Pope Francis Smacks Trickle Down

[kalm]

D, those links are just stupid stuff.

These websites try to make the case the pope is the anti-Christ.

The anti-Christ is the story of Revelation was Nero. The cipher of his name, Neron Caesar, calculates to 666 in the Hebrew gematria. Moreover, his name in Latin, Nero Caesar, calculates to 616, and there are early Latin versions of Revelation which refers to the number of the Beast as "616."

Today, you have a lot of the man-made Christian sects which try to interpret Revelation as some end-time prophesy, or some condemnation of the Catholic Church. While there are some prophesy of end times in the book, its chief purpose was to convey a message, in Biblical code, to the first-century churches oppressed by the "whore of Babylon" (the Roman Empire) that the Catholic Church would prevail against and survive long past the Roman Empire. The purpose of the book was to give hope and strengthen the faith of the violently oppressed Catholic Church. And the prophesy of the book was fulfilled when Constantine legalized Catholicism in the early fourth century.

Every symbol in Revelation had some Old Testament significance which would have been readily understood by the first-century Catholics, but would have had no meaning to those in the empire. Thus, if a copy of the book fell into the hands of the empire, those in the empire would have no idea what the book was about.

Be sure and wipe the spittle from the corner of your mouth and when you utter "man-made christian sects…"

BTW, do these lesser christians still get to heaven? (serious question)

[JoltinJoe]

BTW, do these lesser christians still get to heaven? (serious question)

Catholics don't presume to limit the mercy or grace of God; however, the fullness of Christ is found within the Church he established and which, through the power of the Holy Spirit, has preserved -- even though this Church should have never survived the execution of a leader who had but a few followers. That this Church thrives 2000 years later is miraculous.

And there is no need to wipe. People who follow Luther, or Calvin, or any other man adhere to a church started by a man.

[FCS PATRIOTS]

It's funny that as a member of a "church founded by Luther", we don't pray to the great reformer, we don't have feast days for him. nope, every pray uttered in our church is towards Jesus Christ alone.

Paul addresses a lot of people in the epistle to the Romans, yet never mentions Peter by name in Rome. While not Lutheran, this Anglican source pretty much nails what the rest of the Christian world knows to be true.

http://anglicanhistory.org/grafton/v1/294.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[FCS PATRIOTS]

If catholics believed that their church retains the entire "fullness of Christ", especially his words on the cross "IT IS FINISHED" as being the fulfillment of the Father's redemptive work for all mankind, then how does one explain that centuries later Christ's mother appears to the world and states that anybody that wears her medallions and brown scapulars will receive protection and eternal life?

I guess "IT IS FINISHED" is not believed by the Roman church after all and let's please not refer to it as the catholic church since catholic in greek means universal which entails the entire Christian world.

[FCS PATRIOTS]

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/666.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Nero eh?

[Chizzang]

even though this Church should have never survived the execution of a leader who had but a few followers. That this Church thrives 2000 years later is miraculous.

Um... why do you think that's miraculous..?
A group of followers are going to believe Scientology for the next multiple thousands of years

I don't see the amazing part
Unless you're implying that it's amazing that people can be so incredibly manipulative and deceptive

[JoltinJoe]

even though this Church should have never survived the execution of a leader who had but a few followers. That this Church thrives 2000 years later is miraculous.

Um... why do you think that's miraculous..?
A group of followers are going to believe Scientology for the next multiple thousands of years

I don't see the amazing part
Unless you're implying that it's amazing that people can be so incredibly manipulative and deceptive

Christ was executed and left 11 dedicated and largely uneducated adherents, themselves marked for arrest and detention by the local representative of the empire. You would think that's the end of it. The 11 go into hiding, retreat back to their home towns, and go back to a life of fishing quietly.

Instead, they travel all the known world, convert hundreds of thousands with the message that "our leader was brutally executed, but we saw him again after he was raised from the dead." Despite their limited learning, they speak and write persuasively. All but one of them are themselves executed, and go to their deaths knowingly, happily, and penniless still proclaiming the message.

Their faith spreads even though it is actively persecuted and membership in their church is made a capital crime by the empire.

Christianity is the only major world religion which exists today that became established even though it was brutally repressed by civil authorities and even though it grew in society which did not affirm its faith system.

If you see nothing miraculous about that, I'd suggest you view an on-line course about First Century Christianity and see just how miraculous Christianity's growth was.

[FCS PATRIOTS]

Um... why do you think that's miraculous..?
A group of followers are going to believe Scientology for the next multiple thousands of years

I don't see the amazing part
Unless you're implying that it's amazing that people can be so incredibly manipulative and deceptive

Christ was executed and left 11 dedicated and largely uneducated adherents, themselves marked for arrest and detention by the local representative of the empire. You would think that's the end of it. The 11 go into hiding, retreat back to their home towns, and go back to a life of fishing quietly.

Instead, they travel all the known world, convert hundreds of thousands with the message that "our leader was brutally executed, but we saw him again after he was raised from the dead." Despite their limited learning, they speak and write persuasively. All but one of them are themselves executed, and go to their deaths knowingly, happily, and penniless still proclaiming the message.

Their faith spreads even though it is actively persecuted and membership in their church is made a capital crime by the empire.

Christianity is the only major world religion which exists today that became established even though it was brutally repressed by civil authorities and even though it grew in society which did not affirm its faith system.

If you see nothing miraculous about that, I'd suggest you view an on-line course about First Century Christianity and see just how miraculous Christianity's growth was.

And this I will stand with you on 100% for until the cows come home. However, there are us Christians who refuse to submit to an institution that started simply by usurpation and proceeded to dominate in man's affairs both religiously and politically. Other than that, stay blessed.

[kalm]

Um... why do you think that's miraculous..?
A group of followers are going to believe Scientology for the next multiple thousands of years

I don't see the amazing part
Unless you're implying that it's amazing that people can be so incredibly manipulative and deceptive

Christ was executed and left 11 dedicated and largely uneducated adherents, themselves marked for arrest and detention by the local representative of the empire. You would think that's the end of it. The 11 go into hiding, retreat back to their home towns, and go back to a life of fishing quietly.

Instead, they travel all the known world, convert hundreds of thousands with the message that "our leader was brutally executed, but we saw him again after he was raised from the dead." Despite their limited learning, they speak and write persuasively. All but one of them are themselves executed, and go to their deaths knowingly, happily, and penniless still proclaiming the message.

Their faith spreads even though it is actively persecuted and membership in their church is made a capital crime by the empire.

Christianity is the only major world religion which exists today that became established even though it was brutally repressed by civil authorities and even though it grew in society which did not affirm its faith system.
.

And then Christianity turns around and actively, and often brutally persecutes other faiths once it becomes the civil authorities. And/or encourages assimilation by adopting some of their traditions.

Congratulations on some of those wins...I guess.

[D1B]

Um... why do you think that's miraculous..?
A group of followers are going to believe Scientology for the next multiple thousands of years

I don't see the amazing part
Unless you're implying that it's amazing that people can be so incredibly manipulative and deceptive

Christ was executed and left 11 dedicated and largely uneducated adherents, themselves marked for arrest and detention by the local representative of the empire. You would think that's the end of it. The 11 go into hiding, retreat back to their home towns, and go back to a life of fishing quietly.

Instead, they travel all the known world, convert hundreds of thousands with the message that "our leader was brutally executed, but we saw him again after he was raised from the dead." Despite their limited learning, they speak and write persuasively. All but one of them are themselves executed, and go to their deaths knowingly, happily, and penniless still proclaiming the message.

Their faith spreads even though it is actively persecuted and membership in their church is made a capital crime by the empire.

Christianity is the only major world religion which exists today that became established even though it was brutally repressed by civil authorities and even though it grew in society which did not affirm its faith system.

If you see nothing miraculous about that, I'd suggest you view an on-line course about First Century Christianity and see just how miraculous Christianity's growth was.

This is the official "catholic version" of how it went down. It is for the most part a fabrication. .

[Beardown]

Good for him. Dude seems fairly progressive.

This won't make Ganny happy at all.

Pope Francis, who has made alleviating poverty a central pillar of his papacy, criticized the “idolatry of money” in the global economy and denounced the unfettered free market as the “new tyranny.”

“How can it be that it is not a news item when an elderly homeless person dies of exposure, but it is news when the stock market loses 2 points?” Pope Francis asked in an anticipated 84-page report airing the views of the Vatican, known as the apostolic exhortation and released Tuesday.

Read more: Pope Francis Denounces Absolute Free Market in Vatican Document | TIME.com http://world.time.com/2013/11/26/pope-f ... z2lrDWKUzK" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No to an economy of exclusion

53. Just as the commandment “Thou shalt not kill” sets a clear limit in order to safeguard the value of human life, today we also have to say “thou shalt not” to an economy of exclusion and inequality. Such an economy kills. How can it be that it is not a news item when an elderly homeless person dies of exposure, but it is news when the stock market loses two points? This is a case of exclusion. Can we continue to stand by when food is thrown away while people are starving? This is a case of inequality. Today everything comes under the laws of competition and the survival of the fittest, where the powerful feed upon the powerless. As a consequence, masses of people find themselves excluded and marginalized: without work, without possibilities, without any means of escape.

Human beings are themselves considered consumer goods to be used and then discarded. We have created a “disposable” culture which is now spreading. It is no longer simply about exploitation and oppression, but something new. Exclusion ultimately has to do with what it means to be a part of the society in which we live; those excluded are no longer society’s underside or its fringes or its disenfranchised – they are no longer even a part of it. The excluded are not the “exploited” but the outcast, the “leftovers”.

54. In this context, some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world. This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system. Meanwhile, the excluded are still waiting. To sustain a lifestyle which excludes others, or to sustain enthusiasm for that selfish ideal, a globalization of indifference has developed. Almost without being aware of it, we end up being incapable of feeling compassion at the outcry of the poor, weeping for other people’s pain, and feeling a need to help them, as though all this were someone else’s responsibility and not our own. The culture of prosperity deadens us; we are thrilled if the market offers us something new to purchase; and in the meantime all those lives stunted for lack of opportunity seem a mere spectacle; they fail to move us.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/franc ... _exclusion" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is nothing new. In 1891 Pope Leo XIII's encyclical essentially warns against unregulated capitalism and expresses concern for the working poor.
tp://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/enc ... um_en.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[kalm]

Good for him. Dude seems fairly progressive.

This won't make Ganny happy at all.



Read more: Pope Francis Denounces Absolute Free Market in Vatican Document | TIME.com http://world.time.com/2013/11/26/pope-f ... z2lrDWKUzK" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;




http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/franc ... _exclusion" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is nothing new. In 1891 Pope Leo XIII's encyclical essentially warns against unregulated capitalism and expresses concern for the working poor.
tp://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/enc ... um_en.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Link doesn't work.

[Beardown]

This is nothing new. In 1891 Pope Leo XIII's encyclical essentially warns against unregulated capitalism and expresses concern for the working poor.
tp://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/enc ... um_en.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Link doesn't work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rerum_Novarum" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[JoltinJoe]

Christ was executed and left 11 dedicated and largely uneducated adherents, themselves marked for arrest and detention by the local representative of the empire. You would think that's the end of it. The 11 go into hiding, retreat back to their home towns, and go back to a life of fishing quietly.

Instead, they travel all the known world, convert hundreds of thousands with the message that "our leader was brutally executed, but we saw him again after he was raised from the dead." Despite their limited learning, they speak and write persuasively. All but one of them are themselves executed, and go to their deaths knowingly, happily, and penniless still proclaiming the message.

Their faith spreads even though it is actively persecuted and membership in their church is made a capital crime by the empire.

Christianity is the only major world religion which exists today that became established even though it was brutally repressed by civil authorities and even though it grew in society which did not affirm its faith system.

If you see nothing miraculous about that, I'd suggest you view an on-line course about First Century Christianity and see just how miraculous Christianity's growth was.

This is the official "catholic version" of how it went down. It is for the most part a fabrication. .

Check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1Bh_SAEU90" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[D1B]

This is the official "catholic version" of how it went down. It is for the most part a fabrication. .

Check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1Bh_SAEU90" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Christianity at the time was one of many boutique cults vying for the attention and the money of the ignorant and fearful. It's a basic historical fact that it did not gain any significant following until Constantine chose it, among several other cults, to be his personal religion and thus the official religion of his empire - around 300.

With its promises of salvation for good behavior - it was the perfect religion for tyrants and charlatans.

Essentially from 300 to 2014, the catholic church has leveled unparallelled brutality upon humanity. If you weren't a christian, you were fucked - for 1700 years. Still continues to this day. Tell your boss you're an atheist and see how far you get in your company.

The catholic underdog miracle - It's a nice story, Joe, but it's a sanitized fairy tale crafted by your cult.

Bottom line, the catholic church exists today due to centuries of brutality, indoctrination of kids from birth (child abuse), rewriting or destroying historical evidence, stealing people's money - just plain exploitation and capitalizing on the fears of an ignorant populace.

[YoUDeeMan]

The only Christian churches which do not recognize the pope as head of the "one, holy, catholic and apostolic" are churches founded by men centuries after Christ lived.

So Francis is not "just one among many ostensibly informed opinions about the nature of Jesus." Others may have opinions, but Francis can speak ex cathedra (when he chooses to).

C'mon, Joe, the idea of a one and only, "Pope" wasn't used until centuries after Christ lived. It took many hundreds of years, and lots of bloodshed and power trips, for the bureaucracy of the Catholic Church to form and take control. Even after that, there were power struggles within the supposedly unified church. Damn, the Papal power grab tangled them up and often put them in bed with the kings of Europe.

The Pope speaking ex cathedral... ...what happens when a different Pope changes his mind?

Popes are just people on top of a large bureaucracy, and similar to most bureaucracies, Popes are often out of touch with the people. This new guy might be closer to his peeps, but that just highlights the fact that the other Popes were clueless clowns in a ceremonial position.

[YoUDeeMan]

And then Christianity turns around and actively, and often brutally persecutes other faiths once it becomes the civil authorities. And/or encourages assimilation by adopting some of their traditions.

Congratulations on some of those wins...I guess.

Joe has an interesting view of the world. He is not amazed that people are Buddhists (after being persecuted), or Jews (also prosecuted). He is not amazed at the quickness of spread of Islam (and it surviving the schism within that religion). He is not amazed that there are several TV shows that thrive on beliefs about ghosts, mermaids, bigfoot...you name it. He is not amazed that a bunch of people continue to vote for Marion Berry, Rangel, or any number of lying sacks of shyt.

However, Joe is amazed (and calls it a miracle) that a bunch of superstitious, uneducated people followed a story about a man who some say was the son of god. And yet he is not amazed that some folks would take that story, turn it into a form of control, and use it to wipe out any forms of competition.

Amazing.

[D1B]

And then Christianity turns around and actively, and often brutally persecutes other faiths once it becomes the civil authorities. And/or encourages assimilation by adopting some of their traditions.

Congratulations on some of those wins...I guess.

Joe has an interesting view of the world. He is not amazed that people are Buddhists (after being persecuted), or Jews (also prosecuted). He is not amazed at the quickness of spread of Islam (and it surviving the schism within that religion). He is not amazed that there are several TV shows that thrive on beliefs about ghosts, mermaids, bigfoot...you name it. He is not amazed that a bunch of people continue to vote for Marion Berry, Rangel, or any number of lying sacks of shyt.

However, Joe is amazed (and calls it a miracle) that a bunch of superstitious, uneducated people followed a story about a man who some say was the son of god. And yet he is not amazed that some folks would take that story, turn it into a form of control, and use it to wipe out any forms of competition.

Amazing.

He's a believer.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfuBREMXxts[/youtube]

[D1B]

The only Christian churches which do not recognize the pope as head of the "one, holy, catholic and apostolic" are churches founded by men centuries after Christ lived.

So Francis is not "just one among many ostensibly informed opinions about the nature of Jesus." Others may have opinions, but Francis can speak ex cathedra (when he chooses to).

C'mon, Joe, the idea of a one and only, "Pope" wasn't used until centuries after Christ lived. It took many hundreds of years, and lots of bloodshed and power trips, for the bureaucracy of the Catholic Church to form and take control. Even after that, there were power struggles within the supposedly unified church. Damn, the Papal power grab tangled them up and often put them in bed with the kings of Europe.

The Pope speaking ex cathedral... ...what happens when a different Pope changes his mind?

Popes are just people on top of a large bureaucracy, and similar to most bureaucracies, Popes are often out of touch with the people. This new guy might be closer to his peeps, but that just highlights the fact that the other Popes were clueless clowns in a ceremonial position.

And wipe out competition they did. So much so, mankind lost 1000 years of progress during this era of catholic corruption.

Recently came across this 1447 quote by Lorenzo Ghiberti regarding the destruction of art following Constantine's conversion:

The Christian faith triumphed in the time of Emporer Constantine and Pope Sylvester. Idolatry (pagan religion) was persecuted with such rigor that all statues and pictures of great nobility, antiquity and perfection were smashed or torn to bits. And along with the statues and pictures were destroyed the books, commentaries, drawings and manuals which taught such an eminent and worth art. And then, to wipe out every trace of the old customs of idolatry, it was decreed that all the churches mus be white. Severe penalties were inflicted on anyone who made a statue or a picture. Thus there ended the arts of sculpture and of painting and everything men knew about them. Art died, and churches remained white for some 600 years.

Just think where we would be right now if the catholic church never happened? We lost 1000 years, at least.

[kalm]

C'mon, Joe, the idea of a one and only, "Pope" wasn't used until centuries after Christ lived. It took many hundreds of years, and lots of bloodshed and power trips, for the bureaucracy of the Catholic Church to form and take control. Even after that, there were power struggles within the supposedly unified church. Damn, the Papal power grab tangled them up and often put them in bed with the kings of Europe.

The Pope speaking ex cathedral... ...what happens when a different Pope changes his mind?

Popes are just people on top of a large bureaucracy, and similar to most bureaucracies, Popes are often out of touch with the people. This new guy might be closer to his peeps, but that just highlights the fact that the other Popes were clueless clowns in a ceremonial position.

And wipe out competition they did. So much so, mankind lost 1000 years of progress during this era of catholic corruption.

Recently came across this 1447 quote by Lorenzo Ghiberti regarding the destruction of art following Constantine's conversion:

The Christian faith triumphed in the time of Emporer Constantine and Pope Sylvester. Idolatry (pagan religion) was persecuted with such rigor that all statues and pictures of great nobility, antiquity and perfection were smashed or torn to bits. And along with the statues and pictures were destroyed the books, commentaries, drawings and manuals which taught such an eminent and worth art. And then, to wipe out every trace of the old customs of idolatry, it was decreed that all the churches mus be white. Severe penalties were inflicted on anyone who made a statue or a picture. Thus there ended the arts of sculpture and of painting and everything men knew about them. Art died, and churches remained white for some 600 years.

Just think where we would be right now if the catholic church never happened? We lost 1000 years, at least.

Good god Joe... It's a miracle paganism survived this onslaught at all. It's almost as if the Church became as oppressive as the empire it replaced...

[JoltinJoe]

All of you just shoot from the hip.

I posted a link to a Yale lecture. I sat through the entire 26 lectures of that class.

When any of you do that, let me know, and we'll talk.

Otherwise, do and say what you want. I don't have the time to waste debating things with the uninformed.

But note that only major world religion was formed and grew in a society which brutally repressed it and made membership in that church a capital offense (which was, in fact, a penalty which was routinely carrried out).

[JoltinJoe]

D, you have a source from that quote from Ghiberti? Seems doubtful to me that he said that.

Also, to clear up some myths about Constantine:

(i) he legalized Christianity, but he did not outlaw paganism, so it is doubtful he engineered or allowed any massive destruction of works of antiquity.

(ii) Constantine himself was an admirer of art and learning, so it is doubtful he engineered or allowed by massive destruction of works of antiquity.

Like most charges against the Catholic Church, the charges advanced in the quote (whether spoken by Ghiberti or not) are hyperbole.

Edit:

See this link. pagan temples were razed under Constantine, but the destruction was nowhere near what was suggested in the quote.

[Ibanez]

D, those links are just stupid stuff.

These websites try to make the case the pope is the anti-Christ.

The anti-Christ is the story of Revelation was Nero. The cipher of his name, Neron Caesar, calculates to 666 in the Hebrew gematria. Moreover, his name in Latin, Nero Caesar, calculates to 616, and there are early Latin versions of Revelation which refers to the number of the Beast as "616."

Today, you have a lot of the man-made Christian sects which try to interpret Revelation as some end-time prophesy, or some condemnation of the Catholic Church. While there are some prophesy of end times in the book, its chief purpose was to convey a message, in Biblical code, to the first-century churches oppressed by the "whore of Babylon" (the Roman Empire) that the Catholic Church would prevail against and survive long past the Roman Empire. The purpose of the book was to give hope and strengthen the faith of the violently oppressed Catholic Church. And the prophesy of the book was fulfilled when Constantine legalized Catholicism in the early fourth century.

Every symbol in Revelation had some Old Testament significance which would have been readily understood by the first-century Catholics, but would have had no meaning to those in the empire. Thus, if a copy of the book fell into the hands of the empire, those in the empire would have no idea what the book was about.

Be sure and wipe the spittle from the corner of your mouth and when you utter "man-made christian sects…"

BTW, do these lesser christians still get to heaven? (serious question)

There is no such thing as "lesser Christians." We are all on this Earth together. If we act with love and kindness, look out for one another and the world that we've been given, what should we fear? What punishment would await anyone, regardless of the man-made religion they practiced, if they were good people, good to others and cared for the Earth and everything on it? I honestly believe that Hell was invented to have people behave.

[Ibanez]

BTW, do these lesser christians still get to heaven? (serious question)

Catholics don't presume to limit the mercy or grace of God; however, the fullness of Christ is found within the Church he established and which, through the power of the Holy Spirit, has preserved -- even though this Church should have never survived the execution of a leader who had but a few followers. That this Church thrives 2000 years later is miraculous.

And there is no need to wipe. People who follow Luther, or Calvin, or any other man adhere to a church started by a man.

Christ didn't establish a church. The church was established after his death, in his name and based off his teachings. It was started by man. Man, may I remind you, is flawed.

[Ibanez]

All of you just shoot from the hip.

I posted a link to a Yale lecture. I sat through the entire 26 lectures of that class.

When any of you do that, let me know, and we'll talk.

Otherwise, do and say what you want. I don't have the time to waste debating things with the uninformed.

But note that only major world religion was formed and grew in a society which brutally repressed it and made membership in that church a capital offense (which was, in fact, a penalty which was routinely carrried out).

I didn't know that Yale lectures were the pinnacle of Catholic education. I'm not knocking it i'm just saying....that's pretty arrogant.

Btw, Judaism and it's followers have been brutally repressed. Maybe you didn't hear about an uppity Austrian burning, gassing and out right killing over a million or so in a span of less than 10 years. It's not a well known fact but it's true. What was his name? I forget..Snickelgruber? Maybe...i'll have to wikipedia that.