Buchanan nails it- why should China do anything we ask?

[native]

So the US should ignore the environment, human rights etc?


Buchanan is screwed in the head.


What we need is to stop importing goods from them, and bring manufacturing back to the US. Yeah, the robber barons of Wall Street may make a few less bucks, but everyone else wins.

Everyone would lose, jon. Your unrealistic and unsustainable model is a pipe dream that kills our economy.

[houndawg]

I didnt say personal debt was caused by low prices. But I'm glad you're now admitting that lower priced crap is the only benefit of free trade. So where are the jobs, increased wages, and resulting demand going to come from?

lower prices--->more money in peoples' pocket --->investment--->new products, goods, services, etc---> more jobs--> more money in people's pocket---> repeat. it's that simple

When do you expect this to start happening, yt?

[kalm]

Your unrealistic and unsustainable model is a pipe dream that kills our economy.

Same as the notion that free trade would help it?

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

So the US should ignore the environment, human rights etc?

Yes, we need to mind our own business and take care of our country. Quit telling other people how to run theirs even though that will kill you control freak libs.




{quote="dbackjon"]What we need is to stop importing goods from them, and bring manufacturing back to the US. Yeah, the robber barons of Wall Street may make a few less bucks, but everyone else wins.[/quote]

Totally agree.

[CitadelGrad]

So the US should ignore the environment, human rights etc?


Buchanan is screwed in the head.


What we need is to stop importing goods from them, and bring manufacturing back to the US. Yeah, the robber barons of Wall Street may make a few less bucks, but everyone else wins.

Everyone would lose, jon. Your unrealistic and unsustainable model is a pipe dream that kills our economy.

Maybe not. There is a good deal of empirical evidence that raising trade barriers is very damaging to surplus nations but can enable deficit nations to increase manufacturing and reduce national debt.

[kalm]

Everyone would lose, jon. Your unrealistic and unsustainable model is a pipe dream that kills our economy.

Maybe not. There is a good deal of empirical evidence that raising trade barriers is very damaging to surplus nations but can enable deficit nations to increase manufacturing and reduce national debt.

Especially if said deficit nation has a butt load of natural resources and very large consumer markets.

[BDKJMU]

If US started a trade war with China as the libs on here want, then GM would be screwed:

GM's China sales pass US for first time in history
GM sold more cars in China than in US for first time; Toyota keeps title for most global sales
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/GMs-China ... l?x=0&.v=2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[kalm]

If US started a trade war with China as the libs on here want, then GM would be screwed:

GM's China sales pass US for first time in history
GM sold more cars in China than in US for first time; Toyota keeps title for most global sales
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/GMs-China ... l?x=0&.v=2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There's probably something in between a trade war and giving China and the multinationals everything they want at our expense.

[GannonFan]

If US started a trade war with China as the libs on here want, then GM would be screwed:

GM's China sales pass US for first time in history
GM sold more cars in China than in US for first time; Toyota keeps title for most global sales
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/GMs-China ... l?x=0&.v=2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There's probably something in between a trade war and giving China and the multinationals everything they want at our expense.

Yeah, there is. We like to call it "present reality".

[kalm]

There's probably something in between a trade war and giving China and the multinationals everything they want at our expense.

Yeah, there is. We like to call it "present reality".

Really? Their markets are as open to our products as our are to them?

[CitadelGrad]

If US started a trade war with China as the libs on here want, then GM would be screwed:

GM's China sales pass US for first time in history
GM sold more cars in China than in US for first time; Toyota keeps title for most global sales
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/GMs-China ... l?x=0&.v=2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm not a lib and GM is already screwed.

[houndawg]

There's probably something in between a trade war and giving China and the multinationals everything they want at our expense.

Yeah, there is. We like to call it "present reality".

Great stuff if you're Chinese.

[GannonFan]

Yeah, there is. We like to call it "present reality".

Really? Their markets are as open to our products as our are to them?

Nope, but we're not in a trade war (relatively speaking) and China and multinationals don't get everything they want at our expense. Hence we are already "somewhere in between".

I've worked in manufacturing in the US all my life and I've seen the good and the bad. But there's no getting around the fact that free trade is here to stay and that if we want manufacturing in the US then we're going to need to make things that are new, novel, and hard for others to make. Crying about not having t-shirt manufacturers in the US anymore isn't going to change the situation. Invent and innovate is the way to go. It's tough that the world is such a competitive and relenting place, but it is what it is.

[houndawg]

Really? Their markets are as open to our products as our are to them?

Nope, but we're not in a trade war (relatively speaking) and China and multinationals don't get everything they want at our expense. Hence we are already "somewhere in between".

I've worked in manufacturing in the US all my life and I've seen the good and the bad. But there's no getting around the fact that free trade is here to stay and that if we want manufacturing in the US then we're going to need to make things that are new, novel, and hard for others to make. Crying about not having t-shirt manufacturers in the US anymore isn't going to change the situation. Invent and innovate is the way to go. It's tough that the world is such a competitive and relenting place, but it is what it is.

Invent and innovate and manufacture abroad. Manufacturing is pretty much done as a major job source, we're arguing after the horse is already out of the barn. Question is why we want manufacturing jobs back when they don't pay enough to live on and never will again.

[kalm]

Nope, but we're not in a trade war (relatively speaking) and China and multinationals don't get everything they want at our expense. Hence we are already "somewhere in between".

I've worked in manufacturing in the US all my life and I've seen the good and the bad. But there's no getting around the fact that free trade is here to stay and that if we want manufacturing in the US then we're going to need to make things that are new, novel, and hard for others to make. Crying about not having t-shirt manufacturers in the US anymore isn't going to change the situation. Invent and innovate is the way to go. It's tough that the world is such a competitive and relenting place, but it is what it is.

Invent and innovate and manufacture abroad. Manufacturing is pretty much done as a major job source, we're arguing after the horse is already out of the barn. Question is why we want manufacturing jobs back when they don't pay enough to live on and never will again.

I pretty much agree with both your posts but reserve the right to bitch about it and consider that as wages and environmental regs in developing countries and shipping fuel costs increase this might not be the case for ever.

[GannonFan]

Nope, but we're not in a trade war (relatively speaking) and China and multinationals don't get everything they want at our expense. Hence we are already "somewhere in between".

I've worked in manufacturing in the US all my life and I've seen the good and the bad. But there's no getting around the fact that free trade is here to stay and that if we want manufacturing in the US then we're going to need to make things that are new, novel, and hard for others to make. Crying about not having t-shirt manufacturers in the US anymore isn't going to change the situation. Invent and innovate is the way to go. It's tough that the world is such a competitive and relenting place, but it is what it is.

Invent and innovate and manufacture abroad. Manufacturing is pretty much done as a major job source, we're arguing after the horse is already out of the barn. Question is why we want manufacturing jobs back when they don't pay enough to live on and never will again.

Depends on which manufacturing jobs you're talking about. There are plenty of ones that do pay well here in the US (I see it everyday). But there are plenty that just simply don't.

But as Kalm says, things change. No one in China would've cared about the environment 20 years ago. They still have monumental issues today, but suddenly those with more money in their pockets are wondering why they have to live with deadly toxins in the air at levels that would make the LA smog look nice by comparison.

[houndawg]

Invent and innovate and manufacture abroad. Manufacturing is pretty much done as a major job source, we're arguing after the horse is already out of the barn. Question is why we want manufacturing jobs back when they don't pay enough to live on and never will again.

I pretty much agree with both your posts but reserve the right to bitch about it and consider that as wages and environmental regs in developing countries and shipping fuel costs increase this might not be the case for ever.

No doubt the cycle will repeat:

Wages creeping up in China? Move the factories to Mongolia.
Brazilians starting to act like they're entitled to job security? Goodbye Brazil, hello Bolivia.

[houndawg]

Invent and innovate and manufacture abroad. Manufacturing is pretty much done as a major job source, we're arguing after the horse is already out of the barn. Question is why we want manufacturing jobs back when they don't pay enough to live on and never will again.

Depends on which manufacturing jobs you're talking about. There are plenty of ones that do pay well here in the US (I see it everyday). But there are plenty that just simply don't.

But as Kalm says, things change. No one in China would've cared about the environment 20 years ago. They still have monumental issues today, but suddenly those with more money in their pockets are wondering why they have to live with deadly toxins in the air at levels that would make the LA smog look nice by comparison.

I know, I've worked them before, and I doubt that some of the jokers here that are always whining about overpaid factory workers could do them. People that haven't worked on the factory floor, as opposed to something like an overhead job counting beans, don't know.

[kalm]

The other factor to consider is that we do still have the leverage of our markets. They still want to be able to sell goods here.

[Grizalltheway]

Nope, but we're not in a trade war (relatively speaking) and China and multinationals don't get everything they want at our expense. Hence we are already "somewhere in between".

I've worked in manufacturing in the US all my life and I've seen the good and the bad. But there's no getting around the fact that free trade is here to stay and that if we want manufacturing in the US then we're going to need to make things that are new, novel, and hard for others to make. Crying about not having t-shirt manufacturers in the US anymore isn't going to change the situation. Invent and innovate is the way to go. It's tough that the world is such a competitive and relenting place, but it is what it is.

Invent and innovate and manufacture abroad. Manufacturing is pretty much done as a major job source, we're arguing after the horse is already out of the barn. Question is why we want manufacturing jobs back when they don't pay enough to live on and never will again.

They certainly do in countries like Germany, where taxes are higher and unions have a much stronger presence. We just need to focus on manufacturing high-tech and capital goods.

[CID1990]

Everyone would lose, jon. Your unrealistic and unsustainable model is a pipe dream that kills our economy.

Maybe not. There is a good deal of empirical evidence that raising trade barriers is very damaging to surplus nations but can enable deficit nations to increase manufacturing and reduce national debt.

Been seeing a lot of this suggestion lately. Generally speaking, it makes sense. Right now if we raised the tarriff it would only hurt China in the long run. It would be somewhat painful for us for a bit, but we would certainly see companies moving in to fill the rubber dog sh!t niche and they would be located here in the US.

[houndawg]

Invent and innovate and manufacture abroad. Manufacturing is pretty much done as a major job source, we're arguing after the horse is already out of the barn. Question is why we want manufacturing jobs back when they don't pay enough to live on and never will again.

They certainly do in countries like Germany, where taxes are higher and unions have a much stronger presence. We just need to focus on manufacturing high-tech and capital goods.

Not going to happen here, though. SCOTUS declared the government officially for sale to the highest bidder and there is no way unions can outspend corporate America; it's over and the middle class lost.

[native]

Yes, it is apparent that it seems basic to you.

Cheaper goods come with a price. Stagnant wages, greater personal debt, greater international debt so that we have cheap things we can't afford? These things make the entitlement programs you're against even more neccessary. Please tell me how free trade has helped America.

if we didn't have rampant inflation caused by the fed and entitlement programs that cripple the job-makers with taxes, as well as minimum wage laws we wouldn't have as much poverty and finding jobs wouldn't be as hard either. Not to mention it would be easier to make a living for one's self if he is paid in currency that is of greater value (blame the fed for inflation). Stagnant wages and international debt are to be blamed on the government. With our current monetary policy we are stuck on a boom-bust cycle, if we ended the fed, we would be forced to cut down on debt and wages would be more consistent and robust. You pulled the personal debt idea being because of low prices right out of your ass. Free trade has helped America through cheaper goods, if there was less government involvement in the marketplace it would be even better for the economy

[native]

"...as America sinks economically and retreats strategically, while China grows at 10 percent and bristles with confidence, we appear to be a nation of whiners. They are eating our lunch, and we sound like losers in a locker room. ..."

"...We can't win or end our wars, balance our budgets or control our borders. Great states like California and Illinois appear about to go belly-up. The U.S. government is running a third straight deficit of near 10 percent of our entire economy. We used our stimulus money to save government jobs. They used theirs for bullet trains. ..."

Troof!

[houndawg]

Yes, it is apparent that it seems basic to you.

Cheaper goods come with a price. Stagnant wages, greater personal debt, greater international debt so that we have cheap things we can't afford? These things make the entitlement programs you're against even more neccessary. Please tell me how free trade has helped America.

if we didn't have rampant inflation caused by the fed and entitlement programs that cripple the job-makers with taxes, as well as minimum wage laws we wouldn't have as much poverty and finding jobs wouldn't be as hard either. Not to mention it would be easier to make a living for one's self if he is paid in currency that is of greater value (blame the fed for inflation). Stagnant wages and international debt are to be blamed on the government. With our current monetary policy we are stuck on a boom-bust cycle, if we ended the fed, we would be forced to cut down on debt and wages would be more consistent and robust. You pulled the personal debt idea being because of low prices right out of your ass. Free trade has helped America through cheaper goods, if there was less government involvement in the marketplace it would be even better for the economy

Translation: Free trade didn't work so we'll blame government.