Right wing Radio host waterboarded, admits it's torture

[dbackjon]

Yet the man responsible for 9/11 has never been captured...

True statement...

And it is relevant to this discussion how?????

If the horrors of 9/11 are a valid reason for torture, then the failure of this torture to capture the person responsible for 9/11 should be fair game as well.

[JoltinJoe]

True statement...

And it is relevant to this discussion how?????

If the horrors of 9/11 are a valid reason for torture, then the failure of this torture to capture the person responsible for 9/11 should be fair game as well.

So you think we needed to torture them some more?

[Col Hogan]

True statement...

And it is relevant to this discussion how?????

If the horrors of 9/11 are a valid reason for torture, then the failure of this torture to capture the person responsible for 9/11 should be fair game as well.

So, if x does not work each and every time...to total success...then let's question why it is used at all...

Is that your position???

[houndawg]

True statement...

And it is relevant to this discussion how?????

If the horrors of 9/11 are a valid reason for torture, then the failure of this torture to capture the person responsible for 9/11 should be fair game as well.

truthiness point. Mancow lasted six seconds, and some of the detainees have been wb'd 180 times. If it is torture, it doesn't seem to be productive or timely.

[JoltinJoe]

If the horrors of 9/11 are a valid reason for torture, then the failure of this torture to capture the person responsible for 9/11 should be fair game as well.

truthiness point. Mancow lasted six seconds, and some of the detainees have been wb'd 180 times. If it is torture, it doesn't seem to be productive or timely.

The information about Sheikh Mohammed's whereabouts was gained from Abu Zubaydah, and Sheikh Mohammed offered up details about numerous existing Al Qaida plots, according to ABC news reports.

Exclusive: Only Three Have Been Waterboarded by CIA

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

Good post Cleets and I'm glad to see the activity out of Joltin' Joe as well. Good stuff on both sides of this argument to ponder. My true feeling about this is that if this shit is gonna be done it should be done in secrecy so that if it is effective in some way we get the benefits while being able to think that we are this bastion of morality.

It seems to me that we lost the "eye of the tiger" long ago as a people and we are now just fat, lazy, fucks talking about what me deem moral. We have enemies that use this weakness against us and the truth of the matter is that I don't think we have the stomach to defeat an amoral enemy. I can't make a decision as to what I think about it so I'm worse off than most. One thing I do know is that pound for pound we couldn't stand up to the enemy we face if they had our technology and resources we would have been wiped out years ago.

[BlueHen86]

Lot of good posts on this subject. I've always been against torture, but JoltinJoe has converted me.
After reading Joe's posts I would be willing to agree to certain types of torture under certain circumstances.

I also agree with Cleets regarding Cheney - he's a scumbag. I have no respect for him.

[Cleets Part 2]

Good post Cleets and I'm glad to see the activity out of Joltin' Joe as well. Good stuff on both sides of this argument to ponder. My true feeling about this is that if this **** is gonna be done it should be done in secrecy so that if it is effective in some way we get the benefits while being able to think that we are this bastion of morality.

It seems to me that we lost the "eye of the tiger" long ago as a people and we are now just fat, lazy, **** talking about what me deem moral. We have enemies that use this weakness against us and the truth of the matter is that I don't think we have the stomach to defeat an amoral enemy. I can't make a decision as to what I think about it so I'm worse off than most. One thing I do know is that pound for pound we couldn't stand up to the enemy we face if they had our technology and resources we would have been wiped out years ago.

Apparently this is a tricky one..
however it's against my personal policy for me to have an opinion on this

I am the son of a military man but I am no soldier - and I will not meddle in the affairs of these men of action. I believe the U.S. Military should be allowed to decide (essentially) on their own - what conduct is appropriate and or necessary

No one knows the consequences of their behavior more than a soldier - who pays with his own life

I talk... I get paid to talk
I am not a man of action and the consequences of my behavior are nil - I suffer no great danger - I sacrifice nothing for my coffee and muffin in the morning

For the above reasons - 5 time military draft dodger Cheney is the last human being on earth who should be lecturing anybody about "the military" and it's actions - he is a disgrace to this country and a sham of a human with no honor and no personal dignity...

beyond that - I will let the men who suffer the consequences of their actions make those decisions and trust all to them in that regard

it's how I feel...
I appreciate you acknowledgment brother

[houndawg]

Lot of good posts on this subject. I've always been against torture, but JoltinJoe has converted me.
After reading Joe's posts I would be willing to agree to certain types of torture under certain circumstances.

I also agree with Cleets regarding Cheney - he's a scumbag. I have no respect for him.

No objection to our guys being tortured if caught, then? You'd understand how it is, right?

[JoltinJoe]

Lot of good posts on this subject. I've always been against torture, but JoltinJoe has converted me.
After reading Joe's posts I would be willing to agree to certain types of torture under certain circumstances.

I also agree with Cleets regarding Cheney - he's a scumbag. I have no respect for him.

No objection to our guys being tortured if caught, then? You'd understand how it is, right?

Yes, I object, because our guys don't plan attacks intended to target civilians thousands at a time.

As FargoBison observed earlier, if you find Americans with resumes like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Abu Zubaydah, or Rahim Al-Nashiri, I have no objection.

Why don't you grasp that there is zero moral equivalence between what "our guys" do and what Al Qaida masterminds do?

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

Lot of good posts on this subject. I've always been against torture, but JoltinJoe has converted me.
After reading Joe's posts I would be willing to agree to certain types of torture under certain circumstances.

I also agree with Cleets regarding Cheney - he's a scumbag. I have no respect for him.

No objection to our guys being tortured if caught, then? You'd understand how it is, right?

Of course there's an objection to our boys being tortured if caught. I think your missing the thinking on some ot the posts here that this enemy isn't gonna play by the rules no matter what. I don't care if people want to paint this as a black & white issue or not, there is grey area that some of us are pondering. I for instance am looking at it like this...If you normally have a code of honor that you and others recognize as the way to fight it out but then come across a combatant that follows his own less honorable rules should you stick to your code or play by their code? If playing by their code give you a higher chance of winning in the end then you may want to do that. You will have to live with the fact that you lowered your standards and played by their rules but which is worse? Some things I'm pretty sure what is right and wrong but this one gives me pause.

[FargoBison]

Did he say that? We are talking about terrorists here, not soldiers, huge difference. If any American has resumes like these a foreign nation can waterboard them a million times for all I care.

-Khalid Sheikh Mohammed helped finance 93' WTC attacks, co-conspirator on Operation Bojinka, according to the 9/11 Commission Report he was "the principal architect of the 9/11 attacks."
-Abu Zubaydah, Al Qaeda Operations Chief, involved in East Africa US Embassy bombings that killed 223, including a dozen Americans.
-Rahim Al-nashiri, mastermind of the USS Cole bombing, which killed 17 US sailors.

The problem is that information obtained from torture has been found to be just as inaccurate as it is accurate, and we did not just waterboard those three mentioned - many others as well.

Either torture is wrong, and as Americans we do not torture, or any form of torture is acceptable.

No in betweens on this.

It took a while to find a credible source but....

WASHINGTON, Feb 5 (Reuters) - The CIA used a widely condemned interrogation technique known as waterboarding on three suspects captured after the Sept. 11 attacks, CIA Director Michael Hayden told Congress on Tuesday.

"Waterboarding has been used on only three detainees," Hayden told the Senate Intelligence Committee. It was the first time a U.S. official publicly specified the number of people subjected to waterboarding and named them.

Congress is considering banning the simulated drowning technique. A Democratic senator and a human rights advocacy group urged a criminal investigation after Hayden made his remarks.

"Waterboarding is torture, and torture is a crime," Human Rights Watch said in a statement.

Those subjected to waterboarding were suspected Sept. 11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and senior al Qaeda leaders Abu Zubaydah and Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, Hayden said at the Senate hearing on threats to the United States.

He said waterboarding has not been used in five years.

http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCr ... SN05191813

As for it not being useful(from the same article)....

"The circumstances under which we are operating ... are frankly, different than they were in late 2001 and early 2002," Hayden said. "Very critical to those circumstances was the belief that additional catastrophic attacks against the homeland were imminent. In addition to that, my agency ... had limited knowledge about al Qaeda and its workings. Those two realities have changed."

Hayden told reporters later that the interrogations of Mohammed and Zubaydah were particularly fruitful.
From the time of their capture in 2002 and 2003 until they were delivered to Guantanamo Bay prison in 2006, the two suspects accounted for one-fourth of the human intelligence reports on al Qaeda, Hayden said.

Some analysts have questioned Mohammed's credibility under interrogation. But Hayden said most of the information was reliable and helped lead to other al Qaeda suspects.

[houndawg]

No objection to our guys being tortured if caught, then? You'd understand how it is, right?

Yes, I object, because our guys don't plan attacks intended to target civilians thousands at a time.

As FargoBison observed earlier, if you find Americans with resumes like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Abu Zubaydah, or Rahim Al-Nashiri, I have no objection.

Why don't you grasp that there is zero moral equivalence between what "our guys" do and what Al Qaida masterminds do?

No, you're missing the point; then we're letting them make the rules.

I'm not saying that we don't try to minimize civilian casualties, but I can see where the locals wouldn't think we try to do so. We kept some of Saddam's torture facilities up and running didn't we? Guantanamo? Hell, we're just a secret police state that hasn't turned on it's own, yet. And if you don't get how important public opinion is where we're fighting and get that there are other battles being fought than just the tactical military ones, then we're tuned to different channels.

[BlueHen86]

Lot of good posts on this subject. I've always been against torture, but JoltinJoe has converted me.
After reading Joe's posts I would be willing to agree to certain types of torture under certain circumstances.

I also agree with Cleets regarding Cheney - he's a scumbag. I have no respect for him.

No objection to our guys being tortured if caught, then? You'd understand how it is, right?

We are talking about terrorists here, not soldiers. The assholes flew civilian airplanes into buildings filled with other civilians, they aren't playing by any rules. I'm pretty sure our decision to torture or not to torture won't affect their actions in anyway.

Also, if an American citizen engages in terrorist activities I'm okay with them being tortured if it might stop other future terrorist acts.

[houndawg]

No objection to our guys being tortured if caught, then? You'd understand how it is, right?

We are talking about terrorists here, not soldiers. The ******* flew civilian airplanes into buildings filled with other civilians, they aren't playing by any rules. I'm pretty sure our decision to torture or not to torture won't affect their actions in anyway.

Also, if an American citizen engages in terrorist activities I'm okay with them being tortured if it might stop other future terrorist acts.

Ah, yes, the old "mushroom cloud" theory. Works every time.

We've killed thirty times as many civilians as they have during the past six years.

[FargoBison]

We are talking about terrorists here, not soldiers. The ******* flew civilian airplanes into buildings filled with other civilians, they aren't playing by any rules. I'm pretty sure our decision to torture or not to torture won't affect their actions in anyway.

Also, if an American citizen engages in terrorist activities I'm okay with them being tortured if it might stop other future terrorist acts.

Ah, yes, the old "mushroom cloud" theory. Works every time.

We've killed thirty times as many civilians as they have during the past six years.

I wonder how many civilians have died due to the car bombs and other explosive devices that these idiots have strapped to themselves over the past six years.

[native]

THOUSANDS have been through it as part of training, TC. They are not all lining up to complain about it.

What do they call it in training?

"Men, this is a form of enhanced interrogation you may receive if captured. It is not torture and is perfectly legit under the Geneva Convention, hell some of them rag-heads been 'boarded a couple hundred times, but we thought you should be aware of it so you won't be surprised if you get captured."

In my day, nobody told you told you sh!t. After the fact we called it waterboarding.

They probably do a better job of pre-event safety briefings these days.

Ask yourself why we started doing this in training. We are not the ones who made it up. The answers are available on the net.

[native]

...We've killed thirty times as many civilians as they have during the past six years.

Where? Haditha? That turns out to have been a lie.

What other lies are you willing to re-peddle?

[native]

[No, you're missing the point; then we're letting them make the rules.

...And if you don't get how important public opinion is where we're fighting and get that there are other battles being fought than just the tactical military ones, then we're tuned to different channels.

You and your ilk are the ones missing the point, Dawg. The bad guys already made up the rules. We merely responded to an incomprehensibly dangerous and chaotic world in a limited and measured way.

Yes, public opinion is imporatnt, but how do you propose to win hearts and minds when the Arab street believes what they hear on Al-Jazeera? Your self-measured grasp of foreign public opinion is even more absurd than the naive nation-building aspirations of the neocons you disparage.

[houndawg]

...We've killed thirty times as many civilians as they have during the past six years.

Where? Haditha? That turns out to have been a lie.

What other lies are you willing to re-peddle?

I'm talking about the "collateral damage" from "surgical strikes".

[JoltinJoe]

The shame of this argument is the fact that Dick Cheney is the only public official with the balls to speak out on the subject...I wish there was a different spokesman than that dirt bag, because on this he's correct...

Dawg, you take the easy way out attacking the messenger...it's just too easy...but joe is 100% correct on this one...

European "intellectual elites" and political leaders have created a culture of moral facism over the question of torture. The problem isn't that international law criminalizes torture. Of course it should. The problem is that international law declines to recognize any defense to torture, such as necessity or justification, even though the existence of these defenses are well established and completely accepted in moral philosophy. And if any person were to stand up and question this absolute prohibition, without limited exception of necessity or justification to stop an imminent terrorist attack, they would be pilloried as a "war criminal" or an aider and abetter of "war crimes."

To me, there is something fundamentally demented about the socially liberal European outlook on things. The Europeans have the temerity to lecture us on the death penalty and torture, but they will let a genocide right in their midst go unabated at least until they are coerced by the US-led NATO, and admonished by the Pope.

[houndawg]

[No, you're missing the point; then we're letting them make the rules.

...And if you don't get how important public opinion is where we're fighting and get that there are other battles being fought than just the tactical military ones, then we're tuned to different channels.

You and your ilk are the ones missing the point, Dawg. The bad guys already made up the rules. We merely responded to an incomprehensibly dangerous and chaotic world in a limited and measured way.

Yes, public opinion is imporatnt, but how do you propose to win hearts and minds when the Arab street believes what they hear on Al-Jazeera? Your self-measured grasp of foreign public opinion is even more absurd than the naive nation-building aspirations of the neocons you disparage.

The bad guys made up their rules, native, your ilk just isn't bright enough to see how it hurts the US to play by their rules. The Arab street, like the rest of the planet, doesn't get their news only from local government sources anymore, you see there is this thing called the internet...... smfh

Your self-measured grasp of modern communications is even more limited than the half-witted neocon assumption that this battle can be won militarily.

[BlueHen86]

Where? Haditha? That turns out to have been a lie.

What other lies are you willing to re-peddle?

I'm talking about the "collateral damage" from "surgical strikes".

Which have nothing to do with a discussion of waterboarding and torture.

[Cleets Part 2]

...We've killed thirty times as many civilians as they have during the past six years.

Where? Haditha? That turns out to have been a lie.

What other lies are you willing to re-peddle?

How do you not know this..?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3672298.stm

[houndawg]

I'm talking about the "collateral damage" from "surgical strikes".

Which have nothing to do with a discussion of waterboarding and torture.

And everything to do with killing civilians, which is the excuse being offered here to legitimize torture.