2020 General Election

[JohnStOnge]

BTW, speaking as a person who voted consistently for Republican candidates for my first 40 years as an eligible voter, I will say that the way the Republican Party has acted with respect to this election has just about eliminated any fraction of the already minuscule likelihood that I will ever vote for a Republican again.

There never was any legitimate doubt about who won the 2020 Presidential election. Yet almost the entire Republican Party jumped on board with Trump's nonsense and put this country through absolute hell for over two months while creating a situation where the atmosphere is now completely poisoned. Also, we now have to worry about stuff like this happening again because they actually came pretty close to stealing the election. Now we have to worry about having them do this crap every time.

Meanwhile they censor people for voting their consciences by voting to impeach Trump while they turn a blind eye from a Republican Congresswoman who says California wildfires were started by lasers from space and believes that QAnon crap.

They are completely off the rails and they are a danger to this country.

[kalm]

BTW, speaking as a person who voted consistently for Republican candidates for my first 40 years as an eligible voter, I will say that the way the Republican Party has acted with respect to this election has just about eliminated any fraction of the already minuscule likelihood that I will ever vote for a Republican again.

There never was any legitimate doubt about who won the 2020 Presidential election. Yet almost the entire Republican Party jumped on board with Trump's nonsense and put this country through absolute hell for over two months while creating a situation where the atmosphere is now completely poisoned. Also, we now have to worry about stuff like this happening again because they actually came pretty close to stealing the election. Now we have to worry about having them do this crap every time.

Meanwhile they censor people for voting their consciences by voting to impeach Trump while they turn a blind eye from a Republican Congresswoman who says California wildfires were started by lasers from space and believes that QAnon crap.

They are completely off the rails and they are a danger to this country.

You’re not alone. I have life-long R friends who have avowed never go back after all of this.

Trump is still the leader of the party and all is quiet so far on the sane Republican front.

[Pwns]

It's real easy to say you're done with a major party until you figure out the only other options are going to the other major party or for third parties that cant top 5% of the popular vote.

[kalm]

It's real easy to say you're done with a major party until you figure out the only other options are going to the other major party or for third parties that cant top 5% of the popular vote.

Well with that kind of attitude, how could you expect them to get more than 5%?

[SeattleGriz]

Don't believe he was looking to have any states thrown out. He was looking to have certain votes thrown out, and for reasons such as you guys are talking about. Rule changes made outside the normal process, such as state legislatures.

In fact, you could argue that I have been disenfranchised. I met every rule to vote legally here in Washington and allowing other votes to count that did not meet the same rigor has "diluted" my vote.

He was indeed trying to have election results for entire states thrown out. He tried to get State legislatures to take over and replace the slates of electors selected by voters with Trump electors picked by the legislatures. He did do that.

Also, the arbiters of whether election law was violated so that votes should be thrown our are the State courts. There was cases related to that. They failed.

Okay, agreed. I was taking Klams statement differently for some reason. You putting it that way, I can agree with that statement.

[SeattleGriz]

Ooof! If true, no wonder Trump got hammered in the courts. To save you the reading, Gulianni and his team, are way out of thier league in helping with election fraud court cases. The quote below is about a one page summary Byrne was asked to put together for Gulianni because he couldn't understand how the fraud was committed.

The guy who wrote the article is Patrick Byrne, former Overstock.com CEO and a guy who has been trying to help Trump.

https://www.deepcapture.com/2021/01/nov ... nts-teams/

Sunday evening I got a phone call at 11 PM, telling me Mayor Giuliani and his entourage were dining in such-and-such a Georgetown restaurant, and would I mind bringing what I had written over to them. I got dressed and went, but when I arrived his security told me to sit in the bar and wait. I did for 45 minutes until someone came out of the Mayor’s private dining room to tell me the Mayor asked that I not come back to his table (security was concerned about me, apparently), but asked me to simply send into the private dining room the paper I had written. I sent it in, then left.

Later, people in that room told me what happened when my paper arrived.

First, in the 90 minutes between 11:30 PM and 1 AM, Mayor Giuliani imbibed three triple scotches on ice. Those relating this story could not vouch for what he had drunk before 11:30.

Second, in front of everyone, Rudy took my paper and read it for perhaps 45 seconds, then put it aside saying, “I’ll get to this later.”

A little gem for the Trump haters:

One evening, once we were close enough, I let down my hair and said, “This is a shit-show. Is this …. normal?” One of the staffers (and mind you, a pro-Trump one) said, “This is it. This is the Trump White House. This is how everything has run for four years.”

[Skjellyfetti]

Wasn’t Team Trump attempting to have select states thrown out or have new elections?

Don't believe he was looking to have any states thrown out. He was looking to have certain votes thrown out, and for reasons such as you guys are talking about. Rule changes made outside the normal process, such as state legislatures.

In fact, you could argue that I have been disenfranchised. I met every rule to vote legally here in Washington and allowing other votes to count that did not meet the same rigor has "diluted" my vote.

He and a group of Republicans in the House and Senate were literally trying to invalidate certified elections in a handful of states. If they were successful, they would have disenfranchised millions of voters.

And, btw, when it became clear that Pence was not going to help... Trump's supporters stormed the Capitol and interrupted the proceedings.

[SeattleGriz]

Don't believe he was looking to have any states thrown out. He was looking to have certain votes thrown out, and for reasons such as you guys are talking about. Rule changes made outside the normal process, such as state legislatures.

In fact, you could argue that I have been disenfranchised. I met every rule to vote legally here in Washington and allowing other votes to count that did not meet the same rigor has "diluted" my vote.

He and a group of Republicans in the House and Senate were literally trying to invalidate certified elections in a handful of states. If they were successful, they would have disenfranchised millions of voters.

And, btw, when it became clear that Pence was not going to help... Trump's supporters stormed the Capitol and interrupted the proceedings.

StOnge pointed this out I now agree. Was misunderstanding what had been said by Klam.

[BDKJMU]

Don't believe he was looking to have any states thrown out. He was looking to have certain votes thrown out, and for reasons such as you guys are talking about. Rule changes made outside the normal process, such as state legislatures.

In fact, you could argue that I have been disenfranchised. I met every rule to vote legally here in Washington and allowing other votes to count that did not meet the same rigor has "diluted" my vote.

He was indeed trying to have election results for entire states thrown out. He tried to get State legislatures to take over and replace the slates of electors selected by voters with Trump electors picked by the legislatures. He did do that.

Also, the arbiters of whether election law was violated so that votes should be thrown our are the State courts. There was cases related to that. They failed.

PA election law clearly states absentee ballots have to be in by 8 PM election day. Cut and dry. Zero doubt that PA election law was violated. That's not even debatable. The 5 donk/2 conk PA Sup Ct gave the ok 4-3 to violate PA election law. SCOTUS punted 4-4 with Robert sided with the libs (ACB wasn't yet confirmed).

[Skjellyfetti]

And those PA ballots were segregated and not counted. There were approximately 10,000 of them. Biden's margin was ~80k.
https://www.inquirer.com/politics/elect ... 01220.html

[JohnStOnge]

It's real easy to say you're done with a major party until you figure out the only other options are going to the other major party or for third parties that cant top 5% of the popular vote.

I always voted Republican in national elections because I tried to pick what I viewed as the lessor of two evils and did not want to waste my vote by voting for someone not from the two major parties. Now I vote Democrat for the same reason.

After what's gone on since the Republican Party decided to go with Trump makes it hard for me to see how I can ever view the Democrat Party as the greater of the two evils again. Always possible. But the Republican Party has gone completely bat shit crazy and just showed that it is willing to try to stay in power or (presumably) grab power by overturning the Will of the People as expressed through an election. They are beholding to a core base of complete nut jobs who are totally divorced from reality. That's who they pander to. I used to think the Democrats did some pretty bad things but nothing I've seen them do comes anywhere close to what the Republicans have done over the past 5 years; culminating in what has happened since 2020 election day.

[Pwns]

It's real easy to say you're done with a major party until you figure out the only other options are going to the other major party or for third parties that cant top 5% of the popular vote.

I always voted Republican in national elections because I tried to pick what I viewed as the lessor of two evils and did not want to waste my vote by voting for someone not from the two major parties. Now I vote Democrat for the same reason.

After what's gone on since the Republican Party decided to go with Trump makes it hard for me to see how I can ever view the Democrat Party as the greater of the two evils again. Always possible. But the Republican Party has gone completely bat shit crazy and just showed that it is willing to try to stay in power or (presumably) grab power by overturning the Will of the People as expressed through an election. They are beholding to a core base of complete nut jobs who are totally divorced from reality. That's who they pander to. I used to think the Democrats did some pretty bad things but nothing I've seen them do comes anywhere close to what the Republicans have done over the past 5 years; culminating in what has happened since 2020 election day.

I can understand not liking Trump. I can understand voting third party or not at all because you don't like either party or candidate. But it's unconscionable to me that someone like yourself could become a Democratic voter with how radically "egalitarian" (I use that word in the sense that you use it) that party is. If they get their way people like your deaf son that graduated law school will be discriminated against in college admissions to right wrongs they are certain are to blame for social and economic disparities today even though his challenges in school are far greater than most minorities. And that doesn't even get into your professed economic conservatism as well.

[UNI88]

And those PA ballots were segregated and not counted. There were approximately 10,000 of them. Biden's margin was ~80k.
https://www.inquirer.com/politics/elect ... 01220.html

I don't think the election was stolen but I do think it matters that the PA Supreme Court stepped outside its bounds and performed a legislative function by changing the law. I get that we were in the midst of a pandemic and that the change made some sense but it wasn't their decision to make. Members of the Court who voted in favor of that change should be censured or something similar.

What will you do when a conservative supreme court in another state does something similar that favors a conservative cause?

[JohnStOnge]

I always voted Republican in national elections because I tried to pick what I viewed as the lessor of two evils and did not want to waste my vote by voting for someone not from the two major parties. Now I vote Democrat for the same reason.

After what's gone on since the Republican Party decided to go with Trump makes it hard for me to see how I can ever view the Democrat Party as the greater of the two evils again. Always possible. But the Republican Party has gone completely bat shit crazy and just showed that it is willing to try to stay in power or (presumably) grab power by overturning the Will of the People as expressed through an election. They are beholding to a core base of complete nut jobs who are totally divorced from reality. That's who they pander to. I used to think the Democrats did some pretty bad things but nothing I've seen them do comes anywhere close to what the Republicans have done over the past 5 years; culminating in what has happened since 2020 election day.

I can understand not liking Trump. I can understand voting third party or not at all because you don't like either party or candidate. But it's unconscionable to me that someone like yourself could become a Democratic voter with how radically "egalitarian" (I use that word in the sense that you use it) that party is. If they get their way people like your deaf son that graduated law school will be discriminated against in college admissions to right wrongs they are certain are to blame for social and economic disparities today even though his challenges in school are far greater than most minorities. And that doesn't even get into your professed economic conservatism as well.

The Republican Party just tried to subvert our Representative Republic form of government. The Democrats have never done anything even close to what the Republicans just did. It's very serious. The Republicans just tried to give us a Putin. No. I'm not supporting a Party that would do that. I'm going to vote so as to minimize its power.

[Skjellyfetti]

And those PA ballots were segregated and not counted. There were approximately 10,000 of them. Biden's margin was ~80k.
https://www.inquirer.com/politics/elect ... 01220.html

I don't think the election was stolen but I do think it matters that the PA Supreme Court stepped outside its bounds and performed a legislative function by changing the law. I get that we were in the midst of a pandemic and that the change made some sense but it wasn't their decision to make. Members of the Court who voted in favor of that change should be censured or something similar.

What will you do when a conservative supreme court in another state does something similar that favors a conservative cause?

I don't think they overstepped their bounds.

The PA legislature passed a sweeping voting overhaul in 2019.

Read more here:
https://www.governor.pa.gov/newsroom/go ... in-voting/

It allowed voters to submit a ballot until 8:00 pm on election day.

There were legal questions about how that should be implemented.

If a voter submits a ballot before 8:00 pm on election day, but it arrives after election day, should it be counted? Also questions about ballots lacking postmarks.

The Court is the appropriate place to decide those questions that are not spelled out in the law. The legislature could have also passed a law to answer those questions, but they did not. Without the Court ruling or the legislature passing a law that addresses those issues, how do you expect those questions to be answered? Should it just be left to the whims of local officials to decide how to implement it?

[JohnStOnge]

I don't think they overstepped their bounds.

The PA legislature passed a sweeping voting overhaul in 2019.

Read more here:
https://www.governor.pa.gov/newsroom/go ... in-voting/

It allowed voters to submit a ballot until 8:00 pm on election day.

There were legal questions about how that should be implemented.

If a voter submits a ballot before 8:00 pm on election day, but it arrives after election day, should it be counted? Also questions about ballots lacking postmarks.

The Court is the appropriate place to decide those questions that are not spelled out in the law.

I've got to say that I historically railed against the courts. But the courts saved us in this situation. Even Trump appointees to the Federal courts pretty much uniformly rejected the nonsense presented by Trump and his allies.

[AZGrizFan]

It's real easy to say you're done with a major party until you figure out the only other options are going to the other major party or for third parties that cant top 5% of the popular vote.

I always voted Republican in national elections because I tried to pick what I viewed as the lessor of two evils and did not want to waste my vote by voting for someone not from the two major parties. Now I vote Democrat for the same reason.

After what's gone on since the Republican Party decided to go with Trump makes it hard for me to see how I can ever view the Democrat Party as the greater of the two evils again. Always possible. But the Republican Party has gone completely bat shit crazy and just showed that it is willing to try to stay in power or (presumably) grab power by overturning the Will of the People as expressed through an election. They are beholding to a core base of complete nut jobs who are totally divorced from reality. That's who they pander to. I used to think the Democrats did some pretty bad things but nothing I've seen them do comes anywhere close to what the Republicans have done over the past 5 years; culminating in what has happened since 2020 election day.

If you don’t think the Democrat party is just as batshit crazy and willing to do literally anything to stay in power then your dumber than even I gave you credit for.

They’re two sides of the same coin, John. it’s really not that complicated.

[AZGrizFan]

It's real easy to say you're done with a major party until you figure out the only other options are going to the other major party or for third parties that cant top 5% of the popular vote.

Well with that kind of attitude, how could you expect them to get more than 5%?

[UNI88]

I always voted Republican in national elections because I tried to pick what I viewed as the lessor of two evils and did not want to waste my vote by voting for someone not from the two major parties. Now I vote Democrat for the same reason.

After what's gone on since the Republican Party decided to go with Trump makes it hard for me to see how I can ever view the Democrat Party as the greater of the two evils again. Always possible. But the Republican Party has gone completely bat shit crazy and just showed that it is willing to try to stay in power or (presumably) grab power by overturning the Will of the People as expressed through an election. They are beholding to a core base of complete nut jobs who are totally divorced from reality. That's who they pander to. I used to think the Democrats did some pretty bad things but nothing I've seen them do comes anywhere close to what the Republicans have done over the past 5 years; culminating in what has happened since 2020 election day.

If you don’t think the Democrat party is just as batshit crazy and willing to do literally anything to stay in power then your dumber than even I gave you credit for.

They’re two sides of the same coin, John. it’s really not that complicated.

Could someone do me a favor and let me know if John posts something original (i.e. not the usual Trump is bad, I'm a conservative ad nauseam bullshit).

[kalm]

If you don’t think the Democrat party is just as batshit crazy and willing to do literally anything to stay in power then your dumber than even I gave you credit for.

They’re two sides of the same coin, John. it’s really not that complicated.

Could someone do me a favor and let me know if John posts something original (i.e. not the usual Trump is bad, I'm a conservative ad nauseam bullshit).

“UNI88 wrote: People have less of a problem with punching sideways or up than down but they're also more likely to overlook or rationalize inflammatory statements and actions by people they agree or sympathize with.”

You don’t say...

[UNI88]

Could someone do me a favor and let me know if John posts something original (i.e. not the usual Trump is bad, I'm a conservative ad nauseam bullshit).

“UNI88 wrote: People have less of a problem with punching sideways or up than down but they're also more likely to overlook or rationalize inflammatory statements and actions by people they agree or sympathize with.”

You don’t say...

You're right, I was punching down. My apologies to John. I'll try not to pick on the slow kids again.

[BDKJMU]

I don't think the election was stolen but I do think it matters that the PA Supreme Court stepped outside its bounds and performed a legislative function by changing the law. I get that we were in the midst of a pandemic and that the change made some sense but it wasn't their decision to make. Members of the Court who voted in favor of that change should be censured or something similar.

What will you do when a conservative supreme court in another state does something similar that favors a conservative cause?

I don't think they overstepped their bounds.

The PA legislature passed a sweeping voting overhaul in 2019.

Read more here:
https://www.governor.pa.gov/newsroom/go ... in-voting/

It allowed voters to submit a ballot until 8:00 pm on election day.

There were legal questions about how that should be implemented.

If a voter submits a ballot before 8:00 pm on election day, but it arrives after election day, should it be counted? Also questions about ballots lacking postmarks.

The Court is the appropriate place to decide those questions that are not spelled out in the law. The legislature could have also passed a law to answer those questions, but they did not. Without the Court ruling or the legislature passing a law that addresses those issues, how do you expect those questions to be answered? Should it just be left to the whims of local officials to decide how to implement it?

Putting your vote in the mail isn't "submitting" The arriving by 8 PM on election day is pretty cut and dry. Just like most bills people mail must arrive by their due date in order to not be considered late/get a late fee.. A postmark isn't "submitted".

[Gil Dobie]

I don't think they overstepped their bounds.

The PA legislature passed a sweeping voting overhaul in 2019.

Read more here:
https://www.governor.pa.gov/newsroom/go ... in-voting/

It allowed voters to submit a ballot until 8:00 pm on election day.

There were legal questions about how that should be implemented.

If a voter submits a ballot before 8:00 pm on election day, but it arrives after election day, should it be counted? Also questions about ballots lacking postmarks.

The Court is the appropriate place to decide those questions that are not spelled out in the law. The legislature could have also passed a law to answer those questions, but they did not. Without the Court ruling or the legislature passing a law that addresses those issues, how do you expect those questions to be answered? Should it just be left to the whims of local officials to decide how to implement it?

Putting your vote in the mail isn't "submitting" The arriving by 8 PM on election day is pretty cut and dry. Just like most bills people mail must arrive by their due date in order to not be considered late/get a late fee.. A postmark isn't "submitted".

Income Tax returns must be postmarked April 15th at the latest. Several Postal stations stay open until midnight that day, to take returns.

[CAA Flagship]

Putting your vote in the mail isn't "submitting" The arriving by 8 PM on election day is pretty cut and dry. Just like most bills people mail must arrive by their due date in order to not be considered late/get a late fee.. A postmark isn't "submitted".

Income Tax returns must be postmarked April 15th at the latest. Several Postal stations stay open until midnight that day, to take returns.

The Post Office is the Federal Govt. The IRS is the Federal Govt. That is the link.
Bills payments sent to the Post Office is not in the hands of the non-public company at that time. So that's the real difference.
Now elections are run by the State Govts. This is where there is a gray area. How much control do State Govts have with the Post Office? (serious question) Maybe there is enough to justify the postmark of ballots, I don't know. But THAT is the question that needs to be asked here.

[kalm]

I don't think they overstepped their bounds.

The PA legislature passed a sweeping voting overhaul in 2019.

Read more here:
https://www.governor.pa.gov/newsroom/go ... in-voting/

It allowed voters to submit a ballot until 8:00 pm on election day.

There were legal questions about how that should be implemented.

If a voter submits a ballot before 8:00 pm on election day, but it arrives after election day, should it be counted? Also questions about ballots lacking postmarks.

The Court is the appropriate place to decide those questions that are not spelled out in the law. The legislature could have also passed a law to answer those questions, but they did not. Without the Court ruling or the legislature passing a law that addresses those issues, how do you expect those questions to be answered? Should it just be left to the whims of local officials to decide how to implement it?

Putting your vote in the mail isn't "submitting" The arriving by 8 PM on election day is pretty cut and dry. Just like most bills people mail must arrive by their due date in order to not be considered late/get a late fee.. A postmark isn't "submitted".

I thought the issue was allowing ballots RECEIVED after the Election Day deadline? Why would the submission deadline not be the postmark? Many if not most companies have a grace period for late fees due to the uncertainty of mail delivery times.