Bin Laden Dead

[ASUMountaineer]

Damn. Last week it seemed like everyone wanted out of Afghanistan and were blaming Obama for the fact that we were still there.

Now it seems like everyone thinks we need to be there past 2014?

Not everyone, I say get out ASAP!

[AZGrizFan]

Damn. Last week it seemed like everyone wanted out of Afghanistan and were blaming Obama for the fact that we were still there.

Now it seems like everyone thinks we need to be there past 2014?

Are you really that dense?

I mean, you're just fuckin' with us on this, right?

[GannonFan]

Damn. Last week it seemed like everyone wanted out of Afghanistan and were blaming Obama for the fact that we were still there.

Now it seems like everyone thinks we need to be there past 2014?

Who's saying we "need" to be there past 2014? I just read the last page and there were countless people, from both sides of the political spectrum, saying we should be out of there. Being on the fence politically speaking, I've always been a fan of leaving Afghanistan. It's never going to turn into a Shangri-La and we'll need to be back there in some form in another 10 years or so to clear out the rabble like the Taliban who will set up shop there in the intervening years. Afghanistan is always going to be a mess - doesn't matter if we leave now or stay there for 3-4 more years. So I say get out now and not lose any more people than we have to. We can leave signs saying we'll be back in 2020 or just keep flying drones over the place in the meantime. That should keep people wary.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

Leave Afghanistan? maybe.
negotiate with the Taliban? fuck you.

Karzai, the "president" of Kabul... and little else... wouldn't survive a month without us.

I'm all for withdrawing to Bagram and saying to the Afghan's "it's your country, but since you've proven you can't keep terrorists out... we're staying here - and whenever we find terrorists... we're bombing the fuck out of them"

and then do exactly that. we can't just leave the country completely... as it would devolve in to a terrorist haven all over again....

(this idea is half formed, and i reserve the right to amend, append, or abandon it completely based upon further evidence - this is just off the top of my head)

[Skjellyfetti]

What exactly is wrong negotiating with the Taliban and bringing them into the political process? Seems like the best way to end this war... and we have our best chance of doing so now.

Remember this guy? That strategy was fairly effective in dealing with him in Iraq.

[AZGrizFan]

Leave Afghanistan? maybe.
negotiate with the Taliban? fuck you.

Karzai, the "president" of Kabul... and little else... wouldn't survive a month without us.

I'm all for withdrawing to Bagram and saying to the Afghan's "it's your country, but since you've proven you can't keep terrorists out... we're staying here - and whenever we find terrorists... we're bombing the fuck out of them"

and then do exactly that. we can't just leave the country completely... as it would devolve in to a terrorist haven all over again....(this idea is half formed, and i reserve the right to amend, append, or abandon it completely based upon further evidence - this is just off the top of my head)

a) I used to think this way as well, but when the president of the country (no matter his political strength or standing) is telling us to get out...I say it's time to pack up and GTFO.
b) Love the disclaimer.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

What exactly is wrong negotiating with the Taliban and bringing them into the political process? Seems like the best way to end this war... and we have our best chance of doing so now.

Remember this guy? That strategy was fairly effective in dealing with him in Iraq.

are you fucking kidding?

The Taliban - led by Mullah Mohammed Omar... INVITED BIN LADEN TO AFGHANISTAN. Fuckers provided the support infrastructure for the 9-11 plotters... the blood of 3,000 Americans is on their hands, every bit as much as it is on the hands of Kahlid Sheikh Mohammed, Osama Bin Laden and Al Zwahiri...

fuck them in the ass with a very large lead pipe.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

Leave Afghanistan? maybe.
negotiate with the Taliban? fuck you.

Karzai, the "president" of Kabul... and little else... wouldn't survive a month without us.

I'm all for withdrawing to Bagram and saying to the Afghan's "it's your country, but since you've proven you can't keep terrorists out... we're staying here - and whenever we find terrorists... we're bombing the fuck out of them"

and then do exactly that. we can't just leave the country completely... as it would devolve in to a terrorist haven all over again....(this idea is half formed, and i reserve the right to amend, append, or abandon it completely based upon further evidence - this is just off the top of my head)

a) I used to think this way as well, but when the president of the country (no matter his political strength or standing) is telling us to get out...I say it's time to pack up and GTFO.
b) Love the disclaimer.

thing is, without a strong government... or no government... or after the Taliban take the country back, with the support of the government... it WILL become a haven for terrorists again...

[GannonFan]

What exactly is wrong negotiating with the Taliban and bringing them into the political process? Seems like the best way to end this war... and we have our best chance of doing so now.

Remember this guy? That strategy was fairly effective in dealing with him in Iraq.

Iraq and Afghanistan have always been two vastly different scenarios. Iraq had much of the infrastructure of a society for quite some time (roads, cities, Universities, the arts, etc). Sure Sadaam was a brutal dictator who deserved his fate, but Iraq actually had a modern culture and the things that went along with it before and during his reign. Afghanistan has always been a desolate backwater devoid of most of the trappings of normal civilization. What we've been able to achieve in Iraq we'll probably never be able to do in Afghanistan, and certainly not in the next 3-4 years. Rebuilding a society from rubble (Iraq) is very different than one that aspires to even have rubble (Afghanistan). Take the troops out now, and use drones and special forces in the future to sweep the area occassionally of the miscreants who might seek haven there.

[AZGrizFan]

a) I used to think this way as well, but when the president of the country (no matter his political strength or standing) is telling us to get out...I say it's time to pack up and GTFO.
b) Love the disclaimer.

thing is, without a strong government... or no government... or after the Taliban take the country back, with the support of the government... it WILL become a haven for terrorists again...

Then we do this:

[GannonFan]

a) I used to think this way as well, but when the president of the country (no matter his political strength or standing) is telling us to get out...I say it's time to pack up and GTFO.
b) Love the disclaimer.

thing is, without a strong government... or no government... or after the Taliban take the country back, with the support of the government... it WILL become a haven for terrorists again...

It's inevitable - pretty much impossible to create or foster a strong government there, and even if we could, it would take many more years than we're willing to stay. We can't be there for decades. Pull em out, I say.

[AZGrizFan]

Rebuilding a society from rubble (Iraq) is very different than one that aspires to even have rubble (Afghanistan)..

CLASSIC GF....Classic....

[Wedgebuster]

a) I used to think this way as well, but when the president of the country (no matter his political strength or standing) is telling us to get out...I say it's time to pack up and GTFO.
b) Love the disclaimer.

thing is, without a strong government... or no government... or after the Taliban take the country back, with the support of the government... it WILL become a haven for terrorists again...

Indeed it will. But what is this country's great redeeming value? Like Pakistan, I see none.

Seems we have spent a lot of capital in the past building such things as boomer boats and ICBMs, I say we get the hell out of that hell hole, and the next time somebody from over there orders up some shit on us, let's start up our unilateral reduction in long range missiles one at a time.

Can't for the life of me see what harm a few nukes would do to that particular part of the planet.

edit, I am with Z on this one, didn't see the nice picture he posted.

[Skjellyfetti]

thing is, without a strong government... or no government... or after the Taliban take the country back, with the support of the government... it WILL become a haven for terrorists again...

It's inevitable - pretty much impossible to create or foster a strong government there, and even if we could, it would take many more years than we're willing to stay. We can't be there for decades. Pull em out, I say.

So, you're against even considering negotiating with the Taliban. But, you're in favor of leaving Afghanistan... and leaving it open for them to assume full and total control?

[citdog]

assrapejelly

[citdog]

[AZGrizFan]

It's inevitable - pretty much impossible to create or foster a strong government there, and even if we could, it would take many more years than we're willing to stay. We can't be there for decades. Pull em out, I say.

So, you're against even considering negotiating with the Taliban. But, you're in favor of leaving Afghanistan... and leaving it open for them to assume full and total control?

Negotiate. But with these:

[TwinTownBisonFan]

It's inevitable - pretty much impossible to create or foster a strong government there, and even if we could, it would take many more years than we're willing to stay. We can't be there for decades. Pull em out, I say.

So, you're against even considering negotiating with the Taliban. But, you're in favor of leaving Afghanistan... and leaving it open for them to assume full and total control?

do you really think it's possible to negotiate in good faith with these assholes? really? more than that is the principle of the thing... we didn't negotiate with the japanese, and rightly so.

what i'm saying is, you can't engage in "nation building" in a place that isn't a nation... you can only stand back and keep it in check... it's the same way i truly believe terrorism cannot ever be defeated, you just have to remain vigilant and fight it at the roots as much as at the tops...

[kalm]

Leave Afghanistan? maybe.
negotiate with the Taliban? fuck you.

Karzai, the "president" of Kabul... and little else... wouldn't survive a month without us.

I'm all for withdrawing to Bagram and saying to the Afghan's "it's your country, but since you've proven you can't keep terrorists out... we're staying here - and whenever we find terrorists... we're bombing the fuck out of them"

and then do exactly that. we can't just leave the country completely... as it would devolve in to a terrorist haven all over again....

(this idea is half formed, and i reserve the right to amend, append, or abandon it completely based upon further evidence - this is just off the top of my head)

Nailed it.

[Skjellyfetti]

Let's not even consider the broader War on Terror. Let's just deal with Afghanistan. If we want to eventually leave... how do we do it without negotiating with the Taliban, hunting down and killing every Taliban... one by one..., or nuking the entire country?

And, yes. I think it's possible to negotiate with the Taliban. There are moderates inside their group. We've been negotiating with them for about a year now.
http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2 ... _talk_coll" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's a speech by Hillary Clinton emphasizing the need for reconciliation with the moderate elements of the Taliban:
http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2011/02/156815.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[citdog]

Let's not even consider the broader War on Terror. Let's just deal with Afghanistan. If we want to eventually leave... how do we do it without negotiating with the Taliban, hunting down and killing every Taliban... one by one..., or nuking the entire country?

And, yes. I think it's possible to negotiate with the Taliban. There are moderates inside their group. We've been negotiating with them for over a year now.
http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2 ... _talk_coll" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's a speech by Hillary Clinton emphasizing the need for reconciliation with the moderate elements of the Taliban:
http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2011/02/156815.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

fucking dems negotiating with the enemy

[TwinTownBisonFan]

Let's not even consider the broader War on Terror. Let's just deal with Afghanistan. If we want to eventually leave... how do we do it without negotiating with the Taliban, hunting down and killing every Taliban... one by one..., or nuking the entire country?

And, yes. I think it's possible to negotiate with the Taliban. There are moderates inside their group. We've been negotiating with them for about a year now.
http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2 ... _talk_coll" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's a speech by Hillary Clinton emphasizing the need for reconciliation with the moderate elements of the Taliban:
http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2011/02/156815.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the "moderate elements" need to GTFO of the Taliban... stand on their own fucking feet - and then we talk...

the Taliban is, and will always be... two bit extremist thugs in full support of terrorists and their agenda.

[Skjellyfetti]

the "moderate elements" need to GTFO of the Taliban... stand on their own fucking feet - and then we talk...

the Taliban is, and will always be... two bit extremist thugs in full support of terrorists and their agenda.

If we want to eventually leave... how do we do it without negotiating with the Taliban, hunting down and killing every Taliban... one by one..., or nuking the entire country?

[TwinTownBisonFan]

the "moderate elements" need to GTFO of the Taliban... stand on their own fucking feet - and then we talk...

the Taliban is, and will always be... two bit extremist thugs in full support of terrorists and their agenda.

If we want to eventually leave... how do we do it without negotiating with the Taliban, hunting down and killing every Taliban... one by one..., or nuking the entire country?

Withdraw to Bagram and blow the fuckers up one-by-one. You bet your ass. 3,000 Americans dead at their hands. You bet your ass I want each and every one of them dead. My view on this hasn't changed. I wanted us in Afghanistan BEFORE 9-11... (I wrote a paper my freshman year of college in 2000 about the need to involve ourselves in Afghanistan - that the Taliban wouldn't stop at their own country) I sure as hell don't want to stop now.

[GannonFan]

Withdraw to Bagram and blow the **** up one-by-one. You bet your ass. 3,000 Americans dead at their hands. You bet your ass I want each and every one of them dead. My view on this hasn't changed. I wanted us in Afghanistan BEFORE 9-11... (I wrote a paper my freshman year of college in 2000 about the need to involve ourselves in Afghanistan - that the Taliban wouldn't stop at their own country) I sure as hell don't want to stop now.

See, that's the thing, though. By your method we'd be in our 11th year in Afghanistan and would we be any further along than we are today? Probably not. The place isn't going to be a stable area. You can't create a strong government, especially when the place doesn't have things like roads and infrastructure. If the option is to keep 100,000 soldiers in the country indefinitely with the hope that we can build them a nation in a decade or two, or, instead, bug out now and lob some cruise missiles and drones and the occasional special forces drop when we need to clear out some terrorists or Taliban whackos, then I go with option two. Far less Americans to be put in harms way and we still keep Afghanistan under control.