Is Iran an enemy to the United States?

[kalm]

Point of clarification, governments and people are no synonymous FWIW

Is the Iranian government an enemy of the US government? Probably. Elements of both parties have been "at war" for decades.

But the Iranian people and the American people? Debatable.

Thousands of Iranians went to college here. Many stayed and many more wanted to.

Again, as cited earlier. There are more Iranian legislators with American PhD's than US Senators.

[kalm]

Iran is only our enemy as much as we allow them to be. There really aren't any effective sanctions against them that prevent them from financing terrorist organizations or seeking the bomb.

The bottom line is that as long as the mullacracy exists in Iran, they will act against the West's interests and they will pursue the bomb.

And between the people who consider them an existential threat (they aren't if we don't allow them to be) and those that believe that the "trust us" super secret glad handing approach will work are equally deluded.

The key to Iran is containment in terms of the influence of their security services. The key to preventing them getting the bomb is to negotiate with them AFTER sending the B2s over one of their nuke sites, and then sending them again and again each time they walk away from the table.

What the B-2s should be dropping on Iran is Levis and Rock n Roll CDs. Half the nation is under 35 years old and couldn't care less about fundamentalist mullahs.

And porn.

[DSUrocks07]

Thousands of Iranians went to college here. Many stayed and many more wanted to.

Again, as cited earlier. There are more Iranian legislators with American PhD's than US Senators.

Meh...becoming a legislator seems to be a waste of a perfectly good PhD to me, but to each their own.

And also, PhDs in what academic studies? If its anything other than political science (if that's even a thing), then their talents would be better suited in other endeavors.

But then again, we live in a generation where an art major with $100k in student loan debt is considered a good investment.

[CID1990]

The bottom line is that as long as the mullacracy exists in Iran, they will act against the West's interests and they will pursue the bomb.

The key is the mullacracy. Period. Not "containment."

The key to Iran is containment

No. The key is to try to foment dissent and revolt so that there will no longer be a mullocracy.

The negotiations aren't about sitting down with Iran and convincing them to give up their nuclear program (into which they've sunk far more money than they can afford). That ain't happening.

Sanctions have crippled Iran's economy - but, the mullocracy can simply point to the Western Devils and say that their struggles are because of the US, Israel, etc. They use the sanctions to consolidate power (also, see Putin and Russia). With negotiations - the mullocracy had an opportunity to weaken or loosen sanctions and their people know that. If the sanctions were to fail (and, the likelihood was always that they would probably fail) it would be damaging to the mullacracy and (hopefully) cause more to start pressuring for democracy.

With the Republican **** show - that's out of the question. The negotiations can fail and the mullacracy can simply point to the letter as evidence that the Western Devils never meant to negotiate, that the sanctions are just hatred for Islam, blah blah blah (and, that's already what Iran is doing).

You couldnt be more incorrect, and theres no graph that can rehab your argument.

The whole "foment change - make everybody just like us" pablum is where progs like you and neocons like Scoop Jackson jump right into the very same ideological bed.

No amount of Radio Free America or sanctions or propaganda is going to bring a change in Iran, and we really should not give a sh1t. The only things we need to concern ourselves with is keeping the Iranians in their box, and denying them the bomb. There expedient ways to do this in a manner the mullahs understand. Outside of that I dont give two sh1ts if they are a mullacracy, a death cult or worship a big fvcking owl in the woods.

As an aside, I find it amusing that somehow there is ANY deal that can be made with a regime that gave us the textbook examples of how to NOT honor the most universal and basic international conventions. Big bad Republicans indeed!

[houndawg]

Again, as cited earlier. There are more Iranian legislators with American PhD's than US Senators.

Meh...becoming a legislator seems to be a waste of a perfectly good PhD to me, but to each their own.

And also, PhDs in what academic studies? If its anything other than political science (if that's even a thing), then their talents would be better suited in other endeavors.

But then again, we live in a generation where an art major with $100k in student loan debt is considered a good investment.

Engineering mostly, if my college experience was normal. Everybody seems to forget that we were great pals with Iran at one time.

[houndawg]

Again, as cited earlier. There are more Iranian legislators with American PhD's than US Senators.

Meh...becoming a legislator seems to be a waste of a perfectly good PhD to me, but to each their own.

And also, PhDs in what academic studies? If its anything other than political science (if that's even a thing), then their talents would be better suited in other endeavors.

But then again, we live in a generation where an art major with $100k in student loan debt is considered a good investment.

Its a great investment if you loaned him the money. Little pissant cant default like the big boys.

[Skjellyfetti]

The only things we need to concern ourselves with is keeping the Iranians in their box, and denying them the bomb. There expedient ways to do this in a manner the mullahs understand.

We've been doing that for about 40 years and it hasn't worked.

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

So................just like the lefts answer to the war on poverty (dumping money on it).......we should just keep waiting.

[kalm]

So................just like the lefts answer to the war on poverty (dumping money on it).......we should just keep waiting.

Yeah…lets just nuke em. That won't cost us a dime in the long run.

[CID1990]

The only things we need to concern ourselves with is keeping the Iranians in their box, and denying them the bomb. There expedient ways to do this in a manner the mullahs understand.

We've been doing that for about 40 years and it hasn't worked.

Actually, yes it did work. Just because we have suddenly lost our resolve in the last 10 years over their nuclear program and have telegraphed that military force is off the table doesn't mean that your method- tried and failed numerous times with various regimes- is anything other than recycled "bring them democracy" neoconservative crap.

[DSUrocks07]

So................just like the lefts answer to the war on poverty (dumping money on it).......we should just keep waiting.

Yeah…lets just nuke em. That won't cost us a dime in the long run.

Side note:

Has anyone ever studied the effect of nuclear radiation on oil?

[kalm]

We've been doing that for about 40 years and it hasn't worked.

Actually, yes it did work. Just because we have suddenly lost our resolve in the last 10 years over their nuclear program and have telegraphed that military force is off the table doesn't mean that your method- tried and failed numerous times with various regimes- is anything other than recycled "bring them democracy" neoconservative crap.

How have we telegraphed the military force is off the table compared to before 10 years ago?

[houndawg]

Actually, yes it did work. Just because we have suddenly lost our resolve in the last 10 years over their nuclear program and have telegraphed that military force is off the table doesn't mean that your method- tried and failed numerous times with various regimes- is anything other than recycled "bring them democracy" neoconservative crap.

How have we telegraphed the military force is off the table compared to before 10 years ago?

He must be referring to the way we let bin Laden get away while pulling our forces out of the mid-east and refusing to go it alone regardless of what Old Europe thinks.

[andy7171]

The only things we need to concern ourselves with is keeping the Iranians in their box, and denying them the bomb. There expedient ways to do this in a manner the mullahs understand.

We've been doing that for about 40 years and it hasn't worked.

Do they have the bomb?
Have they waged war on anyone outside their region?
How so?

[93henfan]

So................just like the lefts answer to the war on poverty (dumping money on it).......we should just keep waiting.

Yeah…lets just nuke em. That won't cost us a dime in the long run.

That picture intrigues me. One of the basic tenets of war is dispersion. ISIS uses it to their advantage. The muslin civilians in that picture are gathered by the tens of thousands in an area that appears prone to being bombed. What the hell are they thinking? That's an opponent's dream right there. You could make strawberry jam out of that mob in a few short seconds with a battery shot of HE-VT.

[Skjellyfetti]

They're waiting in "line" for food.

[houndawg]

The key is the mullacracy. Period. Not "containment."



No. The key is to try to foment dissent and revolt so that there will no longer be a mullocracy.

The negotiations aren't about sitting down with Iran and convincing them to give up their nuclear program (into which they've sunk far more money than they can afford). That ain't happening.

Sanctions have crippled Iran's economy - but, the mullocracy can simply point to the Western Devils and say that their struggles are because of the US, Israel, etc. They use the sanctions to consolidate power (also, see Putin and Russia). With negotiations - the mullocracy had an opportunity to weaken or loosen sanctions and their people know that. If the sanctions were to fail (and, the likelihood was always that they would probably fail) it would be damaging to the mullacracy and (hopefully) cause more to start pressuring for democracy.

With the Republican **** show - that's out of the question. The negotiations can fail and the mullacracy can simply point to the letter as evidence that the Western Devils never meant to negotiate, that the sanctions are just hatred for Islam, blah blah blah (and, that's already what Iran is doing).

You couldnt be more incorrect, and theres no graph that can rehab your argument.

The whole "foment change - make everybody just like us" pablum is where progs like you and neocons like Scoop Jackson jump right into the very same ideological bed.

No amount of Radio Free America or sanctions or propaganda is going to bring a change in Iran, and we really should not give a sh1t. The only things we need to concern ourselves with is keeping the Iranians in their box, and denying them the bomb. There expedient ways to do this in a manner the mullahs understand. Outside of that I dont give two sh1ts if they are a mullacracy, a death cult or worship a big fvcking owl in the woods.

As an aside, I find it amusing that somehow there is ANY deal that can be made with a regime that gave us the textbook examples of how to NOT honor the most universal and basic international conventions. Big bad Republicans indeed!

Even a blind hog finds an acorn once in a while.

Back in the day we didn't need to foment change very much because everybody wanted to be like us, (not that we didn't foment change for bidniz reasons anyway), nowdays we don't need to because not so many want to be like us.

[mrklean]

Every country is an Enemy of the United States of America.

[houndawg]

Tough shit, we told them along time ago that we do it our way, with them or alone.

[CID1990]

Actually, yes it did work. Just because we have suddenly lost our resolve in the last 10 years over their nuclear program and have telegraphed that military force is off the table doesn't mean that your method- tried and failed numerous times with various regimes- is anything other than recycled "bring them democracy" neoconservative crap.

How have we telegraphed the military force is off the table compared to before 10 years ago?

We started by over extending ourselves in Iraq and Afghanistan with nation building. Countries like Libya were a little cowed by what we did, and guys like Gaddafi started making sure we knew he was "giving up" his nuke programs (heh).

Iran wasn't fooled though. They put a lot of treasure into helping both insurgencies with ID technology. We knew it, and they knew we knew it, and we did nothing about it.

Now for the last 6 years we've been playing footie with Iran, claiming that "no option is off the table" while drawing red lines in Syria that go ignored and unenforced. The Iranians KNOW the military option isn't on the table, that we don't have the stomach for it, and that's one reason they are negotiating a "deal", because they know it will have no teeth and just buy them time.

I'm not sure whether a nuclear Iran would be the end of the world or not. The Norks are much goofier
And they have the bomb. But the Saudis are now engaging the south Koreans for nuclear technology because they.no longer feel they can look to the West to keep things in balance over there. Regardless of our opinion of the Saudis (I'm not a fan), that has the hallmarks of some very dangerous times coming.

[Chizzang]

How have we telegraphed the military force is off the table compared to before 10 years ago?

We started by over extending ourselves in Iraq and Afghanistan with nation building. Countries like Libya were a little cowed by what we did, and guys like Gaddafi started making sure we knew he was "giving up" his nuke programs (heh).

Iran wasn't fooled though. They put a lot of treasure into helping both insurgencies with ID technology. We knew it, and they knew we knew it, and we did nothing about it.

Now for the last 6 years we've been playing footie with Iran, claiming that "no option is off the table" while drawing red lines in Syria that go ignored and unenforced. The Iranians KNOW the military option isn't on the table, that we don't have the stomach for it, and that's one reason they are negotiating a "deal", because they know it will have no teeth and just buy them time.

I'm not sure whether a nuclear Iran would be the end of the world or not. The Norks are much goofier
And they have the bomb. But the Saudis are now engaging the south Koreans for nuclear technology because they.no longer feel they can look to the West to keep things in balance over there. Regardless of our opinion of the Saudis (I'm not a fan), that has the hallmarks of some very dangerous times coming.

I just don't buy all the "everything was perfectly under control right up until 15 minutes ago" bullshIt that is the never ending hot topic of every Republican looking for re-election

a while back we thought everybody had Nukes (Who knew nobody did..? go figure)
Apparently we knew so little about who had 'em and who didn't we thought Saddam was ready to fire 400 Kiloton thermonuclear MIRV devices with Trident III tracking priority structure any minute now...

Turns out it was a few piles of garbage a broken Alpha Emitter and PU238 dumped in a hole... (so close dammit)

Pardon me if I don't get all loose in the lower intestines from this latest round of Advanced Intel

[houndawg]

How have we telegraphed the military force is off the table compared to before 10 years ago?

We started by over extending ourselves in Iraq and Afghanistan with nation building. Countries like Libya were a little cowed by what we did, and guys like Gaddafi started making sure we knew he was "giving up" his nuke programs (heh).

Iran wasn't fooled though. They put a lot of treasure into helping both insurgencies with ID technology. We knew it, and they knew we knew it, and we did nothing about it.

Now for the last 6 years we've been playing footie with Iran, claiming that "no option is off the table" while drawing red lines in Syria that go ignored and unenforced. The Iranians KNOW the military option isn't on the table, that we don't have the stomach for it, and that's one reason they are negotiating a "deal", because they know it will have no teeth and just buy them time.

I'm not sure whether a nuclear Iran would be the end of the world or not. The Norks are much goofier
And they have the bomb. But the Saudis are now engaging the south Koreans for nuclear technology because they.no longer feel they can look to the West to keep things in balance over there. Regardless of our opinion of the Saudis (I'm not a fan), that has the hallmarks of some very dangerous times coming.

Dangerous for them, not so much for us. We have lots of oil right here.

[houndawg]

We started by over extending ourselves in Iraq and Afghanistan with nation building. Countries like Libya were a little cowed by what we did, and guys like Gaddafi started making sure we knew he was "giving up" his nuke programs (heh).

Iran wasn't fooled though. They put a lot of treasure into helping both insurgencies with ID technology. We knew it, and they knew we knew it, and we did nothing about it.

Now for the last 6 years we've been playing footie with Iran, claiming that "no option is off the table" while drawing red lines in Syria that go ignored and unenforced. The Iranians KNOW the military option isn't on the table, that we don't have the stomach for it, and that's one reason they are negotiating a "deal", because they know it will have no teeth and just buy them time.

I'm not sure whether a nuclear Iran would be the end of the world or not. The Norks are much goofier
And they have the bomb. But the Saudis are now engaging the south Koreans for nuclear technology because they.no longer feel they can look to the West to keep things in balance over there. Regardless of our opinion of the Saudis (I'm not a fan), that has the hallmarks of some very dangerous times coming.

I just don't buy all the "everything was perfectly under control right up until 15 minutes ago" bullshIt that is the never ending hot topic of every Republican looking for re-election

a while back we thought everybody had Nukes (Who knew nobody did..? go figure)
Apparently we knew so little about who had 'em and who didn't we thought Saddam was ready to fire 400 Kiloton thermonuclear MIRV devices with Trident III tracking priority structure any minute now...

Turns out it was a few piles of garbage a broken Alpha Emitter and PU238 dumped in a hole... (so close dammit)

Pardon me if I don't get all loose in the lower intestines from this latest round of Advanced Intel

And while they're busy pondering what a paper tiger we are they haven't forgotten that the only country that has used nukes on and enemy did it twice in three days on civilian targets.

[Skjellyfetti]

Pardon me if I don't get all loose in the lower intestines from this latest round of Advanced Intel

Not to mention the fact that the "latest intel" has been saying they're "two or three years" away from the bomb for about 20 years.

[Chizzang]

Pardon me if I don't get all loose in the lower intestines from this latest round of Advanced Intel

Not to mention the fact that the "latest intel" has been saying they're "two or three years" away from the bomb for about 20 years.

Indeed,
If Saddam's pile of rubbish and 12 grams of expired plutonium constitutes a global nuclear threat - then - yes indeed Iran is a regular any minute now cover your ears and for sure in 62 years they'll have the bomb

Iran and the Cornell university of Anthropology department are on the same "bomb" timeline apparently

The CIA is all over this - I feel safer already