Uvalde School Shooting

[GannonFan]

We'll have to see the details on what transpired here - apparently there was an armed guard at this school and he did engage the culprit before he entered the school. Not a lot of details yet on how the interaction with the armed guard transpired and how exactly he got into the building.

I wasn't certain about that part, some of what i've read said the shooter was already Barricaded.

Personally - if we have armed guards in school and they see a kid approaching with a gun, they should just take him out. No need to diffuse the situation with words and negotiations. That guy is looking for a fight. Just unload a magazine into the chest.

Again, we'll have to see the details. Initially, this doesn't sound like the Parkland thing where the armed guard ran away. It sounds like he exchanged gunfire with the culprit as he was trying to enter the school, but the guy got in anyway and once in got into a classroom and barricaded himself there. And how he got into the school is the other thing to hear. BDK's right that many schools have implemented single point of entry for schools (where practicable - I know many schools still use other doors, for things like recess, but then they are closed and locked and visitors go through a vestibule where you get buzzed in) - how this school was setup and how he got in is still something to hear. But the fact that they had an armed guard there who didn't run away and tried to stop the shooter and this still happened is concerning and again questions that line of defense that armed guards solve school safety issues.

[Ibanez]

I wasn't certain about that part, some of what i've read said the shooter was already Barricaded.

Personally - if we have armed guards in school and they see a kid approaching with a gun, they should just take him out. No need to diffuse the situation with words and negotiations. That guy is looking for a fight. Just unload a magazine into the chest.

Again, we'll have to see the details. Initially, this doesn't sound like the Parkland thing where the armed guard ran away. It sounds like he exchanged gunfire with the culprit as he was trying to enter the school, but the guy got in anyway and once in got into a classroom and barricaded himself there. And how he got into the school is the other thing to hear. BDK's right that many schools have implemented single point of entry for schools (where practicable - I know many schools still use other doors, for things like recess, but then they are closed and locked and visitors go through a vestibule where you get buzzed in) - how this school was setup and how he got in is still something to hear. But the fact that they had an armed guard there who didn't run away and tried to stop the shooter and this still happened is concerning and again questions that line of defense that armed guards solve school safety issues.

And that's my main point. Let's wait for the details but if the guard couldn't stop this kid from entering, then it hurts the idea that armed guards are the solution to the problem.

My daughters elementary school has an armed guard and this guy looks like he took his training months before being deployed to Vietnam. His reaction time is probably minutes and not seconds. Thankfully they keep all the doors locked but it's just glass, shoot the glass and you're in.

[HI54UNI]

Curious how entry is controlled at your local schools. Our schools have one point of entry. You go into a vestibule and have to be buzzed in from the office. Now a dedicated person could shoot out glass doors or have an insider open other doors (an alarm would sound) to gain entry but someone can't just walk in.

Edit - I see GF already mentioned this.

[GannonFan]

Curious how entry is controlled at your local schools. Our schools have one point of entry. You go into a vestibule and have to be buzzed in from the office. Now a dedicated person could shoot out glass doors or have an insider open other doors (an alarm would sound) to gain entry but someone can't just walk in.

I think most of our schools where I am are like that now. You can only get in via one door, have to be buzzed in, and there's a camera there to see who you are and a speaker system if they need to ask who you are. That's how the buildings are setup once the kids are at school and prior to them dismissing from school. When kids are coming to school in the morning or leaving in the afternoon, all the doors are used as they go to and from the buses or walking. I don't know how it works for gym time or recess - obviously they use other doors at these times. But as the other poster said, a person with a weapon could likely get in through these setups. I think some schools where we are have bulletproof glass in those vestibules, but I wouldn't say that's common everywhere.

[Ibanez]

Curious how entry is controlled at your local schools. Our schools have one point of entry. You go into a vestibule and have to be buzzed in from the office. Now a dedicated person could shoot out glass doors or have an insider open other doors (an alarm would sound) to gain entry but someone can't just walk in.

Edit - I see GF already mentioned this.

For my daughters, I push a button on a call box outside, then someone comes and opens the door by pushing a button. That'll get you into a vestibule where you have to push buttons to open the next set a doors.

[UNI88]

Da fuq So because conks don’t want to go along with gun bans/overturning 2A conks won’t do anything to safeguard the 18 kids? Conks have been calling for an armed cop or armed guards or teachers (ex military or leo) in every schools for years, if not several decades. Which works if you have 1 open point of entry. I remeber after Sandy Hook there was a big push for this, and the left has fought them tooth and nail over it.

I didn't say anything about gun bans or overturning 2A so get your panties out of a bunch. And it's true - if Republicans truly cared then they would do whatever necessary to protect vulnerable children. But they won't (and neither will the Democrats) because it would probably require some hard and unpopular decisions that'll make them lose power.

You aren't solving a problem by adding armed guards (Parkland had a guard who ran away). It could be a stop gap but there has to be more than the nothing we're doing now. The Republican solution to gun violence in schools is more guns in the school. I get the idea, it makes sense but we should be focusing on reducing the ability for people like this guy or that whack job up in NY to even acquiring a weapon. The armed guard solution doesn't solve the root cause. It's just a temporary mitigation.

If Republicans were serious about protecting children they would also be in favor of addressing mental healthcare and wouldn't be trying to undermine public education.

[Winterborn]

I didn't say anything about gun bans or overturning 2A so get your panties out of a bunch. And it's true - if Republicans truly cared then they would do whatever necessary to protect vulnerable children. But they won't (and neither will the Democrats) because it would probably require some hard and unpopular decisions that'll make them lose power.

You aren't solving a problem by adding armed guards (Parkland had a guard who ran away). It could be a stop gap but there has to be more than the nothing we're doing now. The Republican solution to gun violence in schools is more guns in the school. I get the idea, it makes sense but we should be focusing on reducing the ability for people like this guy or that whack job up in NY to even acquiring a weapon. The armed guard solution doesn't solve the root cause. It's just a temporary mitigation.

If Republicans were serious about protecting children they would also be in favor of addressing mental healthcare and wouldn't be trying to undermine public education.

I realize you are being snarky here but mental health starts long before one enters school. Parents (or lack there of) have a big role to play in this area as well. Along with who/what the kid is spending their time on. Reading 4chan is enough to make anybody want to go off the deep end.

[UNI88]

If Republicans were serious about protecting children they would also be in favor of addressing mental healthcare and wouldn't be trying to undermine public education.

I realize you are being snarky here but mental health starts long before one enters school. Parents (or lack there of) have a big role to play in this area as well. Along with who/what the kid is spending their time on. Reading 4chan is enough to make anybody want to go off the deep end.

I was being a little snarky but IMO a disdain for public education and for healthcare assistance is contrary to a pro-life position. If you're pro-life you should care about and support life from conception through death. To qualify that, I do think that someone like 89 is extremely pro-life, doesn't believe in big government but would guess that he gives generously to his church and to charities.

Defunding public education is as stupid as defunding the police.

[Col Hogan]

I realize you are being snarky here but mental health starts long before one enters school. Parents (or lack there of) have a big role to play in this area as well. Along with who/what the kid is spending their time on. Reading 4chan is enough to make anybody want to go off the deep end.

I was being a little snarky but IMO a disdain for public education and for healthcare assistance is contrary to a pro-life position. If you're pro-life you should care about and support life from conception through death. To qualify that, I do think that someone like 89 is extremely pro-life, doesn't believe in big government but would guess that he gives generously to his church and to charities.

Defunding public education is as stupid as defunding the police.

So, you equate school vouchers to defunding the police???

[Winterborn]

I realize you are being snarky here but mental health starts long before one enters school. Parents (or lack there of) have a big role to play in this area as well. Along with who/what the kid is spending their time on. Reading 4chan is enough to make anybody want to go off the deep end.

I was being a little snarky but IMO a disdain for public education and for healthcare assistance is contrary to a pro-life position. If you're pro-life you should care about and support life from conception through death. To qualify that, I do think that someone like 89 is extremely pro-life, doesn't believe in big government but would guess that he gives generously to his church and to charities.

Defunding public education is as stupid as defunding the police.

For me I differentiate between education (of which I am a huge supporter of) and Public education (of which I have large questions over). I have zero issue with public education if it is used correctly and not as church for teachers to push their pet philosophies onto kids. Yet many teachers and school districts, but certainly not all, are not following the above. That I have issue with and fully support yanking the funding carte blanch most school districts operate with. My tax dollars should not be an automatic given to a particular school. But should follow my (theoretical at this point) kid to whatever school I send them to (private, public, or home schooled).

I am all for vouchers and parental involvement, so both teachers and parents understand the expectations of the other side and a consensus can be reached. Kids should be in school to learn the necessary skills to further their path into adulthood.

[Ibanez]

If Republicans were serious about protecting children they would also be in favor of addressing mental healthcare and wouldn't be trying to undermine public education.

I realize you are being snarky here but mental health starts long before one enters school. Parents (or lack there of) have a big role to play in this area as well. Along with who/what the kid is spending their time on. Reading 4chan is enough to make anybody want to go off the deep end.

Mental health begins at home and in the schools where kids spend 90% of their lives.

[HI54UNI]

Is the pro-life thing the talking point of the day? I'm seeing a lot of that, particularly from some politicians.

[HI54UNI]

Is this part of the problem?

[UNI88]

I was being a little snarky but IMO a disdain for public education and for healthcare assistance is contrary to a pro-life position. If you're pro-life you should care about and support life from conception through death. To qualify that, I do think that someone like 89 is extremely pro-life, doesn't believe in big government but would guess that he gives generously to his church and to charities.

Defunding public education is as stupid as defunding the police.

So, you equate school vouchers to defunding the police???

I think that:

• A smart and well-run school voucher approach is a good thing.
• Public education isn't perfect, it needs to be reformed.
• Public education should be handled by the states.
• Public education is a critical element to America being the land of opportunity and our long-term future global competitiveness depends on sound public education. As such, public education should be considered necessary infrastructure.
• Many Republicans seem to want to gradually tear away at public education. Why? I don't know but it's as stupid as defunding the police.

[Col Hogan]

So, you equate school vouchers to defunding the police???

I think that:

• A smart and well-run school voucher approach is a good thing.
• Public education isn't perfect, it needs to be reformed.
• Public education should be handled by the states.
• Public education is a critical element to America being the land of opportunity and our long-term future global competitiveness depends on sound public education. As such, public education should be considered necessary infrastructure.
• Many Republicans seem to want to gradually tear away at public education. Why? I don't know but it's as stupid as defunding the police.

I agree that education should be handled by the states. This is why I feel the Federal Education Department should be eliminated and all that money returned to the states.

I am a conservative independent and not a Republican, and I feel that public schools are increasingly being used to indoctrinate students by both the left (majority) and right instead of preparing them for future challenges. Therefore I am a strong supporter of vouchers so parents can make the choice on what their children are being taught.

[Ibanez]

I think that:

• A smart and well-run school voucher approach is a good thing.
• Public education isn't perfect, it needs to be reformed.
• Public education should be handled by the states.
• Public education is a critical element to America being the land of opportunity and our long-term future global competitiveness depends on sound public education. As such, public education should be considered necessary infrastructure.
• Many Republicans seem to want to gradually tear away at public education. Why? I don't know but it's as stupid as defunding the police.

I agree that education should be handled by the states. This is why I feel the Federal Education Department should be eliminated and all that money returned to the states.

I am a conservative independent and not a Republican, and I feel that public schools are increasingly being used to indoctrinate students by both the left (majority) and right instead of preparing them for future challenges. Therefore I am a strong supporter of vouchers so parents can make the choice on what their children are being taught.

Just a comment and i'm not saying this is my belief as I really don't have an opinion on school vouchers (I need to learn more about them besides the basics) but why should my neighbors pay for someone to attend private school? It's not as if you can earmark the tax money you pay to be returned to you.

[GannonFan]

Is this part of the problem?

Of course it is. You see the impact of not having two parents pop up in lots of things. It's actually the leading indicator of a person being able to graduate from college (i.e. students from households with two parents are more likely than anyone else to attend and graduate from college). But we, as a society, don't want to fault or shame people (well, in this case at least, we have a long list of things we do like to fault and shame people about) so instead we trumpet single parent households even though we know it's not a great idea and should be avoided if possible. Problem is we don't want to force people to live in relationships that they should get out of as well so it's a necessary unfortunate reality.

[AZGrizFan]

Again, we'll have to see the details. Initially, this doesn't sound like the Parkland thing where the armed guard ran away. It sounds like he exchanged gunfire with the culprit as he was trying to enter the school, but the guy got in anyway and once in got into a classroom and barricaded himself there. And how he got into the school is the other thing to hear. BDK's right that many schools have implemented single point of entry for schools (where practicable - I know many schools still use other doors, for things like recess, but then they are closed and locked and visitors go through a vestibule where you get buzzed in) - how this school was setup and how he got in is still something to hear. But the fact that they had an armed guard there who didn't run away and tried to stop the shooter and this still happened is concerning and again questions that line of defense that armed guards solve school safety issues.

And that's my main point. Let's wait for the details but if the guard couldn't stop this kid from entering, then it hurts the idea that armed guards are the solution to the problem.

My daughters elementary school has an armed guard and this guy looks like he took his training months before being deployed to Vietnam. His reaction time is probably minutes and not seconds. Thankfully they keep all the doors locked but it's just glass, shoot the glass and you're in.

Seriously? So ONE armed guard fails and the whole idea is just thrown out in your mind?

[AZGrizFan]

Is the pro-life thing the talking point of the day? I'm seeing a lot of that, particularly from some politicians.

Yes. They're concerned about the 18 kids who lost their lives yesterday.

They are NOT, however, concerned about the 600,000 that lost their lives last year because they were aborted. That's all about choice.

[Ibanez]

And that's my main point. Let's wait for the details but if the guard couldn't stop this kid from entering, then it hurts the idea that armed guards are the solution to the problem.

My daughters elementary school has an armed guard and this guy looks like he took his training months before being deployed to Vietnam. His reaction time is probably minutes and not seconds. Thankfully they keep all the doors locked but it's just glass, shoot the glass and you're in.

Seriously? So ONE armed guard fails and the whole idea is just thrown out in your mind?

No but it's just another wrinkle in the argument. Apparently this nut job was confronted by police who failed to neutralize the threat. The point being - armed security isn't the the end all / be all solution. It requires more than just 1 approach.

[Ibanez]

Is the pro-life thing the talking point of the day? I'm seeing a lot of that, particularly from some politicians.

Yes. They're concerned about the 18 kids who lost their lives yesterday.

They are NOT, however, concerned about the 600,000 that lost their lives last year because they were aborted. That's all about choice.

So what's the conservatives solution aside from putting Barney Fife in the school and hope he's responsive enough and a good enough shot?

Way too many children are going to school and not coming home. Way too many kids are going to school and have to practice active shooter drills when they shouldn't have to have that concern at all.

[AZGrizFan]

Seriously? So ONE armed guard fails and the whole idea is just thrown out in your mind?

No but it's just another wrinkle in the argument. Apparently this nut job was confronted by police who failed to neutralize the threat. The point being - armed security isn't the the end all / be all solution. It requires more than just 1 approach.

Nobody has ever said it's the end all/be all. But if (and it's a huge if, depending on the facts as they come out) that security guard happened to hit him and wound him, forcing him to barricade himself in a single room, it may have saved countless OTHER lives and prevented him from roving the halls firing indiscriminately for an extended period of time.

And regarding your kids' school, if they're going to hire a useless turd to act as "guard", then they'll get exactly what they paid for if that time ever comes....but don't blame it on the CONCEPT, it's the execution of that concept that's key.

[AZGrizFan]

Yes. They're concerned about the 18 kids who lost their lives yesterday.

They are NOT, however, concerned about the 600,000 that lost their lives last year because they were aborted. That's all about choice.

So what's the conservatives solution aside from putting Barney Fife in the school and hope he's responsive enough and a good enough shot?

Way too many children are going to school and not coming home. Way too many kids are going to school and have to practice active shooter drills when they shouldn't have to have that concern at all.

600,000 a year never make it to a home at all. What's the liberals' solution to that? (Rhetorical question, but it points out the hypocrisy of the left).

Here's a little newsflash: not all school resource officers are "Barney Fife". A significant number are active duty police officers assigned to the schools. Your continued insistence and dependence on that little anecdotal tidbit is beneath you, Mark.

[Ibanez]

No but it's just another wrinkle in the argument. Apparently this nut job was confronted by police who failed to neutralize the threat. The point being - armed security isn't the the end all / be all solution. It requires more than just 1 approach.

Nobody has ever said it's the end all/be all. But if (and it's a huge if, depending on the facts as they come out) that security guard happened to hit him and wound him, forcing him to barricade himself in a single room, it may have saved countless OTHER lives and prevented him from roving the halls firing indiscriminately for an extended period of time.

And regarding your kids' school, if they're going to hire a useless turd to act as "guard", then they'll get exactly what they paid for if that time ever comes....but don't blame it on the CONCEPT, it's the execution of that concept that's key.

No however that's the only option we hear from the Right when this happens. Put more people in the school with guns.

At my kids school, it's odd, they used to have a town cop out front. Former Army Ranger and i'm pretty sure that guy would shoot first and ask questions later. Now they've got Gomer Pyle with asthma and gout out there from some private company. It's pathetic.

[Ibanez]

So what's the conservatives solution aside from putting Barney Fife in the school and hope he's responsive enough and a good enough shot?

Way too many children are going to school and not coming home. Way too many kids are going to school and have to practice active shooter drills when they shouldn't have to have that concern at all.

600,000 a year never make it to a home at all. What's the liberals' solution to that? (Rhetorical question, but it points out the hypocrisy of the left).

Here's a little newsflash: not all school resource officers are "Barney Fife". A significant number are active duty police officers assigned to the schools. Your continued insistence and dependence on that little anecdotal tidbit is beneath you, Mark.

It's hyperbolic to make a point, Tom. One would figure for having known me for nearly 20+ years, you would've learned my arguing/debating style. If Trump can be hyperbolic, why can't I?

No shit they all aren't Barney Fife's, but that isn't the point. Putting cops, guards in the school does NOTHING to combat the issue as to why these kids feel the need to go shoot up a school, supermarket, movie theater, etc... Let's spend billions on mental health, better counselors in the schools to help those children before they go and ruin their lives among dozens others.

The hypocrisy is on both sides b/c neither side wants to take an objective look at the issue and propose a solution that might not be the politically-safe solution but is the best solution - and that goes for any topic whether it's school shootings or not.