The Ukraine Crisis

[SeattleGriz]

Ukraine hasn't been able to even make it to Russia's first defensive line

Yeah, that is no longer the case. They've maintained a foothold past the Surovikin Line west of Verbove since August.

But, really, every tree line has been a defensive line with trenches that have to be cleared. But, I'm assuming when you say "first defensive line" - you're talking about the Surovikin Line.

Do you have any links on that? I've given up on the whole land movement and the Ukrainians being able to do anything of value in their assault.

[kalm]

Seagriz…

These are the good guys right? Just defending themselves against NATO and Nazis?

Is the the new Mueller She Wrote account? You remember what your past Twitter clip surfing wrought you.

How about you get serious instead of flippant?

Did you even watch the clip? From your post, I doubt it.

Russia sent a missile attack yesterday on a grocery store and cafe in a small town yesterday, killing over 50.

How did you celebrate last night?

[SeattleGriz]

Is the the new Mueller She Wrote account? You remember what your past Twitter clip surfing wrought you.

How about you get serious instead of flippant?

Did you even watch the clip? From your post, I doubt it.

Russia sent a missile attack yesterday on a grocery store and cafe in a small town yesterday, killing over 50.

How did you celebrate last night?

First you throw up a false choice fallacy, then retreat to a story you can't corroborate.

How's it feel to be so incapable of navigating real news and defending your outlandish claims?

[kalm]

Russia sent a missile attack yesterday on a grocery store and cafe in a small town yesterday, killing over 50.

How did you celebrate last night?

First you throw up a false choice fallacy, then retreat to a story you can't corroborate.

How's it feel to be so incapable of navigating real news and defending your outlandish claims?

Huh?

A Russian in his own words.

A widely reported news story.

The more trapped, the funnier you get. 2nd career in crazy uncle is just around the corner.

[SeattleGriz]

First you throw up a false choice fallacy, then retreat to a story you can't corroborate.

How's it feel to be so incapable of navigating real news and defending your outlandish claims?

Huh?

A Russian in his own words.

A widely reported news story.

The more trapped, the funnier you get. 2nd career in crazy uncle is just around the corner.

And what did he say before the part you are trying to parse and act like it was the complete conversation.

False choice fallacy.

[kalm]

Is the the new Mueller She Wrote account? You remember what your past Twitter clip surfing wrought you.

How about you get serious instead of flippant?

Did you even watch the clip? From your post, I doubt it.

Russia sent a missile attack yesterday on a grocery store and cafe in a small town yesterday, killing over 50.

How did you celebrate last night?

Ooooh! What did he say before? Did it soften the fascist propaganda in this clip?!?

[UNI88]

Russia sent a missile attack yesterday on a grocery store and cafe in a small town yesterday, killing over 50.

How did you celebrate last night?

First you throw up a false choice fallacy, then retreat to a story you can't corroborate.

How's it feel to be so incapable of navigating real news and defending your outlandish claims?

False choice fallacy, kind of like when you posted this to me?

You're fine with all that? 10,000 plus innocent civilians? Because of shit you most likely had no hand in participation, we are going to kill, rape and murder you.

Absolutely stunning admission by you.

You don't like it when your tactics are used against you?

[SeattleGriz]

First you throw up a false choice fallacy, then retreat to a story you can't corroborate.

How's it feel to be so incapable of navigating real news and defending your outlandish claims?

False choice fallacy, kind of like when you posted this to me?

You're fine with all that? 10,000 plus innocent civilians? Because of shit you most likely had no hand in participation, we are going to kill, rape and murder you.

Absolutely stunning admission by you.

You don't like it when your tactics are used against you?

Do some research on the OSCE and their numbers. You disgustingly support the ethnic cleansing of the E Ukrainians because you are too lazy to do any research. You've proven that over and over.

Also, false choice is when you present someone with only two choices, like good and bad, with no middle ground.

How does my stating data from the OSCE present a false choice fallacy?

[UNI88]

False choice fallacy, kind of like when you posted this to me?

You don't like it when your tactics are used against you?

Do some research on the OSCE and their numbers. You disgustingly support the ethnic cleansing of the E Ukrainians because you are too lazy to do any research. You've proven that over and over.

Also, false choice is when you present someone with only two choices, like good and bad, with no middle ground.

How does my stating data from the OSCE present a false choice fallacy?

So it was a false choice when kalm asked you "How did you celebrate last night?" after "Russia sent a missile attack yesterday on a grocery store and cafe in a small town yesterday, killing over 50."?

But it wasn't a false choice when you asked me if I was "fine with all that?" over "10,000 plus innocent civilians? Because of shit you most likely had no hand in participation, we are going to kill, rape and murder you."?

People in glass houses ...

[SeattleGriz]

Do some research on the OSCE and their numbers. You disgustingly support the ethnic cleansing of the E Ukrainians because you are too lazy to do any research. You've proven that over and over.

Also, false choice is when you present someone with only two choices, like good and bad, with no middle ground.

How does my stating data from the OSCE present a false choice fallacy?

So it was a false choice when kalm asked you "How did you celebrate last night?" after "Russia sent a missile attack yesterday on a grocery store and cafe in a small town yesterday, killing over 50."?

But it wasn't a false choice when you asked me if I was "fine with all that?" over "10,000 plus innocent civilians? Because of shit you most likely had no hand in participation, we are going to kill, rape and murder you."?

People in glass houses ...

Holy shit, I thought you said you read A LOT. You sure seem to miss the obvious point.

Reread what I said. Kalm presented a false choice when he implied the Russians were solely evil, when in fact, if you watched the video, he stated the Ukrainians hate the Russians and he expected the Russians to have to resort to extreme measures to protect themselves. There's a hell of a lot of nuance to that situation as opposed to good/bad. That was the logical fallacy.

[UNI88]

So it was a false choice when kalm asked you "How did you celebrate last night?" after "Russia sent a missile attack yesterday on a grocery store and cafe in a small town yesterday, killing over 50."?

But it wasn't a false choice when you asked me if I was "fine with all that?" over "10,000 plus innocent civilians? Because of shit you most likely had no hand in participation, we are going to kill, rape and murder you."?

People in glass houses ...

Holy shit, I thought you said you read A LOT. You sure seem to miss the obvious point.

Reread what I said. Kalm presented a false choice when he implied the Russians were solely evil, when in fact, if you watched the video, he stated the Ukrainians hate the Russians and he expected the Russians to have to resort to extreme measures to protect themselves. There's a hell of a lot of nuance to that situation as opposed to good/bad. That was the logical fallacy.

Holy shit is right. How is that different then you presenting me with a false choice between not supporting Ukraine or being fine with the death of 10,000 plus innocent civilians? There's "a hell of a lot of nuance to that situation as opposed to good/bad" too.

[kalm]

Holy shit, I thought you said you read A LOT. You sure seem to miss the obvious point.

Reread what I said. Kalm presented a false choice when he implied the Russians were solely evil, when in fact, if you watched the video, he stated the Ukrainians hate the Russians and he expected the Russians to have to resort to extreme measures to protect themselves. There's a hell of a lot of nuance to that situation as opposed to good/bad. That was the logical fallacy.

Holy shit is right. How is that different then you presenting me with a false choice between not supporting Ukraine or being fine with the death of 10,000 plus innocent civilians? There's "a hell of a lot of nuance to that situation as opposed to good/bad" too.

Someone needs a timeout.

[SeattleGriz]

Holy shit, I thought you said you read A LOT. You sure seem to miss the obvious point.

Reread what I said. Kalm presented a false choice when he implied the Russians were solely evil, when in fact, if you watched the video, he stated the Ukrainians hate the Russians and he expected the Russians to have to resort to extreme measures to protect themselves. There's a hell of a lot of nuance to that situation as opposed to good/bad. That was the logical fallacy.

Holy shit is right. How is that different then you presenting me with a false choice between not supporting Ukraine or being fine with the death of 10,000 plus innocent civilians? There's "a hell of a lot of nuance to that situation as opposed to good/bad" too.

You've got a point, but at this point you've denied 10,000+ deaths have been confirmed by the OSCE, so you've turned the conversation into an either/or. I've responded in kind with your ridiculous assertion.

[UNI88]

Holy shit is right. How is that different then you presenting me with a false choice between not supporting Ukraine or being fine with the death of 10,000 plus innocent civilians? There's "a hell of a lot of nuance to that situation as opposed to good/bad" too.

You've got a point, but at this point you've denied 10,000+ deaths have been confirmed by the OSCE, so you've turned the conversation into an either/or. I've responded in kind with your ridiculous assertion.

When did I deny the 10,000+ deaths? I would think that's a conservative estimate.

We probably disagree on who is responsible for the deaths of those 10,000+ people.

[houndawg]

Holy shit is right. How is that different then you presenting me with a false choice between not supporting Ukraine or being fine with the death of 10,000 plus innocent civilians? There's "a hell of a lot of nuance to that situation as opposed to good/bad" too.

You've got a point, but at this point you've denied 10,000+ deaths have been confirmed by the OSCE, so you've turned the conversation into an either/or. I've responded in kind with your ridiculous assertion.

Once again, SG, sometimes a guy, especially you, should just take the L and go home and declare victory...

[UNI88]

Here's an expert's (former Royal Navy officer and frigate captain) opinion:

Russia has been politically embarrassed, operationally dominated and tactically outfought

Operationally, the Ukrainians have the upper hand in the Black Sea. Russia is being forced to react and is doing so in a disconnected way. Command and control appears fractured, missions are haphazard and poorly planned. The loss of Sevastopol can only make this worse.

Tactically the Ukrainians are showing great levels of ingenuity and flexibility with coordinated multi-domain attacks using a blend of traditional and novel weapon systems. Navies and procurement departments around the world will be pouring over the lessons from this at a fundamental level – or at least should be.

SG - I'm using Yahoo because the Telegraph piece is behind paywall.

[houndawg]

Here's an expert's (former Royal Navy officer and frigate captain) opinion:

Russia has been politically embarrassed, operationally dominated and tactically outfought

Operationally, the Ukrainians have the upper hand in the Black Sea. Russia is being forced to react and is doing so in a disconnected way. Command and control appears fractured, missions are haphazard and poorly planned. The loss of Sevastopol can only make this worse.

Tactically the Ukrainians are showing great levels of ingenuity and flexibility with coordinated multi-domain attacks using a blend of traditional and novel weapon systems. Navies and procurement departments around the world will be pouring over the lessons from this at a fundamental level – or at least should be.

SG - I'm using Yahoo because the Telegraph piece is behind paywall.

they're going to need all that and more against The Master Strategist

[SeattleGriz]

You've got a point, but at this point you've denied 10,000+ deaths have been confirmed by the OSCE, so you've turned the conversation into an either/or. I've responded in kind with your ridiculous assertion.

Once again, SG, sometimes a guy, especially you, should just take the L and go home and declare victory...

Houndy trying to impress UNI.

[houndawg]

Once again, SG, sometimes a guy, especially you, should just take the L and go home and declare victory...

Houndy trying to impress UNI.

..you're making the impression on your own, I was advising you because I felt like I was watching Trump and the disabled reporter all over again and your twitching and convulsing played to my bleeding heart.

[houndawg]

Yeah, that is no longer the case. They've maintained a foothold past the Surovikin Line west of Verbove since August.

But, really, every tree line has been a defensive line with trenches that have to be cleared. But, I'm assuming when you say "first defensive line" - you're talking about the Surovikin Line.

Do you have any links on that? I've given up on the whole land movement and the Ukrainians being able to do anything of value in their assault.

All the military guys have been saying its going to be trench warfare for a long time with little movement. Of course these are the same guys that were saying that Russia would make short work of Ukraine.

[SeattleGriz]

Do you have any links on that? I've given up on the whole land movement and the Ukrainians being able to do anything of value in their assault.

All the military guys have been saying its going to be trench warfare for a long time with little movement. Of course these are the same guys that were saying that Russia would make short work of Ukraine.

This is a totally new style of war. The Intelligence Surveillance and Reconnaissance (ISR) is making it so no one can move without being noticed. Of course Russia still maintains a far greater capability than Ukraine in artillery, so they can just keep inching along and chewing up Ukraine, albeit slowly.

Who are "all the military guys".

[houndawg]

All the military guys have been saying its going to be trench warfare for a long time with little movement. Of course these are the same guys that were saying that Russia would make short work of Ukraine.

This is a totally new style of war. The Intelligence Surveillance and Reconnaissance (ISR) is making it so no one can move without being noticed. Of course Russia still maintains a far greater capability than Ukraine in artillery, so they can just keep inching along and chewing up Ukraine, albeit slowly.

Who are "all the military guys".

The ones that are all over the media giving opinion.

[kalm]

All the military guys have been saying its going to be trench warfare for a long time with little movement. Of course these are the same guys that were saying that Russia would make short work of Ukraine.

This is a totally new style of war. The Intelligence Surveillance and Reconnaissance (ISR) is making it so no one can move without being noticed. Of course Russia still maintains a far greater capability than Ukraine in artillery, so they can just keep inching along and chewing up Ukraine, albeit slowly.

Who are "all the military guys".

Russia is inching forward?

[SeattleGriz]

This is a totally new style of war. The Intelligence Surveillance and Reconnaissance (ISR) is making it so no one can move without being noticed. Of course Russia still maintains a far greater capability than Ukraine in artillery, so they can just keep inching along and chewing up Ukraine, albeit slowly.

Who are "all the military guys".

The ones that are all over the media giving opinion.

Oh yes. The ones who said Russia blew up its own pipeline. Gotcha.

[SeattleGriz]

This is a totally new style of war. The Intelligence Surveillance and Reconnaissance (ISR) is making it so no one can move without being noticed. Of course Russia still maintains a far greater capability than Ukraine in artillery, so they can just keep inching along and chewing up Ukraine, albeit slowly.

Who are "all the military guys".

Russia is inching forward?

According to the NYT, Russia has gained 330 sq miles over Ukraine this last year. But the key word in my statement was, "can", not "are", although when I reread what I posted can see what you are asking. I could have been more clear.