Dems Should Move to the Left

[Grizalltheway]

Are you saying that assaulting and killing people in the name of politics isn't as bad as protesting and making a mess?

The funny thing is that you think you made a point.

The funny thing is that I replied to your nonsense at all. Sometimes I just can't help myself.

[YoUDeeMan]

The funny thing is that you think you made a point.

The funny thing is that I replied to your nonsense at all. Sometimes I just can't help myself.

It is quite obvious that you can't help yourself.

[Grizalltheway]

Just call me a fine young cannibal.

[CAA Flagship]

Just call me a fine young cannibal.

You're a fine young cannibal.

[UNI88]

Kalm, how do you define progressive? To me a progressive is someone who is open-minded, respectful of other opinions, champions new ideas and generally tries to make things better for all. The so-called progressive faction of the Democratic Party fails to meet many of those standards:
- They're not open-minded, they believe they are right and all conservatives, Republicans, Trump supporters, etc. are wrong. They decry "bigoted" Christians for their attitudes toward gays and others but will overlook Islamic attitudes toward gays, women, etc. to prove that they are open-minded.
- Not only do they not respect the opinions of the right but they have a hard time respecting the opinions of establishment Democrats.
- They don't champion new ideas - they're essentially promoting a state managed economy with a goal of equal outcomes; i.e. a soviet model which is a proven failure.
- They're not trying to make things better for all, they would prefer to pull the top end back down toward the middle in order to achieve equal outcomes even if the resulting average is lower than it is now. They're also willing to demonize the white male as the root cause of all of our woes. Many of them are also willing to throw Israel under the bus in their support of the Palestinian cause.

Those are some of my issues with Bernie, Warren, Ellison and the like. Bottom line, these so called progressives aren't really very progressive.

Well that's certainly a fair assessment... Can I now paint unrealistic, selfish, tin foil hat wearing libertarians with the same brush strokes? Hey, I kind of like Rand Paul, but he once took medicare payments as an optometrist! Reagan hated government so much he decided to raise taxes 11 times and increase spending more than all presidents before him combined!

Labels are a tricky thing. Ideologies change, and definitions get co-opted. Some of your accusations are fair points but some are hair-on-fire hyperbole. Hint: I'm guessing Bernie's goal is less the Five Year Plans and more the Square Deal.

Both Obama and Hillary have rhetorically claimed progressivism while clinging to the status quo from a policy standpoint.

As Ganny likes to point out, I'm a hopeless romantic for the bygone years of Midwest chataquas and hard working farmers rising up to fight the monied interests of East Coast bankers and entrenched power of the robber barons. When progressives believed in a system that, as you say, improved things for all while preserving our national heritage, and laying a solid groundwork for future generations. (If I were mimicking you here, which I swear I'm not, this would be the point where I'd say small l libertarians won't be happy until 99% of the wealth is consolidated into the hands of small few and we're all living in company towns. )

But I won't hold my breath under the current duopoly and pay to play system that the Democratic Party is going to produce anything close to that. That's why I no longer vote for them.

To me, progressive simply means improvement as a society. Liberal means open mindedness. I will continue to be hopeful in those two ideals while remaining heavily cynical about the entire deal.

So back to my questions.

The Democratic Party is progressive enough? It has drifted away from concerns for Main Street, middle America, and the plight of the middle class. CID has written extensively on this elitism and he's spot on.

What does a non-populist economic policy that appeals to independent working class or Jill Stein voters look like?

Since I essentially have 4 "accusations" and some are fair and some hyperbole, it's reasonable to assume that the split is 2 and 2. IMO, the first 2 are hard to dispute based on results of the primaries and election. They also apply just as much to Trump supporters/tea partiers and the Republican establishment. On the 3rd "accusation", you have more faith in Bernie and the so-called progressives than I do. I think Bernie styles himself a modern Che (who ruthlessly silenced dissent and ran gulags) when he was really a back-bench Senator with few accomplishments on his resume. The 4th "accusation" can be debated but should not be dismissed as hyperbole anymore than claims of bigotry against some Trump supporters should be dismissed as hyperbole.

If to you "progressive simply means improvement as a society" and "liberal means open mindedness" then I can make a strong case that the so called progressives definitely aren't liberal and that their progressive policies will hurt society in the long run.

Is the Democratic Party is progressive enough? No. You're right, it has drifted away from concerns for Main Street, middle America, and the plight of the middle class. It has been focused on Wall Street and coastal elites while whipping up the anger of the "aggrieved" but ultimately just patronizing them and taking their support and votes for granted (just as the Republicans have done). Cid has been spot on.

[UNI88]

Socialism and Communism are left of liberal, IMO.

You're confusing authoritarianism with ideology. Authoritarianism can come from both sides of the spectrum.

IMO the spectrum isn't a straight line, it's a circle with left and right meeting at the bottom. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc.

[Skjellyfetti]

[UNI88]

New Trier should focus less on race, more on economic inequality. That's Problem One.

Great op-ed by Chicago pastor Corey B. Brooks in response to a seminar at New Trier High School (one of the top high schools in the country in one of the wealthiest areas of the country).

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opin ... story.html

There are those who make their living by browbeating the public with racial issues and framing the case of poverty as a government problem. I wholeheartedly disagree. Poverty, especially generational poverty, is the greatest impetus for crime, and that is tearing black communities apart. Poor people are segregated into poor neighborhoods, and some have become dependent on those pushing their grievances.
...
The fact is that the poor do not have equal opportunities in our society. Racial characteristics have nothing to do with it. Poor children, whether they are white, Hispanic, black, Native American or otherwise, do not have the opportunity to receive a quality education, to live in communities free of crime and violence, to have access to quality health and dental care, and to engage in the social, cultural and artistic experiences that are so important in the formation of the human psyche.

Discrimination is alive and well, but it is economic discrimination. It is an all too convenient excuse for those cosseted in comfortable surroundings to cry racism as the basis for the inequality in society. It is the social liberal, living a privileged life, interacting only with others who share his or her affluence, who is all too happy to ascribe the problems caused by poverty — illiteracy, recidivism, illegitimacy, substance abuse — to racism.

It is far easier to blame the racist of 200 years ago than to face in the mirror the indifferent hypocrite of today.

[GannonFan]

New Trier should focus less on race, more on economic inequality. That's Problem One.

Great op-ed by Chicago pastor Corey B. Brooks in response to a seminar at New Trier High School (one of the top high schools in the country in one of the wealthiest areas of the country).

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opin ... story.html

There are those who make their living by browbeating the public with racial issues and framing the case of poverty as a government problem. I wholeheartedly disagree. Poverty, especially generational poverty, is the greatest impetus for crime, and that is tearing black communities apart. Poor people are segregated into poor neighborhoods, and some have become dependent on those pushing their grievances.
...
The fact is that the poor do not have equal opportunities in our society. Racial characteristics have nothing to do with it. Poor children, whether they are white, Hispanic, black, Native American or otherwise, do not have the opportunity to receive a quality education, to live in communities free of crime and violence, to have access to quality health and dental care, and to engage in the social, cultural and artistic experiences that are so important in the formation of the human psyche.

Discrimination is alive and well, but it is economic discrimination. It is an all too convenient excuse for those cosseted in comfortable surroundings to cry racism as the basis for the inequality in society. It is the social liberal, living a privileged life, interacting only with others who share his or her affluence, who is all too happy to ascribe the problems caused by poverty — illiteracy, recidivism, illegitimacy, substance abuse — to racism.

It is far easier to blame the racist of 200 years ago than to face in the mirror the indifferent hypocrite of today.

Good article. Interesting quote from it:

Such racial labeling is premised upon the idea that racial characteristics — not talent, skill, dedication, character and proficiency — determine success or failure in our society.

Question that I take from that is if talent, skill, dedication, character and proficiency are the determinants of success in our society, how do we translate that into something that allows more people to be successful? Some of those things just can't be taught or given.

[CID1990]

New Trier should focus less on race, more on economic inequality. That's Problem One.

Great op-ed by Chicago pastor Corey B. Brooks in response to a seminar at New Trier High School (one of the top high schools in the country in one of the wealthiest areas of the country).

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opin ... story.html

Good article. Interesting quote from it:

Such racial labeling is premised upon the idea that racial characteristics — not talent, skill, dedication, character and proficiency — determine success or failure in our society.

Question that I take from that is if talent, skill, dedication, character and proficiency are the determinants of success in our society, how do we translate that into something that allows more people to be successful? Some of those things just can't be taught or given.

Chairman Mao took a pretty good shot at a solution back in the 60s.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[UNI88]

New Trier should focus less on race, more on economic inequality. That's Problem One.

Great op-ed by Chicago pastor Corey B. Brooks in response to a seminar at New Trier High School (one of the top high schools in the country in one of the wealthiest areas of the country).

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opin ... story.html

Good article. Interesting quote from it:

Such racial labeling is premised upon the idea that racial characteristics — not talent, skill, dedication, character and proficiency — determine success or failure in our society.

Question that I take from that is if talent, skill, dedication, character and proficiency are the determinants of success in our society, how do we translate that into something that allows more people to be successful? Some of those things just can't be taught or given.

You can develop talent, teach skills and build character but it is ultimately up to the individual to take advantage of those opportunities. Opportunity is the key. Too many poor people regardless of their race face an uphill fight due to poor schools, violence, drugs, etc. and have little to no hope that they can improve their lives. Fixing this problem isn't about racial awareness seminars or government handouts, it's about finding a way to give everyone who wants and needs them access to a quality education, safer streets, child care resources, etc.

Not everyone is going to be successful and that's ok as long as everyone has a reasonable opportunity to be successful.

[YoUDeeMan]

Good article. Interesting quote from it:



Question that I take from that is if talent, skill, dedication, character and proficiency are the determinants of success in our society, how do we translate that into something that allows more people to be successful? Some of those things just can't be taught or given.

You can develop talent, teach skills and build character but it is ultimately up to the individual to take advantage of those opportunities. Opportunity is the key. Too many poor people regardless of their race face an uphill fight due to poor schools, violence, drugs, etc. and have little to no hope that they can improve their lives. Fixing this problem isn't about racial awareness seminars or government handouts, it's about finding a way to give everyone who wants and needs them access to a quality education, safer streets, child care resources, etc.

Not everyone is going to be successful and that's ok as long as everyone has a reasonable opportunity to be successful.

What do you do with the unsuccessful people?

[kalm]

You can develop talent, teach skills and build character but it is ultimately up to the individual to take advantage of those opportunities. Opportunity is the key. Too many poor people regardless of their race face an uphill fight due to poor schools, violence, drugs, etc. and have little to no hope that they can improve their lives. Fixing this problem isn't about racial awareness seminars or government handouts, it's about finding a way to give everyone who wants and needs them access to a quality education, safer streets, child care resources, etc.

Not everyone is going to be successful and that's ok as long as everyone has a reasonable opportunity to be successful.

What do you do with the unsuccessful people?

Throw them enough crumbs to satisfy and keep the shivs holstered.

[UNI88]

You can develop talent, teach skills and build character but it is ultimately up to the individual to take advantage of those opportunities. Opportunity is the key. Too many poor people regardless of their race face an uphill fight due to poor schools, violence, drugs, etc. and have little to no hope that they can improve their lives. Fixing this problem isn't about racial awareness seminars or government handouts, it's about finding a way to give everyone who wants and needs them access to a quality education, safer streets, child care resources, etc.

Not everyone is going to be successful and that's ok as long as everyone has a reasonable opportunity to be successful.

What do you do with the unsuccessful people?

Send them to live on a kalmune in the Palouse run by Bernie and Liz Warren.

[kalm]

What do you do with the unsuccessful people?

Send them to live on a kalmune in the Palouse run by Bernie and Liz Warren.

Bernie and Liz are not allowed here. The Palouse is solidly red with a few liberal enclaves in the college towns. It's mostly comprised of farmers and small towners who echo the sentiments of your last reply to me. They liked to blame everything on Seattle liberals like Chizzy and those commie DC progressives like Obama who just won't let them fairly lead their stoic life of hard work and independence, free from government interference as they work land irrigated by the Columbia Basin Reclamation Project and ship their subsidized crops down the federally dammed and - made - navigable Snake and Columbia rivers.

[Baldy]

Send them to live on a kalmune in the Palouse run by Bernie and Liz Warren.

Bernie and Liz are not allowed here. The Palouse is solidly red with a few liberal enclaves in the college towns. It's mostly comprised of farmers and small towners who echo the sentiments of your last reply to me. They liked to blame everything on Seattle liberals like Chizzy and those commie DC progressives like Obama who just won't let them fairly lead their stoic life of hard work and independence, free from government interference as they work land irrigated by the Columbia Basin Reclamation Project and ship their subsidized crops down the federally dammed and - made - navigable Snake and Columbia rivers.

In other words, government projects that are actually in the government's scope of practice.

[JohnStOnge]

New Trier should focus less on race, more on economic inequality. That's Problem One.

Great op-ed by Chicago pastor Corey B. Brooks in response to a seminar at New Trier High School (one of the top high schools in the country in one of the wealthiest areas of the country).

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opin ... story.html

There are those who make their living by browbeating the public with racial issues and framing the case of poverty as a government problem. I wholeheartedly disagree. Poverty, especially generational poverty, is the greatest impetus for crime, and that is tearing black communities apart. Poor people are segregated into poor neighborhoods, and some have become dependent on those pushing their grievances.
...
The fact is that the poor do not have equal opportunities in our society. Racial characteristics have nothing to do with it. Poor children, whether they are white, Hispanic, black, Native American or otherwise, do not have the opportunity to receive a quality education, to live in communities free of crime and violence, to have access to quality health and dental care, and to engage in the social, cultural and artistic experiences that are so important in the formation of the human psyche.

Discrimination is alive and well, but it is economic discrimination. It is an all too convenient excuse for those cosseted in comfortable surroundings to cry racism as the basis for the inequality in society. It is the social liberal, living a privileged life, interacting only with others who share his or her affluence, who is all too happy to ascribe the problems caused by poverty — illiteracy, recidivism, illegitimacy, substance abuse — to racism.

It is far easier to blame the racist of 200 years ago than to face in the mirror the indifferent hypocrite of today.

The only problem with all of that is that if you look at it mathematically "race" cannot be "explained" away by trying to take socioeconomics into account. Depending on which "side" you're on that can mean different things. But the idea that "race" doesn't matter is just not supportable.

[YoUDeeMan]

I miss D1B...but don't let Julian know.