Angle:No Abortions For Rape/Incest Victims...God Has A Plan

[Chizzang]

Exactly...
By our actions or in direct consequence of our actions innocent lives are taken routinely - and then - referenced as appropriate collateral damage considering the entire situation

Therefore: I give you abortion in a free country

The consequences of and thereby rightly considered "collateral damage" of Freedom - just like Iraqi lives

a "one-to-one" correlation

If you start with the premise that the war was necessary and was our only option in dealing with the situation (never mind whether or not that's true, just humor it), then that is a totally different situation. The vast majority of abortions are not needed to save the life of the mother and the baby. On top of that, killing Iraqi civilians is accidental and is not what the military goes out to accomplish. Abortion is fully intentional. Would you call those pro-life folks that would say WWII was a necessary war hypocritical? Sorry Chizzy, but that comparison is bunk.

It's conceptual...
We kill all the time - it's what we do as humans, it's perfectly normal - happens every single day
10,000 years of history show us this (over and over and over)

So my point (keeping that in mind)
I'm told by the likes of you that collateral damage is an acceptable loss of life = And that's because it's not your life, or your mom or your sister - yet abortion is an abomination of gods children and completely unacceptable

Why do we value some lives more than others..?
Why are some passages of the bible ignored regularly by Christians and others "So Sacred"
Why are humans so inconsistent about what matters and what doesn't matter..?

Frankly I'm tired of being told who's life counts and who's life doesn't - who's life matters and who's life is okay to be extinguished by our own course of action... Abortion / war / Death Penalty / Murder

Honestly... we're all completely full of sh!t

We're killers - we kill regularly and routinely - that's how we're made, it's part of what we do... and we, generally speaking, as a race do not value life (Sure we say we do) but by our course of action day-in-and-day-out we kill or allow killing accept killing and observe killing... yet sanctimoniously and self righteously pick and choose what killings we're oaky with on some kind of shifting scale of moral convenience..

so go blow smoke and sanctity up your own ass... and spare mine the tickle

[89Hen]

But my lack of opportunity in this arena doesn't give me the right to impose upon others who, let's face it, aren't known for their good decisions (outside of rape & incest I mean). Hence the reason they even have the choice to beging with, so why force them to procreate & perpetuate this cycle? Adoption you say? When all the unwanted baby's in this world have been adopted, then we can start legislating more upon the current population. If God didn't want abortion, he wouldn't "bless" persons who don't want children with pregnancies. If God has a master plan & we are witnessing the results of this plan,,,,well, he's been given more credit than due.....

An odd turn you're taking. Adoption, God's plan... not sure what either has to do with this. As for your right to impose upon others... you're down the same road as before. Do you think murder is a personal choice? Pro-choice folks skip that part.

[Appaholic]

But my lack of opportunity in this arena doesn't give me the right to impose upon others who, let's face it, aren't known for their good decisions (outside of rape & incest I mean). Hence the reason they even have the choice to beging with, so why force them to procreate & perpetuate this cycle? Adoption you say? When all the unwanted baby's in this world have been adopted, then we can start legislating more upon the current population. If God didn't want abortion, he wouldn't "bless" persons who don't want children with pregnancies. If God has a master plan & we are witnessing the results of this plan,,,,well, he's been given more credit than due.....

An odd turn you're taking. Adoption, God's plan... not sure what either has to do with this. As for your right to impose upon others... you're down the same road as before. Do you think murder is a personal choice? Pro-choice folks skip that part.

And around the circle we go....it's state-sanctioned "murder" the same way war is....don't agree with neither, but don't prosecute the mother if you're not willing to prosecute the soldier...or accept both as a necessary by-product of "freedom" within our society....

[Col Hogan]

An odd turn you're taking. Adoption, God's plan... not sure what either has to do with this. As for your right to impose upon others... you're down the same road as before. Do you think murder is a personal choice? Pro-choice folks skip that part.

And around the circle we go....it's state-sanctioned "murder" the same way war is....don't agree with neither, but don't prosecute the mother if you're not willing to prosecute the soldier...or accept both as a necessary by-product of "freedom" within our society....

Intent, my friend...INTENT...

I know of no soldier who goes out in the moring with the INTENT to kill a child...

Anyone involved in an abortion has a SPECIFIC INTENT to kill a child...

[89Hen]

And around the circle we go....it's state-sanctioned "murder" the same way war is....don't agree with neither, but don't prosecute the mother if you're not willing to prosecute the soldier...or accept both as a necessary by-product of "freedom" within our society....

Not even close to a real point. You keep trying to drag in other arguements... God's will, adoption, now war... let's stay on one debate.

[mainejeff]

I wish that the Religious Right valued humans outside the womb as much as they do the ones inside the womb.

[GSUhooligan]

I wish that the Religious Right valued humans outside the womb as much as they do the ones inside the womb.

I don't understand how its infringing on rights. No one is saying you can't have sex, but there are consequences to your choice to do so.

[Appaholic]

And around the circle we go....it's state-sanctioned "murder" the same way war is....don't agree with neither, but don't prosecute the mother if you're not willing to prosecute the soldier...or accept both as a necessary by-product of "freedom" within our society....

Intent, my friend...INTENT...

I know of no soldier who goes out in the moring with the INTENT to kill a child...

Anyone involved in an abortion has a SPECIFIC INTENT to kill a child...

So marching into a foreign country with a weapon & body armor uninvited is not "intent"? What are they "intending" to do with the M16, grenades, etc....

[Appaholic]

I wish that the Religious Right valued humans outside the womb as much as they do the ones inside the womb.

I don't understand how its infringing on rights. No one is saying you can't have sex, but there are consequences to your choice to do so.

So, "God's gift" is now a "consequence"? Why not call it a "mistake" & get it over with already.....

[89Hen]

So marching into a foreign country with a weapon & body armor uninvited is not "intent"? What are they "intending" to do with the M16, grenades, etc....

Smoke screen.

[Appaholic]

And around the circle we go....it's state-sanctioned "murder" the same way war is....don't agree with neither, but don't prosecute the mother if you're not willing to prosecute the soldier...or accept both as a necessary by-product of "freedom" within our society....

Not even close to a real point. You keep trying to drag in other arguements... God's will, adoption, now war... let's stay on one debate.

Wrong again '89. Just showing how easy it is to "rationalize" the abortion choice by using the same rationale for choosing war or "god's will" to support your argument against this loss of life....

[Appaholic]

So marching into a foreign country with a weapon & body armor uninvited is not "intent"? What are they "intending" to do with the M16, grenades, etc....

Smoke screen.

Just because it blows a hole in your irrational theory by using your same arguments to support another method of lost life does not make it a smoke screen....good attempt at deflecting truth, Rummy....

[89Hen]

Not even close to a real point. You keep trying to drag in other arguements... God's will, adoption, now war... let's stay on one debate.

Wrong again '89. Just showing how easy it is to "rationalize" the abortion choice by using the same rationale for choosing war or "god's will" to support your argument against this loss of life....

Bullshit. By your "rationalization" you could give the death penalty to an infant out of the womb.

[89Hen]

Just because it blows a hole in your irrational theory by using your same arguments to support another method of lost life does not make it a smoke screen....good attempt at deflecting truth, Rummy....

YOU'RE the one deflecting. I want to talk about abortion. You're the one who wants to bring in God's will, adoption, war... anything that will detract from the fact that you think killing a baby the day before birth isn't murder, but the day after is. If you thought killing a baby the day before birth were murder, you cannot be pro-choice.

[Appaholic]

Wrong again '89. Just showing how easy it is to "rationalize" the abortion choice by using the same rationale for choosing war or "god's will" to support your argument against this loss of life....

Bullshit. By your "rationalization" you could give the death penalty to an infant out of the womb.

It's a person isn't it? Why wouldn't it be accountable to laws?

[89Hen]

Bullshit. By your "rationalization" you could give the death penalty to an infant out of the womb.

It's a person isn't it? Why wouldn't it be accountable to laws?

Ah, so you're OK with the death pentaly for infants. Gotcha.

[Appaholic]

Just because it blows a hole in your irrational theory by using your same arguments to support another method of lost life does not make it a smoke screen....good attempt at deflecting truth, Rummy....

YOU'RE the one deflecting. I want to talk about abortion. You're the one who wants to bring in God's will, adoption, war... anything that will detract from the fact that you think killing a baby the day before birth isn't murder, but the day after is. If you thought killing a baby the day before birth were murder, you cannot be pro-choice.

Murder....blah,blah,blah....intent...blah,blah,blah....day b4, day after...blah,blah,blah....we're going in circles...I agree it's a tragic loss of a potential life, but it's not a murder. Why? Because the law says so currently. Got to get back to work...(now where did I put that coathanger?... )

[89Hen]

Murder....blah,blah,blah....intent...blah,blah,blah....day b4, day after...blah,blah,blah....we're going in circles...I agree it's a tragic loss of a potential life, but it's not a murder. Why? Because the law says so currently. Got to get back to work...(now where did I put that coathanger?... )

Not really circles anymore. You don't think killing a baby the day before it's born is murder, I do, so that ends the conversation for us.

[Chizzang]

It's all killing - all of it...



And this whole thing is mostly bullsh!t in light of human history...
We pick and choose what offends us - and - what is acceptable when it comes to killing

sanctimonious sliding scale morality bullsh!t the lot of it...

[polsongrizz]

How about we just let each woman make the choice for herself?

How about we don't kill innocent life?

There is no such thing as innocent life. And no babies are not innocent either, hence Baptizing them for their sins.

[Chizzang]

I'm catching a distinct odor.. from this thread

[JohnStOnge]

I agree it's a tragic loss of a potential life

That hits upon one of the most important aspects of this debate. The idea that we are talking about a "potental" life is objectively false.

It is not a "potential" life. It is a life. It is a member of our species whose existence has already been established. When a woman has an abortion she is having something killed. She is not killing something that is a "potential" life. She is killing a living, individual organism. That organism is Homo sapiens.

That "potential life" thing is one of the biggest crocks in history.

[Chizzang]

I agree it's a tragic loss of a potential life

That hits upon one of the most important aspects of this debate. The idea that we are talking about a "potental" life is objectively false.

It is not a "potential" life. It is a life. It is a member of our species whose existence has already been established. When a woman has an abortion she is having something killed. She is not killing something that is a "potential" life. She is killing a living, individual organism. That organism is Homo sapiens.

That "potential life" thing is one of the biggest crocks in history.

AND...
It happens every day - when men have an abortion we call it War - so it doesn't count



sifting through the moral high ground.. until we find something we like

[Pwns]

It's conceptual...
We kill all the time - it's what we do as humans, it's perfectly normal - happens every single day
10,000 years of history show us this (over and over and over)

So my point (keeping that in mind)
I'm told by the likes of you that collateral damage is an acceptable loss of life = And that's because it's not your life, or your mom or your sister - yet abortion is an abomination of gods children and completely unacceptable .

I don't know where you see valuing one life more than another in what I wrote. There is no comparing collateral damage in a war like WWII to the death of an unborn baby in a completely elective abortion. That's like comparing someone who kills their child because that child is an inconvenience to someone who kills their child to save a train full of people.

By the way, Cleets, I'm generally anti-war (including the Iraq war) and I am anti-death penalty to boot.

[Appaholic]

That hits upon one of the most important aspects of this debate. The idea that we are talking about a "potental" life is objectively false.

It is not a "potential" life. It is a life. It is a member of our species whose existence has already been established. When a woman has an abortion she is having something killed. She is not killing something that is a "potential" life. She is killing a living, individual organism. That organism is Homo sapiens.

That "potential life" thing is one of the biggest crocks in history.

AND...
It happens every day - when men have an abortion we call it War - so it doesn't count



sifting through the moral high ground.. until we find something we like

Agree. We cry for potential life snuffed in the womb while demanding the blood of our enemies & those who have inflicted harm upon us or step over a broken life on our way to church....oh, the irony...