Suggested Reading for AZGF...

[Skjellyfetti]

T-man, you assume democracy and republic are mutually exclusive. While a republic isn't necessarily a democracy and a democracy isn't necessarily a republic... a republic CAN be (and usually is) a democracy.

Rome, like the US, was both a republic AND a democracy. Rome had elements that were even MORE Democratic than the United States... they had popular assemblies that passed laws through direct democracy. Their legislative branch had a Senate (not elected) and purely democratic assemblies.

[Chizzang]

Jeezus,
what a cluster fuck God I love this place - gets more entertaining every week..!!!

[travelinman67]

T-man, you assume democracy and republic are mutually exclusive. While a republic isn't necessarily a democracy and a democracy isn't necessarily a republic... a republic CAN be (and usually is) a democracy.

Rome, like the US, was both a republic AND a democracy. Rome had elements that were even MORE Democratic than the United States... they had popular assemblies that passed laws through direct democracy. Their legislative branch had a Senate (not elected) and purely democratic assemblies.

Within the context of my response to Hippie, your attempt to obfuscate the distinction between a Republic and Democratic form of government in no way refutes the fallacy of Hippies' assertion that people seek to live under a "class" structure, even when the government is a direct democracy: And then go on to cite examples of Republic governments. They are not synonymous.
Rome's Senate was an oligarchic body, whose principal function was in maintaining the facade of representation.

[Chizzang]

You're stepping outside the ring to dodge the punch, Hippie. The issue was Democracy, yet you cite a Republic as an example of a "peoples" voluntarily opting to (create) and live under a "class system".

As I KNOW YOU KNOW, a Republic is not equivalent to a Democracy. Merely classifying a govt. as a Republic because it's foundation incorporates SOME portion of public/popular control or influence, does not mitigate the possibility (probability) that an oligarchic core still controls the power (and thus, the power structure).

Acknowledging this fact, helps explain the majority of "problems" which arise within Democracies.

Kalm's recognition of an "innate" motivation of self governance, akin to man's "innate" need to evolve, is a succinct explanation (and astute understanding of) what AZ is attempting to articulate.

As much as you feel I and the conservatives "knee-jerk" conservatism philosophy, and consequently jade (pollute) our perception of politics, I believe your cynicism of man jades your ability to perceive the nobler "natural laws" which motivate man's actions. What concerns me, is that as well read as you are, I believe your cynicism derives more from popular media than historical analysis.

I was using Republic and Democracy as equivalents because AZGF has no idea what form of Government Rome or Greece or the Iroquois Confederacy used

second:
This debate isn't about "the problems that arise within a Democracy" it's about "imposing or giving away democracy" as a form of government to people who aren't asking for it...

third:
The ridiculous idea that we all - humans on earth - as we evolve, strive to build a democratic society as an innate response to cultural growth, particularly our American branded version of democracy is overt "American anthropomorphism"

Sure it's been successful for us and it's worked great for us... but that's where that whole things needs to stop and we need to actually look around

and fourth - your assertion that I'm cynical and responding to popular media...
I don't even have my TV plugged in and I don't read magazines... what popular media..?

I read more than the average America watches TV - and the average American watches 4 hours a day..! and I'm not reading "popular media"... it is far more likely that you are controlled by your preferred media delivery system than I... that I'm certain of

[Chizzang]

T-man, you assume democracy and republic are mutually exclusive. While a republic isn't necessarily a democracy and a democracy isn't necessarily a republic... a republic CAN be (and usually is) a democracy.

Rome, like the US, was both a republic AND a democracy. Rome had elements that were even MORE Democratic than the United States... they had popular assemblies that passed laws through direct democracy. Their legislative branch had a Senate (not elected) and purely democratic assemblies.

Within the context of my response to Hippie, your attempt to obfuscate the distinction between a Republic and Democratic form of government in no way refutes the fallacy of Hippies' assertion that people seek to live under a "class" structure, even when the government is a direct democracy: And then go on to cite examples of Republic governments. They are not synonymous.
Rome's Senate was an oligarchic body, whose principal function was in maintaining the facade of representation.

Hey slow-poke...
I was simply giving one (1) example (India) where a democracy of sorts was in place and yet people mostly peacefully opted to live under their own or self imposed class system... showing that even when people don't out and out revolt against their government they will sometimes still live in a system that reflects their ideology...

[Skjellyfetti]

Rome's Senate was an oligarchic body, whose principal function was in maintaining the facade of representation.

No crap... that's why I said "Senate (not elected)"... I never said the Roman Senate was democratic in any way. I said the assemblies were.

[travelinman67]

Within the context of my response to Hippie, your attempt to obfuscate the distinction between a Republic and Democratic form of government in no way refutes the fallacy of Hippies' assertion that people seek to live under a "class" structure, even when the government is a direct democracy: And then go on to cite examples of Republic governments. They are not synonymous.
Rome's Senate was an oligarchic body, whose principal function was in maintaining the facade of representation.

I was simply giving one (1) example (India) where a democracy of sorts was in place and yet people mostly peacefully opted to live under their own or self imposed class system... showing that even when people don't out and out revolt against their government they will sometimes still live in a system that reflects their ideology...

[youtube][/youtube]

[Chizzang]

I was simply giving one (1) example (India) where a democracy of sorts was in place and yet people mostly peacefully opted to live under their own or self imposed class system... showing that even when people don't out and out revolt against their government they will sometimes still live in a system that reflects their ideology...

[youtube][/youtube]

The trouble is you have No Point..?
I've made my point - HELL history proves my point over and over again

Can you name an example where the United States inserts a democracy where none existed before and it is still the existing political structure in place today...?

[native]

I'm pretty sure that AZ has read his fair share of Michener, so he's good to go

Michener was relatively liberal in his pseudo-historical depictions of America.

[native]

[youtube][/youtube]

The trouble is you have No Point..?
I've made my point - HELL history proves my point over and over again

Can you name an example where the United States inserts a democracy where none existed before and it is still the existing political structure in place today...?

The example that counts is the Philippines, which is a deeply flawed but nonetheless legitimate democracy. The most telling proof is in a vigorous free press with multiple points of view.

Your point is well taken, Cleets, but you dismiss too easily the eight million Iraqis who bravely stuck their fingers into indelible ink and voted.

[Chizzang]

The trouble is you have No Point..?
I've made my point - HELL history proves my point over and over again

Can you name an example where the United States inserts a democracy where none existed before and it is still the existing political structure in place today...?

The example that counts is the Philippines, which is a deeply flawed but nonetheless legitimate democracy. The most telling proof is in a vigorous free press with multiple points of view.

Your point is well taken, Cleets, but you dismiss too easily the eight million Iraqis who bravely stuck their fingers into indelible ink and voted.

and in 5 years will Iraq be a Democracy..?
and in 50 years what will it be

oh - and it's not a democracy yet

So the AZGF argument has one deeply flawed example - where as my point has 7,000 years of historical evidence behind it

[kalm]

The example that counts is the Philippines, which is a deeply flawed but nonetheless legitimate democracy. The most telling proof is in a vigorous free press with multiple points of view.

Your point is well taken, Cleets, but you dismiss too easily the eight million Iraqis who bravely stuck their fingers into indelible ink and voted.

and in 5 years will Iraq be a Democracy..?
and in 50 years what will it be

oh - and it's not a democracy yet

So the AZGF argument has one deeply flawed example - where as my point has 7,000 years of historical evidence behind it

Name me one example of an educated nation where men and women have equal rights that has chosen anything but democracy.

[Grizalltheway]

I'm pretty sure that AZ has read his fair share of Michener, so he's good to go

Michener was relatively liberal in his pseudo-historical depictions of America.

And you're incapable of detecting any sort of sarcasm.

[Chizzang]

and in 5 years will Iraq be a Democracy..?
and in 50 years what will it be

oh - and it's not a democracy yet

So the AZGF argument has one deeply flawed example - where as my point has 7,000 years of historical evidence behind it

Name me one example of an educated nation where men and women have equal rights that has chosen anything but democracy.

Not everybody believes in "equal rights"
in fact Equal Rights is as ancient as "Democracy and republic" and hasn't exactly cought on like wild fire or anything... it's a rare belief

I would argue that fewer humans feel that equal rights are important than the notion of a Republic or a democracy...

[kalm]

Name me one example of an educated nation where men and women have equal rights that has chosen anything but democracy.

Not everybody believes in "equal rights"
in fact Equal Rights is as ancient as "Democracy and republic" and hasn't exactly cought on like wild fire or anything... it's a rare belief

I would argue that fewer humans feel that equal rights are important than the notion of a Republic or a democracy...

The only people who don't believe in equal rights are those who have more. And they are a minority.

[Chizzang]

Not everybody believes in "equal rights"
in fact Equal Rights is as ancient as "Democracy and republic" and hasn't exactly cought on like wild fire or anything... it's a rare belief

I would argue that fewer humans feel that equal rights are important than the notion of a Republic or a democracy...

The only people who don't believe in equal rights are those who have more. And they are a minority.

Really.. Perhaps
Ask a gay man how he feels about Equal Rights in America..?

Equal Rights as in 100% EQUAL all the way around - is an extremely rare belief - most people think they believe in it, very few actually do

In America we talk a lot about EQUAL RIGHTs almost as much as we talk about Democracy - but we just can't seem to come completely clean on it when you get right down to it...

Equal Rights is just another example of where Americans talk a good game
but then when you actually examine our history it just doesn't add up

[kalm]

Now you're just making perfect an enemy of the good.

[Skjellyfetti]

Name me one example of an educated nation where men and women have equal rights that has chosen anything but democracy.

Germany... Weimar Republic > Third Reich.

[Chizzang]

Now you're just making perfect an enemy of the good.

Yes,
But that's my point precisely - when you fall below your own mark how can you dare to presume you know whats best for everybody else...

We're a whopping 50 years past routine rioting in the streets over racial tension
We're 40 years past Vietnam
We're actively engaged in a stupidity so profound in Iraq words do it no justice
We have the dumbest fattest children of all industrialized nations

I could go on for about a 1/2 hour - it's ridiculous

And yet none of the above is so much as even cause for a pause when it comes to telling the rest of the planet "how everything is supposed to be" and "What's best for everybody else" when I would much prefer we reach our own goals - meet our own expectations before deciding instantly that what others have decided for themselves is "not right"

We do not lead by example... we lead by force - and that's sad

Oh hurry Que up AZGF insta-reply for all statements about America that are not Flag wrapping blow jobs of Captain Fantastic...

AZGF: Yeah well there's a line to get into America

Yeah: Well there's a line at McDonalds too

[native]

Name me one example of an educated nation where men and women have equal rights that has chosen anything but democracy.

Germany... Weimar Republic > Third Reich.

Geez I hate to agree with jellybelly but he is exactly right.

AND very courageous for bringing it up since his own ilk are leading us down the path to Weimar!

[native]

The only people who don't believe in equal rights are those who have more. And they are a minority.

Really.. Perhaps
Ask a gay man how he feels about Equal Rights in America..?

Equal Rights as in 100% EQUAL all the way around - is an extremely rare belief - most people think they believe in it, very few actually do

In America we talk a lot about EQUAL RIGHTs almost as much as we talk about Democracy - but we just can't seem to come completely clean on it when you get right down to it...

Equal Rights is just another example of where Americans talk a good game
but then when you actually examine our history it just doesn't add up

Some of us draw the line at NAMBLA.

[Skjellyfetti]

AND very courageous for bringing it up since his own ilk are leading us down the path to Weimar!

If you mean the Weimar Republic was thrown into a nearly impossible situation economically by its predecessor, I agree with you completely.

[native]

The example that counts is the Philippines, which is a deeply flawed but nonetheless legitimate democracy. The most telling proof is in a vigorous free press with multiple points of view.

Your point is well taken, Cleets, but you dismiss too easily the eight million Iraqis who bravely stuck their fingers into indelible ink and voted.

and in 5 years will Iraq be a Democracy..?
and in 50 years what will it be

oh - and it's not a democracy yet

So the AZGF argument has one deeply flawed example - where as my point has 7,000 years of historical evidence behind it

Maybe so, maybe not... but you consistently overlook those souls in authoritarian societies for whom democratic aspirations are stifled - often at the cost of their lives. I give a shit for those people.

[native]

AND very courageous for bringing it up since his own ilk are leading us down the path to Weimar!

If you mean the Weimar Republic was thrown into an nearly impossible situation economically by its predecessor, I agree with you completely.

GW did his share, but his contribution is small in comparison to Obama's. It took thousands of politicians and other elitist oligarchs of both parties along to put us in our current dire situation.

[native]

Now you're just making perfect an enemy of the good.

Yes,
But that's my point precisely - when you fall below your own mark how can you dare to presume you know whats best for everybody else...

We're a whopping 50 years past routine rioting in the streets over racial tension
We're 40 years past Vietnam
We're actively engaged in a stupidity so profound in Iraq words do it no justice
We have the dumbest fattest children of all industrialized nations

I could go on for about a 1/2 hour - it's ridiculous

And yet none of the above is so much as even cause for a pause when it comes to telling the rest of the planet "how everything is supposed to be" and "What's best for everybody else" when I would much prefer we reach our own goals - meet our own expectations before deciding instantly that what others have decided for themselves is "not right"

We do not lead by example... we lead by force - and that's sad

Oh hurry Que up AZGF insta-reply for all statements about America that are not Flag wrapping blow jobs of Captain Fantastic...

AZGF: Yeah well there's a line to get into America

Yeah: Well there's a line at McDonalds too

The ONE THING Joe Biden may have been right about was that we should have carved Irag up into three different countries and let each govern itself.