Confederate Flag

[TwinTownBisonFan]

When I was a kid, seeing rednecks with that flag was, for my parents and teachers a "teaching moment"

Depending on what they taught, they were either open minded parents or bigots. You seem pretty set in your ways for a self-described Liberal.

Learned all about my heritage... my great-great-great-great grandfather (might be one more great in there) marched with Sherman's army to put down the traitors and preserve our union.

[kalm]

we were right. Article X The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

In this case, while it sickens me to see such a sacred symbol debased as far as to be placed on a pickup truck, the bus driver in question is being lynched by the klan of political correctness.

When I was a kid, seeing rednecks with that flag was, for my parents and teachers a "teaching moment"

As it should have been......and it should have gone like this......."well twintown that Flag is a symbol of the bravery and gallantry of a noble and righteous people who were in deadly earnest and meant to maintain their rights as they understood them and were passed down to them by the Fathers or die in the attempt. It is a symbol that some things are worth fighting for and defending. the MEN of the Confederate Army ill fed, ill clothed, unsheltered, unpaid, and with greatly inferior weapons for four tremendous years they bore The Cause of the South on the points of their shining bayonets. They won victory after victory and held at bay as powerful and well equipped invader as the world had ever seen. Seven commanders faced General Lee in the two years and ten months he led the gallant little Army of Northern Virginia. In that period this army killed, wounded, and captured 262,000 of the enemy. A number more than twice as great as the total force under his own command during that period. Of the seven officers that opposed Lee six were sent to " the scrap heap" or cashiered. The seventh, Grant, was defeated more often and more signally than the others but was allowed to hold on, in the correct belief, that overwhelming numbers and resources must finally turn the scales. When asked to name the five greatest generals of the English speaking race Lord Wolseley chose Marlborough, Wellington, Washington, Lee, and Jackson. When the questioner said, but my Lord, you do not include Grant yet you know that Grant defeated Lee. Wolseley replied "can you call a general truly great who lost more men in thirty days than his opponent had in his entire army?" In four years there were 605,000 men in the Confederate Army and Navy. In the United States Army and Navy in four years there were 2,778,000. Those Southern Men were NOT traitors or rebels but brave men and true who knew their rights and knowing dared maintain them. For loyalty is not nurtured on untruths. Distorting or suppressing the plain facts of history does not breed patriotism. The Confederates fought on and gallantly and lost. The Southern People accept the result, but long for their own Nation and Flag, without one tinge of shame or apology for them, but rather with swelling pride that in our veins flows the blood of gallant men who dared to fight for the right as God gave them the ability to see it"

That's very eloquent and gets me kinda misty eyed...

and has nothing whatsoever to do with some rube from southern oregon who wants to prove his level of redneckedness.

[citdog]

Depending on what they taught, they were either open minded parents or bigots. You seem pretty set in your ways for a self-described Liberal.

Learned all about my heritage... my great-great-great-great grandfather (might be one more great in there) marched with Sherman's army to put down the traitors and preserve our union.

so coercion and the "i know what's best for you even better than you know yourself" attitude and politics are a family tradition

[houndawg]

we were right. Article X The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

In this case, while it sickens me to see such a sacred symbol debased as far as to be placed on a pickup truck, the bus driver in question is being lynched by the klan of political correctness.

When I was a kid, seeing rednecks with that flag was, for my parents and teachers a "teaching moment"

As it should have been......and it should have gone like this......."well twintown that Flag is a symbol of the bravery and gallantry of a noble and righteous people who were in deadly earnest and meant to maintain their rights as they understood them and were passed down to them by the Fathers or die in the attempt. It is a symbol that some things are worth fighting for and defending. the MEN of the Confederate Army ill fed, ill clothed, unsheltered, unpaid, and with greatly inferior weapons for four tremendous years they bore The Cause of the South on the points of their shining bayonets. They won victory after victory and held at bay as powerful and well equipped invader as the world had ever seen. Seven commanders faced General Lee in the two years and ten months he led the gallant little Army of Northern Virginia. In that period this army killed, wounded, and captured 262,000 of the enemy. A number more than twice as great as the total force under his own command during that period. Of the seven officers that opposed Lee six were sent to " the scrap heap" or cashiered. The seventh, Grant, was defeated more often and more signally than the others but was allowed to hold on, in the correct belief, that overwhelming numbers and resources must finally turn the scales. When asked to name the five greatest generals of the English speaking race Lord Wolseley chose Marlborough, Wellington, Washington, Lee, and Jackson. When the questioner said, but my Lord, you do not include Grant yet you know that Grant defeated Lee. Wolseley replied "can you call a general truly great who lost more men in thirty days than his opponent had in his entire army?" In four years there were 605,000 men in the Confederate Army and Navy. In the United States Army and Navy in four years there were 2,778,000. Those Southern Men were NOT traitors or rebels but brave men and true who knew their rights and knowing dared maintain them. For loyalty is not nurtured on untruths. Distorting or suppressing the plain facts of history does not breed patriotism. The Confederates fought on and gallantly and lost. The Southern People accept the result, but long for their own Nation and Flag, without one tinge of shame or apology for them, but rather with swelling pride that in our veins flows the blood of gallant men who dared to fight for the right as God gave them the ability to see it"

Sounds like JBB explaining why NDSU is the FCS national champion.

We beat the stuffing out of them!

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

When I was a kid, seeing rednecks with that flag was, for my parents and teachers a "teaching moment"

Depending on what they taught, they were either open minded parents or bigots. You seem pretty set in your ways for a self-described Liberal.

Open minded spill their brains a lot.

[CID1990]

Depending on what they taught, they were either open minded parents or bigots. You seem pretty set in your ways for a self-described Liberal.

Learned all about my heritage... my great-great-great-great grandfather (might be one more great in there) marched with Sherman's army to put down the traitors and preserve our union.

My great-great grandfather fought and was eventually captured on the first day at Gettysburg. He was in his 30's when he had my great grandfather, who was in his 30s when he had my grandmother, who was in her 30s when she had my dad, who was in his 30s when he had me.

For you to get 4 greats in there means you had some 15 year olds having kids, which explains a lot. I'll bet your family was actually IN on the invention of having wheels on a house.

[kalm]

we were right. Article X The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

In this case, while it sickens me to see such a sacred symbol debased as far as to be placed on a pickup truck, the bus driver in question is being lynched by the klan of political correctness.





As it should have been......and it should have gone like this......."well twintown that Flag is a symbol of the bravery and gallantry of a noble and righteous people who were in deadly earnest and meant to maintain their rights as they understood them and were passed down to them by the Fathers or die in the attempt. It is a symbol that some things are worth fighting for and defending. the MEN of the Confederate Army ill fed, ill clothed, unsheltered, unpaid, and with greatly inferior weapons for four tremendous years they bore The Cause of the South on the points of their shining bayonets. They won victory after victory and held at bay as powerful and well equipped invader as the world had ever seen. Seven commanders faced General Lee in the two years and ten months he led the gallant little Army of Northern Virginia. In that period this army killed, wounded, and captured 262,000 of the enemy. A number more than twice as great as the total force under his own command during that period. Of the seven officers that opposed Lee six were sent to " the scrap heap" or cashiered. The seventh, Grant, was defeated more often and more signally than the others but was allowed to hold on, in the correct belief, that overwhelming numbers and resources must finally turn the scales. When asked to name the five greatest generals of the English speaking race Lord Wolseley chose Marlborough, Wellington, Washington, Lee, and Jackson. When the questioner said, but my Lord, you do not include Grant yet you know that Grant defeated Lee. Wolseley replied "can you call a general truly great who lost more men in thirty days than his opponent had in his entire army?" In four years there were 605,000 men in the Confederate Army and Navy. In the United States Army and Navy in four years there were 2,778,000. Those Southern Men were NOT traitors or rebels but brave men and true who knew their rights and knowing dared maintain them. For loyalty is not nurtured on untruths. Distorting or suppressing the plain facts of history does not breed patriotism. The Confederates fought on and gallantly and lost. The Southern People accept the result, but long for their own Nation and Flag, without one tinge of shame or apology for them, but rather with swelling pride that in our veins flows the blood of gallant men who dared to fight for the right as God gave them the ability to see it"

Sounds like JBB explaining why NDSU is the FCS national champion.

We beat the stuffing out of them!

[LeadBolt]

I wonder if or should the same standard have been applied had his truck had a red, black and green striped flag with a raised fist on it?

[GannonFan]

I wonder if or should the same standard have been applied had his truck had a red, black and green striped flag with a raised fist on it?

Of course it wouldn't have. That flag had never been used by a group of states fighting to keep a race of people in bondage and that flag had never been used to terrorize and intimidate those same people who had the temerity to want to exercise their newly one freedoms from the same said flag. History matters, no matter how much people try to rewrite it.

[LeadBolt]

I'm not sure that in 1968 it wasn't used that way in several inner cities.

[Pwns]

People don't get offended over the confederate flag because it was a once a symbol of defiance over the civil rights movement or because it was once the symbol of the confederacy. People get offended over it because today it's more a symbol of rejecting the oversimplified, comic book, cookie-cutter version of the American Civil War that we all get spoon-fed in our schools.

The Civil War is a textbook case of "history is written by the victors" and no one wants to want to alter their view of any in lieu of any facts. Even a lot of people who are pacifists and who would argue that our freeing political prisoners in Iraq doesn't justify the Iraq invasion don't seem to have any problem with the Civil War in retrospect. It's just downright astonishing.

[GannonFan]

I'm not sure that in 1968 it wasn't used that way in several inner cities.

Sure, I bet in 1968 in several inner cities large swaths of white people were rounded up and forced into bondage. Yup, dark times indeed.

The Confederate flag is grouped into the same dustbin of history as other symbols that, no matter their original intention, or even the use of many, were ultimately corrupted and twisted into something else. Kinda like the swatsika - that used to be a good symbol, and in some parts of the world it still is today. But in many parts of the world it is offensive and restricted. Nothing new here.

[GannonFan]

People don't get offended over the confederate flag because it was a once a symbol of defiance over the civil rights movement or because it was once the symbol of the confederacy. People get offended over it because today it's more a symbol of rejecting the oversimplified, comic book, cookie-cutter version of the American Civil War that we all get spoon-fed in our schools.

The Civil War is a textbook case of "history is written by the victors" and no one wants to want to alter their view of any in lieu of any facts. Even a lot of people who are pacifists and who would argue that our freeing political prisoners in Iraq doesn't justify the Iraq invasion don't seem to have any problem with the Civil War in retrospect. It's just downright astonishing.

Whether people were saying they were going to war for slavery at the start of the war matters little - without slavery, the Civil War never would've happened. There's no rewriting of history to get that fact across.

[LeadBolt]

So the 97% of white southerners who were not slave owners were unthinking, unknowing pawns of the 3% who were slave owners and did not know for what they went to war (see 10th amendment, etc.).

If this was the case, then why did Lincoln only free slaves in the states under rebellion and not in the northern states also (such as your own Delaware) in the Gettysburg address?

[Skjellyfetti]

at Lincoln freeing the slaves in the Gettysburg Address.

William and Mary has a top-notch history department, no?

[LeadBolt]

at Lincoln freeing the slaves in the Gettysburg Address.

William and Mary has a top-notch history department, no?

The department is top notch, but not all of its graduates are (see leadbolt). As you point out, that should be the Emancipation Proclamation, issued as an executive order on January 1, 1863, freeing the slaves in areas under rebellion, but not in the areas loyal to the Union.

I've always been puzzled by the interpretation of the CW being over slavery to give it a moral basis and this freeing of slaves, almost two years into the war, not including those areas that were fighting for freeing of slaves.

[GannonFan]

at Lincoln freeing the slaves in the Gettysburg Address.

William and Mary has a top-notch history department, no?

The department is top notch, but not all of its graduates are (see leadbolt). As you point out, that should be the Emancipation Proclamation, issued as an executive order on January 1, 1863, freeing the slaves in areas under rebellion, but not in the areas loyal to the Union.

I've always been puzzled by the interpretation of the CW being over slavery to give it a moral basis and this freeing of slaves, almost two years into the war, not including those areas that were fighting for freeing of slaves.

I didn't say anything about the CW being over slavery to give it a moral basis - what I did say was that slavery itself, per se, was the overriding cause of the war. That isn't really in dispute. Slavery was the single biggest issue in almost every crisis of importance from the start of the nation until the Civil War (Compromise of 1820, Compromise of 1850, popular soveriegnty, etc). Sure, you can fall back on the 10th ammendment if you like, but what was the South trying to use the 10th ammendment for? That's right, the perpetuation of slavery. Without slavery there is no war. Period. Heck, the South Carolina articles of secession are littered with references to slavery. No one was going to war over the intricacies of the 10th ammendment because they wouldn't have cared about the 10th ammendment had it not been for the issue of slavery. The moral part of it didn't come until well after the war started. But without slavery, we never have that war.

[Skjellyfetti]

A Declaration of the Immediate Causes which Induce and Justify the Secession of the State of Mississippi from the Federal Union.

In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

Pretty damning, imo.


I agree that the primary motivation of the US wasn't the abolition of slavery... it was the preservation of the Union. But, slavery was the primary reason the southern states left the Union... and,thus, the primary reason for the war.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

GF just ripping the tits off of this... handing out historical beatdowns left and right this a +1 for everything on this page

[BDKJMU]

Two longest running threads we'll get on here are over abortion and the War Between the States.

[93henfan]

These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun.

Nice.

[LeadBolt]

GF just ripping the tits off of this... handing out historical beatdowns left and right this a +1 for everything on this page

Thank you! - LOL

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

CW=States Rights

[Skjellyfetti]

compelling argument

[citdog]

the keeping of servants by planters was, and is, a red herring. Had not the Constitution provided for representation and taxation based of the labor of servants, and for the restoration of the fugitive servant there would have been no war. Our 'peculiar institution' was only an incident out of which grew questions regarding State rights and rights of Territories seeking to become States. But whether the institution was here rightfully or wrongfully it was here under the protection of the law and not subject to be taken away by violence or any insidious device of abstraction.

Were the States sovereign? England seemed to think so. At the conclusion of the First American Revolution 13 SEPERATE Peaces were made with the 13 colonies who had SECEDED from her realm.

The trade in African Servants was a source of deep concern for the majority of the States, and Southern States seemed more concerned than Northern. Georgia was the 1st State to legislate against it in 1760; Virginia, in 1778 and 32 more times until 1860. Thomas Jefferson's original draft of the Dec. of Ind had a protest against the trade and John Adams, of Massachusetts, insisted that it be stricken out. Massachusetts was the first State to to legislate in favor of the trade. New Jersey was the last to legislate against it, and New York NEVER did. In reality, Mass and NY were carrying on the trade in violation of US law as late as Dec 1860 when South Carolina left the voluntary union of the States. It was decided by the federal government that the trade should cease in 1808 yet as late as 1857 it is known that 75 slave trading ships had sailed from Massachusetts ports, and between 1859 and 1860 it is known that 85 slavers left New York. As late as 1857 the vessel Chlotilde was sent to Mobile, AL with 175 slaves, and the following year the NEW YORK YACHT CLUB sent the vessel Wanderer to Brunswick, GA with 750 slaves and the next year it returned with 600 slaves and sailed up the Satilla and Savannah rivers and sold this cargo in violation of the law. The State of Georgia prosecuted two Georgians who were accused of encouraging the transportation. If the federal government ever punished Mass and NY for violating the law there is no record of it.

Let it be remembered that no Southern Man ever owned a slave ship. No Southern Man ever commanded a slave ship. No Southern Man ever went to Africa for slaves. Any thinking person may see how unjust have been the accusations concerning the South in regards to the institution. The trouble really between the two sections was caused by a different interpretation of the Constitution as to what rights were reserved to the States, and whether the union of the States was a Nation or a Republic. In simpleton, otherwise known as "twintown", "gannonfan", or "sex jelly", it really boiled down to ONE word. In the South it was said "the United States ARE" at the North it was said "the United States "IS".