its not lives versus the economy. Its lives versus lives.

[UNI88]

You beat me to it. Most of the country staying shutdown to the end of May is economic suicide, and unnecessary. Its not lives versus the economy. Its lives versus lives.

Yesterday:

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... states-wi/
All 8 states have conk govs.

Thankfully, I see almost all the rest of the conk govs, and a chunk of sensible donk ones, will end their states shutdowns (not the physical distancing) late April to mid May.

Is South Dakota one of those states?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... story.html

The world's biggest pork processor, Smithfield Foods, will shut a South Dakota plant indefinitely after employees tested positive for the coronavirus. (Reuters)
By
Griff Witte
April 13, 2020 at 5:06 p.m. PDT
As governors across the country fell into line in recent weeks, South Dakota’s top elected leader stood firm: There would be no statewide order to stay home.
Such edicts to combat the spread of the novel coronavirus, Gov. Kristi L. Noem said disparagingly, reflected a “herd mentality.” It was up to individuals — not government — to decide whether “to exercise their right to work, to worship and to play. Or to even stay at home.”

And besides, the first-term Republican told reporters at a briefing this month, “South Dakota is not New York City.”
But now South Dakota is home to one of the largest single coronavirus clusters anywhere in the United States, with more than 300 workers at a giant ­pork-processing plant falling ill. With the case numbers continuing to spike, the company was forced to announce the indefinite closure of the facility Sunday, threatening the U.S. food supply

Speaking of MMQB'ing ... If she had issued a stay home order, would the plant not be closing down? Would the plant workers have been deemed essential? If not, the plant would have been closed by order. If yes, couldn't the workers have gotten sick anyway? The "you can't know what the numbers would be without shelter-in-place" argument works the other way too.

IMO, shelter-in-place, social distancing (I hate that term, it should be physical distancing because technology still allows us to be social), etc. should be used for the general populace to give healthcare, manufacturing and the supply chain time to develop and distribute the products and capacity to handle the virus. The next logical timeframe after that is 18+ months until there is a vaccine because there will be secondary and tertiary outbreaks.

[Gil Dobie]

Gil, you're fortunate that you can work from home. What about all of those people who can't? What about people working in non-essential industries like retail, restaurants & bars, entertainment, beauty, auto sales, fitness centers,non-essential industrial/manufacturing, etc.? How are they going to buy food and pay the rent? What about their landlords/mortgage holders? What about the business owners that depend on their spending? What about the governments that aren't collecting taxes on their income or their purchases? It's a snowball effect that will result in depression, alcoholism, addiction, suicides and domestic and other violence. Shelter in place and other restrictions will also cost lives and the longer it lasts, the more lives they will cost.

It's easy to say that we should stay locked down and save lives because the virus is scary and it's easier to quantify those lives than the lives lost by staying locked down but good leaders should evaluate the data (and sophisticated econometric models should be able to give some idea of when we will reach a tipping point) and make decisions to ramp down the restrictions with recommendations to those at greatest risk to self-isolate.

Yep, esp if we go from Recession (already there) to a Depression. It will be the above like none of us have ever seen before. Its not lives versus the economy. Its lives versus lives.

More fear mongering. I just hope whoever makes the decision, makes one that turns out for the best. Dying of this virus, from what I've heard, is not very pleasant. You slowly suffocate because the virus destroys your lung cells, and Oxygen can't circulate to you organs.

[BDKJMU]

Is South Dakota one of those states?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... story.html

The world's biggest pork processor, Smithfield Foods, will shut a South Dakota plant indefinitely after employees tested positive for the coronavirus. (Reuters)
By
Griff Witte
April 13, 2020 at 5:06 p.m. PDT
As governors across the country fell into line in recent weeks, South Dakota’s top elected leader stood firm: There would be no statewide order to stay home.
Such edicts to combat the spread of the novel coronavirus, Gov. Kristi L. Noem said disparagingly, reflected a “herd mentality.” It was up to individuals — not government — to decide whether “to exercise their right to work, to worship and to play. Or to even stay at home.”

And besides, the first-term Republican told reporters at a briefing this month, “South Dakota is not New York City.”
But now South Dakota is home to one of the largest single coronavirus clusters anywhere in the United States, with more than 300 workers at a giant ­pork-processing plant falling ill. With the case numbers continuing to spike, the company was forced to announce the indefinite closure of the facility Sunday, threatening the U.S. food supply

Speaking of MMQB'ing ... If she had issued a stay home order, would the plant not be closing down? Would the plant workers have been deemed essential? If not, the plant would have been closed by order. If yes, couldn't the workers have gotten sick anyway? The "you can't know what the numbers would be without shelter-in-place" argument works the other way too.

IMO, shelter-in-place, social distancing (I hate that term, it should be physical distancing because technology still allows us to be social), etc. should be used for the general populace to give healthcare, manufacturing and the supply chain time to develop and distribute the products and capacity to handle the virus. The next logical timeframe after that is 18+ months until there is a vaccine because there will be secondary and tertiary outbreaks.

Hate the term also. When we were all kids, I doubt any of us were ever told by teachers or coaches to 'socially distance' ourselves. Did anyone ever even hear of this term before a couple months ago?

When you are in a room, you are physically present, not socially present.
When you touch someone, you are physically touch them, not socially touch them.

Last month I saw a PSA commercial that included among others Fauci explaining what socially distancing was. He said it was keeping 'physical separation' or 'physical distancing' of 6 feet.

So why the f are people not just calling it 'physical distancing'

[bobbythekidd]

Anyone heard from bobby? Maybe on social media or something?

It's Bob dammit!

Day 2- just had a tele-visit with my doc. She asked me to come in to test for flu, strep, and coronavirus. Results in 72 hours for the big one.