Concerned Catholics

[Chizzang]

Agree with chizzy that fundies can be dangerous. The idea of Prresident Pence (or Boobs) scares me. And fundies do tend to be conservative.

Absolute certainty about the next life
is incompatible with reason and logic in this life...



To proof this theory
Ask any devout Muslim

Followed by:
Pretending to know things that you do not know, is the lifeblood of organized Religion

[css75]

So are Evangelicals Christianity's kinder, gentler version of Wahhabists and their like?

One of the many problems with the extremes of either side is that they tend to see things in black & white terms - I'm right, you're wrong; I'm good, you're evil. This leaves little room for dialogue and understanding which leads to compromise and better overall solutions.


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Agree on the black and white thing but as Chizzy suggested, fundies of any stripe are dangerous. Christians happen to be 700 years ahead of muslims but wasn't a big part of that the enlightenment and resulting restrictions placed on their political influence by constitutionally created freedoms and government?

And when it comes to picking sides, I think one can also make a case for radical islam being a conservative movement, obviously socially but also from a top-down economic concept.

Martin Luther and others were leaders during the Renaissance.


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[css75]

All I said was no denomination should dominate and that people should be allowed to worship however they want as the founders intended. People are also free not to worship.


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Maybe you should comprehend what you wrote. Try again, champ.

Spoiler: show

It was never intended to separate faith from government

We specifically wanted faith separate from government. I think you're either forgetting or ignoring early colonial history.

Don’t think so, services were held at various government venues and people like Jefferson and Madison attended. Government cannot and should not impose religious regulations, but people in government can freely exercise their faith.


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[css75]

All I said was no denomination should dominate and that people should be allowed to worship however they want as the founders intended. People are also free not to worship.


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I think it was your last line about faith. Faith is a personal matter, not a government matter. Does separation hurt an individuals right to believe?

Depends, is the person allowed to freely express his faith?


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[Ibanez]

Maybe you should comprehend what you wrote. Try again, champ.

Spoiler: show

We specifically wanted faith separate from government. I think you're either forgetting or ignoring early colonial history.

Don’t think so, services were held at various government venues and people like Jefferson and Madison attended. Government cannot and should not impose religious regulations, but people in government can freely exercise their faith.


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Nope. That’s not the separation of church and state that Jefferson spoke about. Seriously- go do some reading. Maybe learn why certain colonies only allowed certain religions and suppressed those that weren’t Quaker, Baptist, Anglican, etc.....


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[Ibanez]

I think it was your last line about faith. Faith is a personal matter, not a government matter. Does separation hurt an individuals right to believe?

Depends, is the person allowed to freely express his faith?


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nope. You’re confusing the two


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[css75]

Don’t think so, services were held at various government venues and people like Jefferson and Madison attended. Government cannot and should not impose religious regulations, but people in government can freely exercise their faith.


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Nope. That’s not the separation of church and state that Jefferson spoke about. Seriously- go do some reading. Maybe learn why certain colonies only allowed certain religions and suppressed those that weren’t Quaker, Baptist, Anglican, etc.....


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I do my reading, maybe you should do yours. Yes, certain colonies were ruled by certain religions. That was no longer allowed when we became a nation. A Quaker could worship anywhere now freely, not just in Pa. Catholicism was no longer confined to,Maryland, etc.


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[Ibanez]

Nope. That’s not the separation of church and state that Jefferson spoke about. Seriously- go do some reading. Maybe learn why certain colonies only allowed certain religions and suppressed those that weren’t Quaker, Baptist, Anglican, etc.....


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I do my reading, maybe you should do yours. Yes, certain colonies were ruled by certain religions. That was no longer allowed when we became a nation. A Quaker could worship anywhere now freely, not just in Pa. Catholicism was no longer confined to,Maryland, etc.


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Think, McFly.

You aren't getting it. Religions had dictated life in so many colonies. If you weren't Anglican - you were no better than a slave. If you weren't Puritan - you couldn't own land, vote, own a business,etc... Same thing in England. The King (head of the Anglican Church) had dictated life in England - which is why so many left to pursue their own brand of faith in the colonies. You had to be Anglican or else. The founding fathers knew the problems that created. It wasn't just about making sure you can be Baptist and I, Catholic. The idea of separating Church from State was so that Catholic morals, laws, etc.. weren't imposed upon non Catholics (for example). The idea that religion is personal and not the purview of the US Gov't. It was to make our country secular. We will not have an official religion, we will not have religious laws. But you are free to believe in whatever you want. The Gov't will NOT say you can't believe in Jesus, Mohammed, Flying Spaghetti, etc...

Jefferon's "separation of church and state" is meant to explain intent of the Free Exercise Clause and Establishment Clause.

Too many people, especially arm chair historians ( and I admit that sometimes I fall into that category) read without understanding the context and the history of things like the 1st Amendment. There's a logical, historical context that led us to say we needed that freedom. Same with 2-8.

Look at each Amendment in the Bill of Rights. You can draw a line from them to grievances that we had with England. Many of the "abuses" in the Declaration of Independence are in the 10 below.

1. Freedom of Religion, Speech, and the Press
2. The Right to Bear Arms
3. The Housing of Soldiers
4. Protection from Unreasonable Searches and Seizures
5. Protection of Rights to Life, Liberty, and Property
6. Rights of Accused Persons in Criminal Case
7. Rights in Civil Cases
8. Excessive Bail, Fines, and Punishments Forbidden
9. Other Rights Kept by the People
10. Undelegated Powers Kept by the States and the People

The founding fathers were trying to avoid the style of government they had been under. They were abused and made sure that their Bill of Rights allowed all those freedoms which were suppressed from the very beginning.


Lastly, let's listen to TJ himself

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof", thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.

[kalm]

Yeah! What he said! ^^^^^^^^^^

[Chizzang]

Think, McFly.

If you think css75 is slow
Try spending an afternoon explaining this to Gil

[UNI88]

Think, McFly.

If you think css75 is slow
Try spending an afternoon explaining this to Gil

Chizzy, what is the source of ur (that's text type for u 93 ) dislike for Gil? It seems to be pretty deep but I don't quite understand it.

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[Ibanez]

If you think css75 is slow
Try spending an afternoon explaining this to Gil

Chizzy, what is the source of ur (that's text type for u 93 ) dislike for Gil? It seems to be pretty deep but I don't quite understand it.

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Scorned lover.

[CAA Flagship]

Chizzy, what is the source of ur (that's text type for u 93 ) dislike for Gil? It seems to be pretty deep but I don't quite understand it.

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Scorned lover.

[Gil Dobie]

If you think css75 is slow
Try spending an afternoon explaining this to Gil

Chizzy, what is the source of ur (that's text type for u 93 ) dislike for Gil? It seems to be pretty deep but I don't quite understand it.

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Scorned Chizzangotan

[Chizzang]

If you think css75 is slow
Try spending an afternoon explaining this to Gil

Chizzy, what is the source of ur (that's text type for u 93 ) dislike for Gil? It seems to be pretty deep but I don't quite understand it.

First let me ask you a question...
Have you legitimately debated a topic of interest with him yourself..?

[JoltinJoe]

It was to make our country secular.

I agree with everything you wrote, except this. You will strain to find a single reference from any of the founders, anywhere, saying that the United States is to be a "secular" country. Go ahead and see if you can find one.

Now, to be honest, the term "secularism" as pertains to a moral philosophy or a system of government would not even be coined until the mid-19th century -- so its absence in this sense in the writings of the founders is entirely predictable.

The question is: Did the founders intend a "secular" state as that term is used today?

Well, if you read selectively, you could string together a quote here and there to support that. Take Jefferson's reference to the "wall between Church and state." That quotation has to be measured against the historical background of the era during which Jefferson wrote, and in the greater context of his writings. We revolted against a nation whose king was also the head of its national church. Jefferson's writings teem with hostile references to the concept of the "divine right" of kings, by which kings claimed, and priests ratified, that the king ruled through a direct delegation from God. Jefferson repeatedly wrote that such an understanding by which kings claimed the right to rule, both politically and theologically, twisted and distorted not only the proper role of the sovereign, but the proper role of the priest.

But here is where the case for a "secular" Jefferson is undermined: he declared the authority of the sovereign resulted from a delegation by the "people" and only with their consent. He proclaimed a system of government founded on "natural law" by which every person "is endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights ..."

So, in Jefferson's estimation, rather than a delegation from the Creator to the king, the delegation from the Creator runs directly to each individual, which then delegates authority to the sovereign -- the sovereign being, thus, subordinate to the individual.

My point is simply this: Jefferson's reference to a Creator negates any legitimate argument that this a "secular" nation so long as our founding documents remain the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Our nation may be neutral on the matter of religion, but it is not neutral on the role of the Creator. Ultimately, this is why generic expressions of faith in God have always been allowed in the public forum: the Creator is a founding force in all our governing documents.

If you were to ask genuine secularists whether we really are "endowed by our Creator with certain unalienable rights," they would say no, and that this was just a figure of speech employed by Jefferson. But that is not correct. If you read Jefferson, you cannot avoid concluding that Jefferson believed in a real God -- although he did not adhere to any of the faith systems popular in his day.

Jefferson was a "Christian Deist" who believed in natural law. He would have rejected secularism.

[Chizzang]

Jefferson was a "Christian Deist" who believed in natural law. He would have rejected secularism.

Speaking of "rejections"
I thought Jefferson rejected Jesus as the Messiah..?
Which would make him a regular old Deist... not a Christian Deist

everything else in your post checks out

[kalm]

Jefferson was a "Christian Deist" who believed in natural law. He would have rejected secularism.

Speaking of "rejections"
I thought Jefferson rejected Jesus as the Messiah..?
Which would make him a regular old Deist... not a Christian Deist

everything else in your post checks out

Didn’t Jefferson also reference “nature’s god”?

We’re clearly not a Christian nation according to the founding documents. Personal beliefs have nothing to do with it.

If we’re not a secular nation what are we?

Serious, genuine, questions, Joe so please try and avoid smarmy answers.

[Chizzang]

Speaking of "rejections"
I thought Jefferson rejected Jesus as the Messiah..?
Which would make him a regular old Deist... not a Christian Deist

everything else in your post checks out

Didn’t Jefferson also reference “nature’s god”?

We’re clearly not a Christian nation according to the founding documents. Personal beliefs have nothing to do with it.

If we’re not a secular nation what are we?

Serious, genuine, questions, Joe so please try and avoid smarmy answers.

See above: A Nation of Christians

[css75]

Speaking of "rejections"
I thought Jefferson rejected Jesus as the Messiah..?
Which would make him a regular old Deist... not a Christian Deist

everything else in your post checks out

Didn’t Jefferson also reference “nature’s god”?

We’re clearly not a Christian nation according to the founding documents. Personal beliefs have nothing to do with it.

If we’re not a secular nation what are we?

Serious, genuine, questions, Joe so please try and avoid smarmy answers.

Agree that Jefferson was a deist, but still respected Christianity and other religions. I think the term Christian nation was conceived because during the early days of the Republic, the majority of citizens were Christian. Also, going back further, several of the colonies were founded by people seeking religious freedom, such as Pennsylvania by the Quakers, Maryland by the Catholics, Mass. by the Puritans and Pilgrims.


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[JoltinJoe]

Jefferson was a "Christian Deist" who believed in natural law. He would have rejected secularism.

Speaking of "rejections"
I thought Jefferson rejected Jesus as the Messiah..?
Which would make him a regular old Deist... not a Christian Deist

everything else in your post checks out

Jefferson is typically referred to as a "Christian Deist" because, although he did not accept Christ as divine and was thus not "Christian" or a member of any Christian church, he actively adopted Christian ethics as the foundation of societal law.

Did you know Jefferson actually "edited" the Gospels to create narratives of Jesus' life that included no references to his divinity or miracles -- distilled to include only Jesus' teachings? In a often-misquoted statement, Jefferson once wrote: ""[T]o the corruptions of Christianity, I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence, & believing he never claimed any other." (I probably don't have to point out which part of this quote is frequently taken out-of-context ).

Avery Dulles, S.J., an authority in 19th-century American religions and a theologian of world-wide notoriety, wrote: "In summary, then, Jefferson was a deist because he believed in one God, in divine providence, in the divine moral law, and in rewards and punishments after death; but did not believe in supernatural revelation. He was a Christian deist because he saw Christianity as the highest expression of natural religion and Jesus as an incomparably great moral teacher. He was not an orthodox Christian because he rejected, among other things, the doctrines that Jesus was the promised Messiah and the incarnate Son of God. Jefferson's religion is fairly typical of the American form of deism in his day."

For these reasons, Jefferson is typically identified as a "Christian Deist."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_deism

[JoltinJoe]

Incidentally, when I was in college, I took a class called "Jeffersonian Democracy and Jacksonian Democracy."

It was an examination of the foundational principles of our government (Jefferson); and how those foundational principles were understood and applied during the period of Andrew Jackson (so we did read "Democracy in America"). What we discussed in that class is pretty pertinent for what is happening today in America under this current administration. Full disclosure: Fr. Dulles was a guest lecturer for our class one day. It was supposed to be a 57-minute class; he spoke for nearly 90 minutes. Good thing I didn't have a class next session.

One of the things to keep in mind is that Jefferson's writings toward the end of his life were made during a period of rising populism culminating (at least for Jefferson's purposes, because he did not live to see the election of 1828) in Jackson securing the most popular votes and electoral votes during the election of 1824. As we know, Jackson did not win enough of the electoral votes to win the presidency in 1824.

When you read Jefferson's writings during that era with the understanding that Jackson was a "contemporary" of Jefferson the "commentator," it is a fascinating exercise and most elucidating on Jefferson's concepts of the government he helped to create.

[kalm]

Didn’t Jefferson also reference “nature’s god”?

We’re clearly not a Christian nation according to the founding documents. Personal beliefs have nothing to do with it.

If we’re not a secular nation what are we?

Serious, genuine, questions, Joe so please try and avoid smarmy answers.

See above: A Nation of Christians

I support your right to believe that, even if it isn’t true.

[kalm]

Speaking of "rejections"
I thought Jefferson rejected Jesus as the Messiah..?
Which would make him a regular old Deist... not a Christian Deist

everything else in your post checks out

Jefferson is typically referred to as a "Christian Deist" because, although he did not accept Christ as divine and was thus not "Christian" or a member of any Christian church, he actively adopted Christian ethics as the foundation of societal law.

Did you know Jefferson actually "edited" the Gospels to create narratives of Jesus' life that included no references to his divinity or miracles -- distilled to include only Jesus' teachings? In a often-misquoted statement, Jefferson once wrote: ""[T]o the corruptions of Christianity, I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence, & believing he never claimed any other." (I probably don't have to point out which part of this quote is frequently taken out-of-context ).

Avery Dulles, S.J., an authority in 19th-century American religions and a theologian of world-wide notoriety, wrote: "In summary, then, Jefferson was a deist because he believed in one God, in divine providence, in the divine moral law, and in rewards and punishments after death; but did not believe in supernatural revelation. He was a Christian deist because he saw Christianity as the highest expression of natural religion and Jesus as an incomparably great moral teacher. He was not an orthodox Christian because he rejected, among other things, the doctrines that Jesus was the promised Messiah and the incarnate Son of God. Jefferson's religion is fairly typical of the American form of deism in his day."

For these reasons, Jefferson is typically identified as a "Christian Deist."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_deism

Jefferson referring to his first attempt, the “Philosophy of Jesus of Nazareth”:

"A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

Maybe the US was founded on Jesus’s principles (among others) instead of Christian principles?

[Gil Dobie]

Hey Joe,

I think they are starting to drink from your cup.