anybody wanna tackle this?

[native]

"Respected?" No.

Entertaining? No.

The multiple personalities of Catamount Man are more entertaining.

The irrational exuberance and unpredictablility of cleets is more entertaining.

Appaholic's provocative shots across the bow are more entertaining.

You can kiss my ass you homophobic, homicidal mormon whackjob conk piece of ****. Ididn't even realize you were still posting here. Why don't you scurry on out of here and shoot some mexicans and niggers, and let Z and I continue our profound discussion on poverty.

Take your meds. ...ALL of them, with a quart of everclear!

You are (ho-hum) wrong. Z's life style does not require others to live in poverty. Only your solutions require poverty.

[D1B]

You can kiss my ass you homophobic, homicidal mormon whackjob conk piece of ****. Ididn't even realize you were still posting here. Why don't you scurry on out of here and shoot some mexicans and niggers, and let Z and I continue our profound discussion on poverty.

Take your meds. ...ALL of them, with a quart of everclear!

You are (ho-hum) wrong. Z's life style does not require poverty. Only your solutions require poverty.

Native, elaborate please. I'll be waiting.

[native]

Take your meds. ...ALL of them, with a quart of everclear!

You are (ho-hum) wrong. Z's life style does not require poverty. Only your solutions require poverty.

Native, elaborate please. I'll be waiting.

Nobody forces people to have more babies than they can afford, D.

[D1B]

You can kiss my ass you homophobic, homicidal mormon whackjob conk piece of ****. Ididn't even realize you were still posting here. Why don't you scurry on out of here and shoot some mexicans and niggers, and let Z and I continue our profound discussion on poverty.

Take your meds. ...ALL of them, with a quart of everclear!

You are (ho-hum) wrong. Z's life style does not require others to live in poverty. Only your solutions require poverty.

I aint offering solutions, really. I agree with Z, some people will always be poor.

[Grizalltheway]

native: In 2007, before The Great Evil Commie took office, 37 million Americans lived below the poverty line. And not all of them were lazy layabouts who've never worked a day in their lives, like you and Z would lead us to believe.

[D1B]

Native, elaborate please. I'll be waiting.

Nobody forces people to have more babies than they can afford, D.

This is it?

[D1B]

native: In 2007, before The Great Evil Commie took office, 37 million Americans lived below the poverty line. And not all of them were lazy layabouts who've never worked a day in their lives, like you and Z would lead us to believe.

I'll bet a large % of em were the tea baggin, gun collectin, racist fuckwads like Native.

[ASUG8]

native: In 2007, before The Great Evil Commie took office, 37 million Americans lived below the poverty line. And not all of them were lazy layabouts who've never worked a day in their lives, like you and Z would lead us to believe.

You're absolutely right - there are disabled folks and old folks and others who have fallen through the cracks and legitimately deserve help from all of us. It's the whole "bad apple" conundrum that makes many of us so pissed off at the abuses and lack of controls on the system. Of the 37 million you mention, what percentage would you guess are abusers of the system or products of the system (i.e. their parent(s) were welfare recipients and they were welfare babies)? I hate to be a pessimist, but I bet it's a much larger percentage than you think. All it takes is a drive around to see the able bodied folks sitting on porches, walking the streets, or just hanging out doing nothing to reaffirm that a large portion of the poor have inflicted it upon themselves through inaction to better themselves.

[D1B]

native: In 2007, before The Great Evil Commie took office, 37 million Americans lived below the poverty line. And not all of them were lazy layabouts who've never worked a day in their lives, like you and Z would lead us to believe.

You're absolutely right - there are disabled folks and old folks and others who have fallen through the cracks and legitimately deserve help from all of us. It's the whole "bad apple" conundrum that makes many of us so pissed off at the abuses and lack of controls on the system. Of the 37 million you mention, what percentage would you guess are abusers of the system or products of the system (i.e. their parent(s) were welfare recipients and they were welfare babies)? I hate to be a pessimist, but I bet it's a much larger percentage than you think. All it takes is a drive around to see the able bodied folks sitting on porches, walking the streets, or just hanging out doing nothing to reaffirm that a large portion of the poor have inflicted it upon themselves through inaction to better themselves.

Good post. What do you think the percentage of lazy asses is? I think its much smaller than you think.

Poverty is not fun.

[ASUG8]

You're absolutely right - there are disabled folks and old folks and others who have fallen through the cracks and legitimately deserve help from all of us. It's the whole "bad apple" conundrum that makes many of us so pissed off at the abuses and lack of controls on the system. Of the 37 million you mention, what percentage would you guess are abusers of the system or products of the system (i.e. their parent(s) were welfare recipients and they were welfare babies)? I hate to be a pessimist, but I bet it's a much larger percentage than you think. All it takes is a drive around to see the able bodied folks sitting on porches, walking the streets, or just hanging out doing nothing to reaffirm that a large portion of the poor have inflicted it upon themselves through inaction to better themselves.

Good post. What do you think the percentage of lazy asses is? I think its much smaller than you think.

Poverty is not fun.

Fortunately I haven't had to experience poverty in my life, and I'm certain that it sucks. Apparently for a lot of people it doesn't suck enough to take some personal responsibility and stop using your uterus like a clown car and finish high school. It's ridiculous that being smart in the black community gets you labeled as a sellout - it's a vicious cycle unfortunately, and one that is very difficult to escape without using some intestinal fortitude and doing what's best for you instead of conforming to the limitations that those around you place on you.

[native]

native: In 2007, before The Great Evil Commie took office, 37 million Americans lived below the poverty line. And not all of them were lazy layabouts who've never worked a day in their lives, like you and Z would lead us to believe.

Grizz-the-hallway: With very few exceptions, the only truly impoverished citizens who live in the U.S. are the 50% or so of homeless people who also have serious mental problems, and the children who are victims of criminally negligent parent(s).

Sure, there are exceptions, but not 37 million of them. Maybe a tenth of that. Maybe less. These exceptions can be handled without the ridiculous solutions you and d1b embrace so fervently: the enlargement of the government, destruction of the "burgeoise" and communization of society.

[D1B]

Good post. What do you think the percentage of lazy asses is? I think its much smaller than you think.

Poverty is not fun.

Fortunately I haven't had to experience poverty in my life, and I'm certain that it sucks. Apparently for a lot of people it doesn't suck enough to take some personal responsibility and stop using your uterus like a clown car and finish high school. It's ridiculous that being smart in the black community gets you labeled as a sellout - it's a vicious cycle unfortunately, and one that is very difficult to escape without using some intestinal fortitude and doing what's best for you instead of conforming to the limitations that those around you place on you.

Contrary to what Ron Reagan and the neocons would have you believe, the pregnant black teen with 6 kids is a small percentage of the poor on welfare. While you're worried about her and the $115.25 check she gets every month, these fucks are looting the national treasury by the trillion through Wall Street scams, defense spending, wars and corporate welfare.

It aint easy to get welfare either, unless you are an oil company or need help outsourcing all your jobs to India or China. Alot of shit has changed, for the better, thanks to Bill Clinton and Tommy Thompson.

I do though agree that the black community is fucked, some, not all, is their fault. We've essentially killed the black male in America through demonization and incarceration. This has been disastrous to their race. Many women get caught holding the bag (children).

[ASUG8]

Fortunately I haven't had to experience poverty in my life, and I'm certain that it sucks. Apparently for a lot of people it doesn't suck enough to take some personal responsibility and stop using your uterus like a clown car and finish high school. It's ridiculous that being smart in the black community gets you labeled as a sellout - it's a vicious cycle unfortunately, and one that is very difficult to escape without using some intestinal fortitude and doing what's best for you instead of conforming to the limitations that those around you place on you.

Contrary to what Ron Reagan and the neocons would have you believe, the pregnant black teen with 6 kids is a small percentage of the poor on welfare. While you're worried about her and the $115.25 check she gets every month, these fucks are looting the national treasury by the trillion through Wall Street scams, defense spending, wars and corporate welfare.

It aint easy to get welfare either, unless you are an oil company or need help outsourcing all your jobs to India or China. Alot of shit has changed, for the better, thanks to Bill Clinton and Tommy Thompson.

I do though agree that the black community is fucked, some, not all, is their fault. We've essentially killed the black male in America through demonization and incarceration. This has been disastrous to their race. Many women get caught holding the bag (children).

Oddly, I agree with most of what you wrote. I still don't get the underlying incentive to continue being poor or at least to become less poor. I don't think I'm disclosing any state secrets here, but I think the following apply:

* Finishing high school or getting your GED open up new worlds of opportunity for you
* Kids are expensive and disruptive to accomplishing your goals when they arrive early and often in your life
* If you see people go to jail for drugs, prostitution, robbery, or various other crimes there's a way to stay out of jail - pay attention to the lesson in front of you and don't put yourself in situations that would land you in jail.
* If you knock somebody up, be a man and take responsibility
* If you let others tell you how good you can be you are destined to rise only to that level

To me it's all about personal responsibility, whether it's from living within your means, bettering yourself through education, staying out of trouble if possible, and avoiding contributing to the welfare state by only using it if as a last resort. Welfare wasn't intended to be a way of life, but rather a band aid for a difficult period in your life - too bad FDR's good intentions to get us out of the depression turned many people to live off the teat full time.

[native]

Take your meds. ...ALL of them, with a quart of everclear!

You are (ho-hum) wrong. Z's life style does not require others to live in poverty. Only your solutions require poverty.

I aint offering solutions, really. I agree with Z, some people will always be poor.

OK then. Stop blaming me and Z for 'em.

[native]

... I still don't get the underlying incentive to continue being poor or at least to become less poor. I don't think I'm disclosing any state secrets here, but I think the following apply:

* Finishing high school or getting your GED open up new worlds of opportunity for you
* Kids are expensive and disruptive to accomplishing your goals when they arrive early and often in your life
* If you see people go to jail for drugs, prostitution, robbery, or various other crimes there's a way to stay out of jail - pay attention to the lesson in front of you and don't put yourself in situations that would land you in jail.
* If you knock somebody up, be a man and take responsibility
* If you let others tell you how good you can be you are destined to rise only to that level

To me it's all about personal responsibility, whether it's from living within your means, bettering yourself through education, staying out of trouble if possible, and avoiding contributing to the welfare state by only using it if as a last resort. Welfare wasn't intended to be a way of life, but rather a band aid for a difficult period in your life - too bad FDR's good intentions to get us out of the depression turned many people to live off the teat full time.

[D1B]

Contrary to what Ron Reagan and the neocons would have you believe, the pregnant black teen with 6 kids is a small percentage of the poor on welfare. While you're worried about her and the $115.25 check she gets every month, these fucks are looting the national treasury by the trillion through Wall Street scams, defense spending, wars and corporate welfare.

It aint easy to get welfare either, unless you are an oil company or need help outsourcing all your jobs to India or China. Alot of shit has changed, for the better, thanks to Bill Clinton and Tommy Thompson.

I do though agree that the black community is fucked, some, not all, is their fault. We've essentially killed the black male in America through demonization and incarceration. This has been disastrous to their race. Many women get caught holding the bag (children).

Oddly, I agree with most of what you wrote. I still don't get the underlying incentive to continue being poor or at least to become less poor. I don't think I'm disclosing any state secrets here, but I think the following apply:

* Finishing high school or getting your GED open up new worlds of opportunity for you
* Kids are expensive and disruptive to accomplishing your goals when they arrive early and often in your life
* If you see people go to jail for drugs, prostitution, robbery, or various other crimes there's a way to stay out of jail - pay attention to the lesson in front of you and don't put yourself in situations that would land you in jail.
* If you knock somebody up, be a man and take responsibility
* If you let others tell you how good you can be you are destined to rise only to that level

To me it's all about personal responsibility, whether it's from living within your means, bettering yourself through education, staying out of trouble if possible, and avoiding contributing to the welfare state by only using it if as a last resort. Welfare wasn't intended to be a way of life, but rather a band aid for a difficult period in your life - too bad FDR's good intentions to get us out of the depression turned many people to live off the teat full time.

It's not odd. Look underneath the subterfuge and you will find me to be the most intelligent, courageous and honest person in the history of man.

Anyway, yeah right on. In an ideal world your points above would be followed by all.

You, I and Z are very priviledged indeed. God bless our fathers and mothers and those before them who created the wealth that allowed us to attend college and learn good values and work ethic in safe and secure households. Not everyone had or have this blessing.

[D1B]

... I still don't get the underlying incentive to continue being poor or at least to become less poor. I don't think I'm disclosing any state secrets here, but I think the following apply:

* Finishing high school or getting your GED open up new worlds of opportunity for you
* Kids are expensive and disruptive to accomplishing your goals when they arrive early and often in your life
* If you see people go to jail for drugs, prostitution, robbery, or various other crimes there's a way to stay out of jail - pay attention to the lesson in front of you and don't put yourself in situations that would land you in jail.
* If you knock somebody up, be a man and take responsibility
* If you let others tell you how good you can be you are destined to rise only to that level

To me it's all about personal responsibility, whether it's from living within your means, bettering yourself through education, staying out of trouble if possible, and avoiding contributing to the welfare state by only using it if as a last resort. Welfare wasn't intended to be a way of life, but rather a band aid for a difficult period in your life - too bad FDR's good intentions to get us out of the depression turned many people to live off the teat full time.

Absolutely Naive. Still waiting for your elaboration.

[D1B]

I aint offering solutions, really. I agree with Z, some people will always be poor.

OK then. Stop blaming me and Z for 'em.

Naive, you are huge part of the problem. You victimize and demonize the poor, yet look away while your party allows our national wealth to be stolen and or squandered in wars and Wall Street theft. Fuck you, why don't you go after the real welfare whores an thieves instead of demonizing poor women and children?

Fucking asshole.


You're one of the christians too.

[native]

...Your (conk) solution is to kill them....

FALSE.

...My (donk) solution is to make a reasonable effort to help them....

"Reasonable?"

...YOUR quality of life ultimately requires that many live in poverty ...

Arguing with D =

[houndawg]

Native, elaborate please. I'll be waiting.

Nobody forces people to have more babies than they can afford, D.

You keep ignoring the elephant in the room, nasal. There are more people than jobs. When there are enough jobs to go around then I'll help you call non-working poor folk lazy.

[Baldy]

Just a couple of questions, J.

Can you name me just one society that doesn't (for lack of a better term) run off "greed". Oh and BTW, it's always the other guy who is the greedy one, not me.

If you have a better idea, please let us know, but is there a society in human history which has done more to lift the ordinary man out of grinding poverty than a free market capitalistic society?
On top of that, look around and research...the people in the world who have been the worst off over the past 100+ years are the societies who depart from that philosophy.

Agree to a point Baldy, but America has not practiced "free market capitalism" since the turn of the century. And, if you do your research you'll find those days and before to be especially horrible for a majority of us, just ask the slaves. Also, just because the poor cannot be seen, doesnt' mean FMC doesnt create masses of poor, it has, just not in our back yard and front porch till now. FMC nations, led by the United States have built their empires on the backs of the poor and exploited since day one - black slaves, white indentured servants, asian child labor across the globe, chinese railroad slaves, third world nations, poor middle east/oil rich nations, women, children during the industrial revolution........ It's only been in the last 50 or 60 years (were we have a hybrid government/economic system) that we've seen the rise of a middle class and an increase in the quality of life for more than just the wealthy.

FMC had many good qualities, but it also has limits. We're rapidly approaching the point where it's consuming itself and collapsing. As DD and I have mentioned, we're seeing this happen right before our eyes.

In a nutshell....

Nobody has said that FMC is perfect. There isn't an economic system that is or ever will be (sorry, "progressives"), but it is the best one we have and probably ever will.

Please don't make the mistake and believe that slavery or indentured servitude was or is a component of free market capitalism. Using slavery or serfdom is rigging the game. To have true FMC, there needs to be a vibrant, diverse, competitive, and mobile labor market.

You seem to under the false assumption that free market capitalism is a zero sum game. For every winner there isn't a loser, everybody can and usually does mutually benefit if given the chance and opportunity. Sometimes you win more than the other guy, but the next time the roles might reverse.

A hybrid government and economic system is what creates bubble economies. You have the government either propping up the market or depressing the market artificially. In order for FMC to work like it's supposed to, there needs to be a NATURAL equilibrium. Markets are perfect, they will correct themselves very quickly. The only thing government intervention does is slow productivity and growth (TARP, bailouts, etc), and makes it much more difficult for the market to find it's equilibrium.

[AZGrizFan]

You, I and Z are very priviledged indeed. God bless our fathers and mothers and those before them who created the wealth that allowed us to attend college and learn good values and work ethic in safe and secure households. Not everyone had or have this blessing.

There was no wealth in my family. I was the 9th of 10 kids. Not ONE of us was put through college by our parents. The only thing we got from our parents was a strong work ethic, character and integrity.

AFTER leaving home (without exception) 4 of the 10 siblings have obtained bachelors degrees (paid for by themselves) and 2 of those four have obtained advanced degrees (again, paid for by themselves).

I agree, not everyone has that blessing, but it's still an excuse or a crutch for someone when they turn out to be a rotten apple.

[native]

Nobody forces people to have more babies than they can afford, D.

You keep ignoring the elephant in the room, nasal. There are more people than jobs. When there are enough jobs to go around then I'll help you call non-working poor folk lazy.

There are more people than jobs ONLY because the government places artificial, unnecessary and counterproductive restrictions on labor and capital.

The "elephant in the room" is "progressive" big government.

[D1B]

Agree to a point Baldy, but America has not practiced "free market capitalism" since the turn of the century. And, if you do your research you'll find those days and before to be especially horrible for a majority of us, just ask the slaves. Also, just because the poor cannot be seen, doesnt' mean FMC doesnt create masses of poor, it has, just not in our back yard and front porch till now. FMC nations, led by the United States have built their empires on the backs of the poor and exploited since day one - black slaves, white indentured servants, asian child labor across the globe, chinese railroad slaves, third world nations, poor middle east/oil rich nations, women, children during the industrial revolution........ It's only been in the last 50 or 60 years (were we have a hybrid government/economic system) that we've seen the rise of a middle class and an increase in the quality of life for more than just the wealthy.

FMC had many good qualities, but it also has limits. We're rapidly approaching the point where it's consuming itself and collapsing. As DD and I have mentioned, we're seeing this happen right before our eyes.

In a nutshell....

Nobody has said that FMC is perfect. There isn't an economic system that is or ever will be (sorry, "progressives"), but it is the best one we have and probably ever will.

Please don't make the mistake and believe that slavery or indentured servitude was or is a component of free market capitalism. Using slavery or serfdom is rigging the game. To have true FMC, there needs to be a vibrant, diverse, competitive, and mobile labor market.

You seem to under the false assumption that free market capitalism is a zero sum game. For every winner there isn't a loser, everybody can and usually does mutually benefit if given the chance and opportunity. Sometimes you win more than the other guy, but the next time the roles might reverse.

A hybrid government and economic system is what creates bubble economies. You have the government either propping up the market or depressing the market artificially. In order for FMC to work like it's supposed to, there needs to be a NATURAL equilibrium. Markets are perfect, they will correct themselves very quickly. The only thing government intervention does is slow productivity and growth (TARP, bailouts, etc), and makes it much more difficult for the market to find it's equilibrium.

Baldy, markets may be perfect, but people aint. I do agree with much of what you say, but some of it applies only in fantasyland.

[D1B]

You, I and Z are very priviledged indeed. God bless our fathers and mothers and those before them who created the wealth that allowed us to attend college and learn good values and work ethic in safe and secure households. Not everyone had or have this blessing.

There was no wealth in my family. I was the 9th of 10 kids. Not ONE of us was put through college by our parents. The only thing we got from our parents was a strong work ethic, character and integrity.

AFTER leaving home (without exception) 4 of the 10 siblings have obtained bachelors degrees (paid for by themselves) and 2 of those four have obtained advanced degrees (again, paid for by themselves).

I agree, not everyone has that blessing, but it's still an excuse or a crutch for someone when they turn out to be a rotten apple.

Maybe you should contact the folks at the Oxygen network and sell your life story.

Uh, you did have enough wealth to grow up in a safe, stable and healthy household - all vital, basic requirements for what followed.

Sure it can be an excuse for some, but it aint representative of all the poor, like you and Reagan would have us believe. Why aint you pissed at the real criminals and welfare whores - Wall Street shyksters and defense contractors? They're stealing trillions of YOUR tax dollars.