Kerry Fails Again-Iran Talks Extended-No Agreement In Sight

[89Hen]

They are cute, aren't they?

Naive would include US government concerns over existential threats.

(Hint: recent track record ain’t too good).

Go ahead and make fun of the Crimson Jihad.

[kalm]

Naive would include US government concerns over existential threats.

(Hint: recent track record ain’t too good).

Go ahead and make fun of the Crimson Jihad.

Who?

[JohnStOnge]

I get that opinion and don't necessarily disagree. I completely disagree Iran was going to rain down death and destruction on Americans. I mean we sit here and praise Trump for bringing North Korea to the table while they already have nukes. Yet the previous administration creates a preventative measure at best, and delaying action at worst, before a nation acquires nukes and it's no good? Why?

I really don’t enjoy continually labeling you as naive, but c’mon man. These are the Iranians. They weren’t ever going to hold their end of the bargain.

Tell me you knew that?!?

I don't think that the concern was that they would not hold up their end of the bargain. I think the concern was that they could hold up their end of the bargain and still do a lot of bad stuff. Then after a while they could resume their pursuit of nuclear weapons.

So far, at least to my understanding, they have upheld their end of the bargain and we just failed to uphold ours. Maybe that's a good thing and maybe it's not. But my understanding is that, as a nation, the US is the one that failed to live up to what it agreed to do.

[CID1990]

I really don’t enjoy continually labeling you as naive, but c’mon man. These are the Iranians. They weren’t ever going to hold their end of the bargain.

Tell me you knew that?!?

Every nation included in the pact, the IAEA, and our intelligence services (including senior Trump officials) say Iran's holding up their end of the bargain.



It's arguably one of the most successful arms-control deals in modern history. So no, I didn't know that.

I put a big space in there where you departed from reality

The parameters of "the deal" were agreed to by the Iranians because the inspection and verification regime allows them to continue working on their nuclear weapons program.

So in terms of the parameters of the deal, you are mostly correct.

But it is the ultimate deception and borderline insanity to compare it with actual arms treaties that have unlimited and spot inspections like the START treaties.

I said a long time ago on this thread that Iran was going to get the bomb no matter what. This deal makes it so that the West helps pay for a state sponsor of terrorism to get it.

Someone else said it gets old calling you naive but its really the only word to use


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[∞∞∞]

Call me what you want; this message board is a tool to vent frustrations and exchange ideas.

The real work is done on the ground.

[JohnStOnge]

I think that most if not all of us don't really know what's in the Iran nuclear deal. We have to go with other peoples' descriptions of it. If we WERE interested in reading it we could at https://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/docum ... deal/1651/. But I know I'M not going to do it. So we have to go with other people's description of it.

The big thing to me at the time is that I thought we needed to ratify it according to the Constitution and I don't think we did. I think this is one of those things kind of like the idea that Congress has to declare war. We've found ways around doing it the way we should do it. Here's an article on the proliferation of "Executive Agreements" as opposed to treaties:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mon ... b43646a46e

We let Presidents do too much. It won't happen but we really need to stop this crap of thinking of a President as a King. The President is the Chief Executive of the Executive Branch. That's it. This thing of vesting the President with all sorts of powers should stop. Congress is the primary branch of government. Congress makes the law. Congress can override the President. All the President is there for is to implement what Congress establishes as Law. That's the way it should be viewed.

[CID1990]

I think that most if not all of us don't really know what's in the Iran nuclear deal. We have to go with other peoples' descriptions of it. If we WERE interested in reading it we could at https://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/docum ... deal/1651/. But I know I'M not going to do it. So we have to go with other people's description of it.

The big thing to me at the time is that I thought we needed to ratify it according to the Constitution and I don't think we did. I think this is one of those things kind of like the idea that Congress has to declare war. We've found ways around doing it the way we should do it. Here's an article on the proliferation of "Executive Agreements" as opposed to treaties:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mon ... b43646a46e

This is a novel post, JSO

I can't believe this hasn't been brought up already


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[AZGrizFan]

Huh? You do realize that the vast majority of folks in the 1770's American colonies were here too either because of persecution or because they were born here, correct?

As in changing the system from within with an armed revolution.

Well it ain’t gonna change sitting around in a circle and singing Kumbayah....

[GannonFan]

Congress is the primary branch of government. Congress makes the law. Congress can override the President. All the President is there for is to implement what Congress establishes as Law. That's the way it should be viewed.

So you don't even believe in the Constitution anymore. The descent into madness is complete, JSO is 100% delusional. Awesome.

[SDHornet]

And further validation Trump made the right move for the US:

Should have appeased these "moderates" harder.

[SDHornet]

Congress is the primary branch of government. Congress makes the law. Congress can override the President. All the President is there for is to implement what Congress establishes as Law. That's the way it should be viewed.

So you don't even believe in the Constitution anymore. The descent into madness is complete, JSO is 100% delusional. Awesome.

Naw that happened back in Nov 16.

[Winterborn]

Stop it, it was never an arms-control deal. There were literally numerous places, under the agreement, where we were not allowed to go, and even the places we could go there were such provisions in place in terms of advance notice that it was ineffectual. It was a window-dressing deal, it sounded good, it looked good, when we ticked off the boxes of whether the deal was being followed we could tick off the boxes, but it didn't really do anything of merit. Iran is going to have nuclear weapons, deal or no deal. Nothing has changed in that regard.

Kind of like a lap dance then, feels good for a bit till you realize that is all you are going to get.

[Ibanez]

*lyme

unless you're afraid of scurvy

directional school

A Vitamin C deficiency is nothing to joke about.

[AZGrizFan]

I really don’t enjoy continually labeling you as naive, but c’mon man. These are the Iranians. They weren’t ever going to hold their end of the bargain.

Tell me you knew that?!?

I don't think that the concern was that they would not hold up their end of the bargain. I think the concern was that they could hold up their end of the bargain and still do a lot of bad stuff. Then after a while they could resume their pursuit of nuclear weapons.

So far, at least to my understanding, they have upheld their end of the bargain and we just failed to uphold ours. Maybe that's a good thing and maybe it's not. But my understanding is that, as a nation, the US is the one that failed to live up to what it agreed to do.

So, in your world we should remain committed to a totally shitty agreement that accomplishes absolutely nothing and in which they still plow along with their nuclear program because the previous president and SOS were stupid enough to sign it?

You have totally gone off the deep end.

[AZGrizFan]

Stop it, it was never an arms-control deal. There were literally numerous places, under the agreement, where we were not allowed to go, and even the places we could go there were such provisions in place in terms of advance notice that it was ineffectual. It was a window-dressing deal, it sounded good, it looked good, when we ticked off the boxes of whether the deal was being followed we could tick off the boxes, but it didn't really do anything of merit. Iran is going to have nuclear weapons, deal or no deal. Nothing has changed in that regard.

Kind of like a lap dance then, feels good for a bit till you realize that is all you are going to get.

Unless you go to certain strip clubs in Austin.

[AZGrizFan]

And further validation Trump made the right move for the US:

Should have appeased these "moderates" harder.

Is it me or are the flags getting smaller?

[Ibanez]

Call me what you want; this message board is a tool to vent frustrations and exchange ideas.

The real work is done on the ground.

That's good, Trip. You should continue to come here. It's our collective experiences that help each other understand the world, different perspectives, etc...

[93henfan]

Well, this move certainly jolted the markets.



They’re all up nearly a percent today.

OK, OK. Today was the day the markets finally reacted to this abdication of US leadership.




Nope, JK. Up another percent today almost.

[Winterborn]

Is it me or are the flags getting smaller?

Sanctions must be working!

[93henfan]

Is it me or are the flags getting smaller?

Sanctions must be working!

[andy7171]

And your generation is naive and humorous.

Perhaps, but I'd rather be naive and humorous than wanting death and destruction.

phpBB [video]

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[Chizzang]

Perhaps, but I'd rather be naive and humorous than wanting death and destruction.

phpBB [video]

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad had her shot back in 2009...

[andy7171]

phpBB [video]

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad had her shot back in 2009...

Same people trip is defending


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[JohnStOnge]

I don't think that the concern was that they would not hold up their end of the bargain. I think the concern was that they could hold up their end of the bargain and still do a lot of bad stuff. Then after a while they could resume their pursuit of nuclear weapons.

So far, at least to my understanding, they have upheld their end of the bargain and we just failed to uphold ours. Maybe that's a good thing and maybe it's not. But my understanding is that, as a nation, the US is the one that failed to live up to what it agreed to do.

So, in your world we should remain committed to a totally shitty agreement that accomplishes absolutely nothing and in which they still plow along with their nuclear program because the previous president and SOS were stupid enough to sign it?

You have totally gone off the deep end.

In my world and everybody else's world the United States as a nation broke its word. Maybe the circumstances are such that doing that was the best thing to do. Don't know. But as far as the rest of the world is concerned the United States broke its word. I don't think that's a small thing.

[JohnStOnge]

So, in your world we should remain committed to a totally shitty agreement that accomplishes absolutely nothing and in which they still plow along with their nuclear program because the previous president and SOS were stupid enough to sign it?

You have totally gone off the deep end.

BTW, there is a question as to whether the premise that the agreement "accomplishes absolutely nothing" is true. Here's an example of one discussion including references to things it accomplished:

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/impact ... -agreement

U.S. President Donald J. Trump’s decision to withdraw from the Iran nuclear agreement and reimpose sanctions jeopardizes the landmark arms control agreement, under which Iran dismantled much of its nuclear program and international inspectors gained extensive access to monitor its compliance.