Do you still want the F-35?

[ASUG8]

I wish they would fire up the F-22 production lines again. With the Russian PAK-FA and Chinese J-20's coming online we could use more Gen 5 fighters. Let's face it - we could likely overwhelm Russian/Chinese defense systems with FA-18's, F-16's, and F-15's simply by sheer numbers (and a high attrition rate) but the Gen 5 fighters like the F-35 and F-22 have enough standoff ability to not need to encroach on enemy defenses as much as existing Gen3/4 fighters. You can argue about the effectiveness of the F-35 vs. the Eurofighter, the Mirage, the Rafale, etc. but the likelihood of our next war being fought WWI style with dogfighting isn't very high. The country possessing the best technology with standoff capability will be the one to win.

[CID1990]

Old Guy is right about the F-35. With unit cost coming down and the kinks getting ironed out (as happens with all new systems... let's remember that the first Allison- powered P-51s were dogs and only being considered for export in 1940-ish)

The issue I have with the F-35 right now is that it is nowhere near as proprietary platform as the F-22. The Russians and Chinese have been falling all over themselves to copy it, but they don't have the ability to do so except in a look-alike contest. It will stay that way as long as we keep the Raptor close and don't sell it to anyone.

The F-35 on the other hand is dependent on export sales to bring the unit costs down. That's a bad way to make a state of the art weapon system cost effective. Once that plane is in the hands of the UK, the EU, and possibly even Israel or states like Saudi Arabia, the risk of China or Russia being able to map it and its systems is going to go way up. And it shares a lot of key technologies with the F-22.

The real weakness in the F-35 is the business model, not the plane itself


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Col Hogan]

Old Guy is right about the F-35. With unit cost coming down and the kinks getting ironed out (as happens with all new systems... let's remember that the first Allison- powered P-51s were dogs and only being considered for export in 1940-ish)

The issue I have with the F-35 right now is that it is nowhere near as proprietary platform as the F-22. The Russians and Chinese have been falling all over themselves to copy it, but they don't have the ability to do so except in a look-alike contest. It will stay that way as long as we keep the Raptor close and don't sell it to anyone.

The F-35 on the other hand is dependent on export sales to bring the unit costs down. That's a bad way to make a state of the art weapon system cost effective. Once that plane is in the hands of the UK, the EU, and possibly even Israel or states like Saudi Arabia, the risk of China or Russia being able to map it and its systems is going to go way up. And it shares a lot of key technologies with the F-22.

The real weakness in the F-35 is the business model, not the plane itself


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Actually, the F-35 is the most proprietary platform I've ever seen...Lockheed Martin has taken great care to make sure they and they alone have their lock on so much of the technology within the jet...

Unit costs are coming down as production near Full Rate Capacity (FPC). Right now, while still in Low rate, the costs fluctuate...

I agree with you that the business model that the DoD allowed Lockheed to foist on us is the biggest problem facing this program...

[CID1990]

Old Guy is right about the F-35. With unit cost coming down and the kinks getting ironed out (as happens with all new systems... let's remember that the first Allison- powered P-51s were dogs and only being considered for export in 1940-ish)

The issue I have with the F-35 right now is that it is nowhere near as proprietary platform as the F-22. The Russians and Chinese have been falling all over themselves to copy it, but they don't have the ability to do so except in a look-alike contest. It will stay that way as long as we keep the Raptor close and don't sell it to anyone.

The F-35 on the other hand is dependent on export sales to bring the unit costs down. That's a bad way to make a state of the art weapon system cost effective. Once that plane is in the hands of the UK, the EU, and possibly even Israel or states like Saudi Arabia, the risk of China or Russia being able to map it and its systems is going to go way up. And it shares a lot of key technologies with the F-22.

The real weakness in the F-35 is the business model, not the plane itself


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Actually, the F-35 is the most proprietary platform I've ever seen...Lockheed Martin has taken great care to make sure they and they alone have their lock on so much of the technology within the jet...

Unit costs are coming down as production near Full Rate Capacity (FPC). Right now, while still in Low rate, the costs fluctuate...

I agree with you that the business model that the DoD allowed Lockheed to foist on us is the biggest problem facing this program...

The proprietary tech that is most at risk here is the tech that the F-35 shares with the F-22, as in materials composition

The Russians and Chinese dont really have a competitor for the F-35 (yet) and their answers to the F-22 are far inferior. My prediction is that they will close that gap when they get their hands on a piece or two of the F-35... which we are basically setting up for them


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ibanez]

Old Guy is right about the F-35. With unit cost coming down and the kinks getting ironed out (as happens with all new systems... let's remember that the first Allison- powered P-51s were dogs and only being considered for export in 1940-ish)

The issue I have with the F-35 right now is that it is nowhere near as proprietary platform as the F-22. The Russians and Chinese have been falling all over themselves to copy it, but they don't have the ability to do so except in a look-alike contest. It will stay that way as long as we keep the Raptor close and don't sell it to anyone.

The F-35 on the other hand is dependent on export sales to bring the unit costs down. That's a bad way to make a state of the art weapon system cost effective. Once that plane is in the hands of the UK, the EU, and possibly even Israel or states like Saudi Arabia, the risk of China or Russia being able to map it and its systems is going to go way up. And it shares a lot of key technologies with the F-22.

The real weakness in the F-35 is the business model, not the plane itself


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Actually, the F-35 is the most proprietary platform I've ever seen...Lockheed Martin has taken great care to make sure they and they alone have their lock on so much of the technology within the jet...

Unit costs are coming down as production near Full Rate Capacity (FPC). Right now, while still in Low rate, the costs fluctuate...

I agree with you that the business model that the DoD allowed Lockheed to foist on us is the biggest problem facing this program...

NO WAY! You mean as the project has progressed through the Life Cycle that costs are going down (as will overall program risk)? I'M SHOCKED! SHOCKED!!!

The JPO, at least when I was with it in 2010-2012, wasn't well managed. There were too many sycophants and people wanting to secure lucrative contracts and positions with Lockheed. It seems they've turned the page and have some good leaders in there that are looking at this project holistically.

[ASUG8]

The proprietary tech that is most at risk here is the tech that the F-35 shares with the F-22, as in materials composition

The Russians and Chinese dont really have a competitor for the F-35 (yet) and their answers to the F-22 are far inferior. My prediction is that they will close that gap when they get their hands on a piece or two of the F-35... which we are basically setting up for them


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm pretty sure the J-20 is mostly cobbled together from hacked and heisted F-35 plans. The saving grace is that the J-20 is built with Chinese quality control also.

[Col Hogan]

The proprietary tech that is most at risk here is the tech that the F-35 shares with the F-22, as in materials composition

The Russians and Chinese dont really have a competitor for the F-35 (yet) and their answers to the F-22 are far inferior. My prediction is that they will close that gap when they get their hands on a piece or two of the F-35... which we are basically setting up for them


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm pretty sure the J-20 is mostly cobbled together from hacked and heisted F-35 plans. The saving grace is that the J-20 is built with Chinese quality control also.

As CID said, the best they can do is cosmetically copy the F-35 (i.e. Angles of panels, stabilizers, tail fins, etc)...there is stuff under the hood that they cannot duplicate...CID is worried that once our "Allies" get their versions home, then the Chinese and Russians will gain access to reverse engineer those things...

The U.S. versions will always be a step or two ahead of the FMS (Foreign Military Sales) versions...and Lockheed has already taken great care to watch out for their "stuff" through support contracts...I don't think CID is completely wrong, I just think we have learned a lesson or two on protecting the technology...

[ASUG8]

I'm pretty sure the J-20 is mostly cobbled together from hacked and heisted F-35 plans. The saving grace is that the J-20 is built with Chinese quality control also.

As CID said, the best they can do is cosmetically copy the F-35 (i.e. Angles of panels, stabilizers, tail fins, etc)...there is stuff under the hood that they cannot duplicate...CID is worried that once our "Allies" get their versions home, then the Chinese and Russians will gain access to reverse engineer those things...

The U.S. versions will always be a step or two ahead of the FMS (Foreign Military Sales) versions...and Lockheed has already taken great care to watch out for their "stuff" through support contracts...I don't think CID is completely wrong, I just think we have learned a lesson or two on protecting the technology...

I really kind of hope there's a fully unlocked US version and the somewhat less capable version for the rest of the world.

[Col Hogan]

As CID said, the best they can do is cosmetically copy the F-35 (i.e. Angles of panels, stabilizers, tail fins, etc)...there is stuff under the hood that they cannot duplicate...CID is worried that once our "Allies" get their versions home, then the Chinese and Russians will gain access to reverse engineer those things...

The U.S. versions will always be a step or two ahead of the FMS (Foreign Military Sales) versions...and Lockheed has already taken great care to watch out for their "stuff" through support contracts...I don't think CID is completely wrong, I just think we have learned a lesson or two on protecting the technology...

I really kind of hope there's a fully unlocked US version and the somewhat less capable version for the rest of the world.

"Unlocked"???

[ASUG8]

I really kind of hope there's a fully unlocked US version and the somewhat less capable version for the rest of the world.

"Unlocked"???

You know what I mean. I would hope that the US version has some unique code, more capable radar, special tweaks, etc. that makes it a bit better than what the rest of the world is getting. I thought I read something about how the F-16's and other fighters we sell to other countries isn't quite up to the same spec as the US version, but I could be mistaken. Also, since so many countries are helping shoulder the development costs on the F-35 (which is a new paradigm) I would assume they would demand that they get exactly what the US is getting.

[CID1990]

I'm pretty sure the J-20 is mostly cobbled together from hacked and heisted F-35 plans. The saving grace is that the J-20 is built with Chinese quality control also.

As CID said, the best they can do is cosmetically copy the F-35 (i.e. Angles of panels, stabilizers, tail fins, etc)...there is stuff under the hood that they cannot duplicate...CID is worried that once our "Allies" get their versions home, then the Chinese and Russians will gain access to reverse engineer those things...

The U.S. versions will always be a step or two ahead of the FMS (Foreign Military Sales) versions...and Lockheed has already taken great care to watch out for their "stuff" through support contracts...I don't think CID is completely wrong, I just think we have learned a lesson or two on protecting the technology...

Colonel-

I don't think we've learned ANYTHING

These arent people with a sense of history we are talking about..

these a pencil necked engineers and their pencil necked managers

God love 'em... I cant do what they do.. I cant conceptualize the way they do..

But we sold the biggest pieces of sh1t to our BEST FRIENDS on the face of the earth... the Allison-engine P-51, and we tried to sell the P-38 to them without the classified superchargers... the UK was wise to us by then... "special relationship" indeed

So now, we will give them the "fully unlocked, achievement unlocked: full American version! of this hughly proprietary aircraft.

We were properly cautious in 1941. Today, it's all about being friends. We are fvxked across the board. Zero leverage economically, militarily, ir politically

Nat Geodud a composite photo of the "average" human being... if you took every person in the world and blended them into one.... it was a Han Chinese male

That's about right

We need to be fighting them on every front possible.... down to paper clips...

Because the future is Chinese, my friend


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pwns]

Well, at least you can't simply do X-ray crystallography on a piece of the plane and figure out how to make the alloys. Unless we've given away those secrets as well.

[houndawg]

Well, at least you can't simply do X-ray crystallography on a piece of the plane and figure out how to make the alloys. Unless we've given away those secrets as well.

You'd still need access to exotic and hard to get rare Earth elements even if you could. Oh, wait..

[Col Hogan]

This awesome shot, showing a A-10C Warthog bristling with a diverse array of weaponry, and its belly a sooted and greasy mess from continued firing of its GAU-8 Avenger 30mm cannon, is a reminder of just how relevant this aircraft still is today. And if the USAF had its way years ago, it wouldn't have had the chance to prove that it can be among the most deadly platforms when it comes to tearing apart Islamic State fighters and their material in Iraq and Syria, and it has been very busy doing just that.

Seen under its wings from right to left are a pair of AIM-9M Sidewinders, a AN/AAQ-28 LITENING targeting pod, a 500lb GBU-12 laser guided bomb, a 500lb GBU-54 Laser JDAM, a 2,000lb GBU-31 JDAM, a AGM-65 Maverick air-to-ground missile, a LAU-131 2.75 inch rocket pod with seven rockets (or laser guided rockets), and another GBU-12 to round out the load-out. Of course, there's also the big drum of ammunition we can't see that holds 1,174 rounds of coke bottle-sized PGU-14 armored piercing incendiary or PGU-13 explosive incendiary ammunition. For ripping up the Islamic State, the PGU-13 is the flavor of choice.

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/12 ... uring-isis

The F-35 is going to be a good fighter, but it will never do what the A-10 can do...

[CID1990]

This awesome shot, showing a A-10C Warthog bristling with a diverse array of weaponry, and its belly a sooted and greasy mess from continued firing of its GAU-8 Avenger 30mm cannon, is a reminder of just how relevant this aircraft still is today. And if the USAF had its way years ago, it wouldn't have had the chance to prove that it can be among the most deadly platforms when it comes to tearing apart Islamic State fighters and their material in Iraq and Syria, and it has been very busy doing just that.

Seen under its wings from right to left are a pair of AIM-9M Sidewinders, a AN/AAQ-28 LITENING targeting pod, a 500lb GBU-12 laser guided bomb, a 500lb GBU-54 Laser JDAM, a 2,000lb GBU-31 JDAM, a AGM-65 Maverick air-to-ground missile, a LAU-131 2.75 inch rocket pod with seven rockets (or laser guided rockets), and another GBU-12 to round out the load-out. Of course, there's also the big drum of ammunition we can't see that holds 1,174 rounds of coke bottle-sized PGU-14 armored piercing incendiary or PGU-13 explosive incendiary ammunition. For ripping up the Islamic State, the PGU-13 is the flavor of choice.

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/12 ... uring-isis

The F-35 is going to be a good fighter, but it will never do what the A-10 can do...

The A-10 was designed in a day before phased array radars hopped onto aircraft.

It was also designed with the assumption that it would be deployed in places where we enjoy air superiority.

In terms of the ability to blow the sh1t out of things on the ground, it is largely unrivaled except by the Su-XX Frogfoot.

But that "wheel of death" thing they do as a defense against enemy air superiority aircraft is largely fantasy. And with F-22s and F-35s that literally number in the hundreds (instead of the thousands)...

The A-10, on a symmetrical battlefield with an opponent that can shoot back with more than AK-47s is pretty much DRT

(Dead right there)

[Col Hogan]

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/12 ... uring-isis

The F-35 is going to be a good fighter, but it will never do what the A-10 can do...

The A-10 was designed in a day before phased array radars hopped onto aircraft.

It was also designed with the assumption that it would be deployed in places where we enjoy air superiority.

In terms of the ability to blow the sh1t out of things on the ground, it is largely unrivaled except by the Su-XX Frogfoot.

But that "wheel of death" thing they do as a defense against enemy air superiority aircraft is largely fantasy. And with F-22s and F-35s that literally number in the hundreds (instead of the thousands)...

The A-10, on a symmetrical battlefield with an opponent that can shoot back with more than AK-47s is pretty much DRT

(Dead right there)

No one has ever said the A-10 can do what the F-22 can do, or what it is said the F-35 will do...that would be foolish...

My issue with the fighter mafia running the Air Force is, for years they have been selling the F-35 as a replacement for the A-10 and F-16...knowing full well it cannot do most of the missions the A-10 does...

The F-35 goes too fast to do most of the CAS (Close Air Support) missions effectively, and it's gun (GAU-8 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NvIJvPj_pjE )is no where as good as the Gun on the F-35, whichcarries way too little ammo...

One other point...the A-10 was designed to fly into contested airspace on day one...it was designed to go into the Fulda Gap after Soviet tanks that traveled with AA support...yes, radar on fighters has improved exponentially, but the Warthog can stand up to more than an AK-47...

[93henfan]

Actually, the F-35 is the most proprietary platform I've ever seen...Lockheed Martin has taken great care to make sure they and they alone have their lock on so much of the technology within the jet...

Unit costs are coming down as production near Full Rate Capacity (FPC). Right now, while still in Low rate, the costs fluctuate...

I agree with you that the business model that the DoD allowed Lockheed to foist on us is the biggest problem facing this program...

NO WAY! You mean as the project has progressed through the Life Cycle that costs are going down (as will overall program risk)? I'M SHOCKED! SHOCKED!!!

The JPO, at least when I was with it in 2010-2012, wasn't well managed. There were too many sycophants and people wanting to secure lucrative contracts and positions with Lockheed. It seems they've turned the page and have some good leaders in there that are looking at this project holistically.

Admit it. You majored in Corporate Buzzwords and Jargon at Chants Up, didn't you?

[mrklean]

As CID said, the best they can do is cosmetically copy the F-35 (i.e. Angles of panels, stabilizers, tail fins, etc)...there is stuff under the hood that they cannot duplicate...CID is worried that once our "Allies" get their versions home, then the Chinese and Russians will gain access to reverse engineer those things...

The U.S. versions will always be a step or two ahead of the FMS (Foreign Military Sales) versions...and Lockheed has already taken great care to watch out for their "stuff" through support contracts...I don't think CID is completely wrong, I just think we have learned a lesson or two on protecting the technology...

Colonel-

I don't think we've learned ANYTHING

These arent people with a sense of history we are talking about..

these a pencil necked engineers and their pencil necked managers

God love 'em... I cant do what they do.. I cant conceptualize the way they do..

But we sold the biggest pieces of sh1t to our BEST FRIENDS on the face of the earth... the Allison-engine P-51, and we tried to sell the P-38 to them without the classified superchargers... the UK was wise to us by then... "special relationship" indeed

So now, we will give them the "fully unlocked, achievement unlocked: full American version! of this hughly proprietary aircraft.

We were properly cautious in 1941. Today, it's all about being friends. We are fvxked across the board. Zero leverage economically, militarily, ir politically

Nat Geodud a composite photo of the "average" human being... if you took every person in the world and blended them into one.... it was a Han Chinese male

That's about right

We need to be fighting them on every front possible.... down to paper clips...

Because the future is Chinese, my friend


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The P-51 was the first Joint Strike Fighter

[Ibanez]

NO WAY! You mean as the project has progressed through the Life Cycle that costs are going down (as will overall program risk)? I'M SHOCKED! SHOCKED!!!

The JPO, at least when I was with it in 2010-2012, wasn't well managed. There were too many sycophants and people wanting to secure lucrative contracts and positions with Lockheed. It seems they've turned the page and have some good leaders in there that are looking at this project holistically.

Admit it. You majored in Corporate Buzzwords and Jargon at Chants Up, didn't you?

Quit being a dick. It's growing tiresome...

[CID1990]

The A-10 was designed in a day before phased array radars hopped onto aircraft.

It was also designed with the assumption that it would be deployed in places where we enjoy air superiority.

In terms of the ability to blow the sh1t out of things on the ground, it is largely unrivaled except by the Su-XX Frogfoot.

But that "wheel of death" thing they do as a defense against enemy air superiority aircraft is largely fantasy. And with F-22s and F-35s that literally number in the hundreds (instead of the thousands)...

The A-10, on a symmetrical battlefield with an opponent that can shoot back with more than AK-47s is pretty much DRT

(Dead right there)

No one has ever said the A-10 can do what the F-22 can do, or what it is said the F-35 will do...that would be foolish...

My issue with the fighter mafia running the Air Force is, for years they have been selling the F-35 as a replacement for the A-10 and F-16...knowing full well it cannot do most of the missions the A-10 does...

The F-35 goes too fast to do most of the CAS (Close Air Support) missions effectively, and it's gun (GAU-8 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NvIJvPj_pjE )is no where as good as the Gun on the F-35, whichcarries way too little ammo...

One other point...the A-10 was designed to fly into contested airspace on day one...it was designed to go into the Fulda Gap after Soviet tanks that traveled with AA support...yes, radar on fighters has improved exponentially, but the Warthog can stand up to more than an AK-47...

I'm not claiming that the A-10 should be able to perform the role of an air superiority fighter

What I'm getting at is that we have abrogated our ability to deny airspace to enemies with comparable capabilities. By opting away from platforms that can be purchased and produced in much greater numbers. Yes, the A-10 can survive more than an AK-47, but it cannot survive a Su-27, or even an unopposed Gen 2/3 fighter like the MiG-29. And the A-10 will meet them face to face on today's battlefield.

The F-22 and F-35 are sh1t hot but we don't have nearly enough of them. The A-10 was certainly meant to shoot T-72s rolling through the Fulda Gap - but with a cloud of F-15s overhead. The Zoomies say that two F-22s can take out a squadron of Su-27s from a standoff position with the aid of a B-1 "mothership" carrying a hundred or so AAMs. I don't buy that strategy or doctrine and I suspect, like most other war plans, will go out the window the minute after the first shots are fired.

What we need in that role isn't a shoe-horned F-35, but it also isn't an A-10. We need another ground attack aircraft; one with better evasive technology (stealth) and a greater top speed for egress.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Col Hogan]

The B-1 "armada" plan went out the window at first contact with the green eye-shade MOFOs at OSD...so no worries there...

The A-10 can and will carry self-defense weapons...like AIM-9S...and use the radar capability of AWACS to find targets...so Gen 2/3 fighters are an issue, but the Warthogs can sting them...

If...IF...the Air Force gets its complete "buy" (~2400) of the F-35, then with the 180 or so F-22s, we might maintain Air Superiority over some of the battlefield...but definitely not Air Dominance like we have since WWII...and the A-10 could be very useful...

By the way, the tests are on soon looking for a "Light Attack Aircraft" to fill the nich of CAS in a low-threat environment...

http://worldwarwings.com/us-air-forces- ... n+scorpion

[93henfan]

Admit it. You majored in Corporate Buzzwords and Jargon at Chants Up, didn't you?

Quit being a dick. It's growing tiresome...

Well, pardon the hell out of me. Rough weekend?

I'll take a break for a bit.

[Col Hogan]

Quit being a dick. It's growing tiresome...

Well, pardon the hell out of me. Rough weekend?

I'll take a break for a bit.

What's the over/under on your "break" lasting more than a day???

[Ivytalk]

Col. Hogan for SecDef!

[Col Hogan]

Col. Hogan for SecDef!

A thankless job that is currently filled with an outstanding man...but thanks for the consideration...