The Ukraine Crisis

[kalm]

Oh. You want a deep discussion about this one? Do you think a stern talking to amounts to a deep discussion?

I think the entire international community has an obligation to intercede here. I do not like my country being complicit to what amounts to a genocide. Israel was created due to religious history and to provide safe haven from persecution and…ironically, genocide. Not to subjugate the other people who already lived there.

Israel has a right to exist and we should support that right. But we do so without any strings attached due mostly to AIPAC.

By not using at least temporary suspension of weapons and financials as a carrot why would anything change?

We are supporting one of the world’s current leading terrorists and his cabinet who are killing kids with our bombs and support.

We are better than this.

What is it that we actually want? Why would anyone listen to us when we don't appear to have any thoughts or ideas on what a peaceful solution would look like? Of course we want a cessation of hostilities - an election is coming up and this issue certainly causes divisions in at least one of our political parties. Shockingly, that hasn't moved the needle on Israel's or Hamas's side to change anything.

We spent the past 4 years castigating Netanyahu and telling everyone what a bad person he is, we spent the past 4 years still trying to reinvent an agreement with Iran from 10 years ago that wasn't a good idea then and surely isn't now, we spent the past 4 years trying to ostracize Saudia Arabia until we figured out that we needed some help in the region and friends, or at least not-enemies, were hard to come by. And of course it's not just this administration, while Trump had success with his Abraham Accords, he didn't do much on the Palestinian side for them, especially when it came to the infringements of Israel's settlements into more and more Palestinian land.

But then again, if the Palestinians were really about peace, they probably should've chosen peace on the multiple times that we stepped into the morass and brought both sides to the table and peace was an option, but Palestine walked away every time. School books in Palestine, if any are left after this, described Jews as non-human and advocated the complete annihilation of Israel. Let's be honest, given the amount of antisemitism that exists in most of the world, I'm sure plenty of countries are good with this. It makes our discussions here of posting the Ten Commandments in rooms and having books celebrate transgenderism as tame by comparison. And this recent explosion of violence was brought on by Hamas, the popularly elected government in Palestine, viscously attacking, raping, ripping bodies apart in the streets while raping them, and then taking hundreds hostage back into tunnels and amongst the population of human shields to further their cause, and occasionally executing these poor souls. There's rarely any mention of this in protests against Israel to stop trying to wipe out Hamas, almost as if Hamas hasn't been doing anything to criticize for the past year, if not the past two decades.

We should be able to work with Israel and we should be able to step to the forefront and bring about a peaceful cessation of current violence. And we should be able to bring both sides to the table and hammer out a long term solution that at least keeps events like Hamas's Oct 7 massacre from happening. But we've failed too many times in the current administration (and others before it, sure, but like with place kickers, you're only as good as your last kick) in too many foreign policy venues that we're impotent right now to do anything, especially considering that we can't turn our focus from a super tight election. It's fine, and it's right, to demand the killing stop immediately. But it's doomed for failure without the follow through to find a more stable future.

Whoa there…Captain Zone Flooder! How about 1 or 2 points at a time? There are a number of flaws in your soliloquy but what’s the point?

Honest question…did you copy and paste this from one of your earlier posts? It’s strikingly familiar.

[UNI88]

What is it that we actually want? Why would anyone listen to us when we don't appear to have any thoughts or ideas on what a peaceful solution would look like? Of course we want a cessation of hostilities - an election is coming up and this issue certainly causes divisions in at least one of our political parties. Shockingly, that hasn't moved the needle on Israel's or Hamas's side to change anything.

We spent the past 4 years castigating Netanyahu and telling everyone what a bad person he is, we spent the past 4 years still trying to reinvent an agreement with Iran from 10 years ago that wasn't a good idea then and surely isn't now, we spent the past 4 years trying to ostracize Saudia Arabia until we figured out that we needed some help in the region and friends, or at least not-enemies, were hard to come by. And of course it's not just this administration, while Trump had success with his Abraham Accords, he didn't do much on the Palestinian side for them, especially when it came to the infringements of Israel's settlements into more and more Palestinian land.

But then again, if the Palestinians were really about peace, they probably should've chosen peace on the multiple times that we stepped into the morass and brought both sides to the table and peace was an option, but Palestine walked away every time. School books in Palestine, if any are left after this, described Jews as non-human and advocated the complete annihilation of Israel. Let's be honest, given the amount of antisemitism that exists in most of the world, I'm sure plenty of countries are good with this. It makes our discussions here of posting the Ten Commandments in rooms and having books celebrate transgenderism as tame by comparison. And this recent explosion of violence was brought on by Hamas, the popularly elected government in Palestine, viscously attacking, raping, ripping bodies apart in the streets while raping them, and then taking hundreds hostage back into tunnels and amongst the population of human shields to further their cause, and occasionally executing these poor souls. There's rarely any mention of this in protests against Israel to stop trying to wipe out Hamas, almost as if Hamas hasn't been doing anything to criticize for the past year, if not the past two decades.

We should be able to work with Israel and we should be able to step to the forefront and bring about a peaceful cessation of current violence. And we should be able to bring both sides to the table and hammer out a long term solution that at least keeps events like Hamas's Oct 7 massacre from happening. But we've failed too many times in the current administration (and others before it, sure, but like with place kickers, you're only as good as your last kick) in too many foreign policy venues that we're impotent right now to do anything, especially considering that we can't turn our focus from a super tight election. It's fine, and it's right, to demand the killing stop immediately. But it's doomed for failure without the follow through to find a more stable future.

Whoa there…Captain Zone Flooder! How about 1 or 2 points at a time? There are a number of flaws in your soliloquy but what’s the point?

Honest question…did you copy and paste this from one of your earlier posts? It’s strikingly familiar.

What Ganny posted was much better thought out and reasoned than Stoller's tweet that you so admired.

[GannonFan]

What is it that we actually want? Why would anyone listen to us when we don't appear to have any thoughts or ideas on what a peaceful solution would look like? Of course we want a cessation of hostilities - an election is coming up and this issue certainly causes divisions in at least one of our political parties. Shockingly, that hasn't moved the needle on Israel's or Hamas's side to change anything.

We spent the past 4 years castigating Netanyahu and telling everyone what a bad person he is, we spent the past 4 years still trying to reinvent an agreement with Iran from 10 years ago that wasn't a good idea then and surely isn't now, we spent the past 4 years trying to ostracize Saudia Arabia until we figured out that we needed some help in the region and friends, or at least not-enemies, were hard to come by. And of course it's not just this administration, while Trump had success with his Abraham Accords, he didn't do much on the Palestinian side for them, especially when it came to the infringements of Israel's settlements into more and more Palestinian land.

But then again, if the Palestinians were really about peace, they probably should've chosen peace on the multiple times that we stepped into the morass and brought both sides to the table and peace was an option, but Palestine walked away every time. School books in Palestine, if any are left after this, described Jews as non-human and advocated the complete annihilation of Israel. Let's be honest, given the amount of antisemitism that exists in most of the world, I'm sure plenty of countries are good with this. It makes our discussions here of posting the Ten Commandments in rooms and having books celebrate transgenderism as tame by comparison. And this recent explosion of violence was brought on by Hamas, the popularly elected government in Palestine, viscously attacking, raping, ripping bodies apart in the streets while raping them, and then taking hundreds hostage back into tunnels and amongst the population of human shields to further their cause, and occasionally executing these poor souls. There's rarely any mention of this in protests against Israel to stop trying to wipe out Hamas, almost as if Hamas hasn't been doing anything to criticize for the past year, if not the past two decades.

We should be able to work with Israel and we should be able to step to the forefront and bring about a peaceful cessation of current violence. And we should be able to bring both sides to the table and hammer out a long term solution that at least keeps events like Hamas's Oct 7 massacre from happening. But we've failed too many times in the current administration (and others before it, sure, but like with place kickers, you're only as good as your last kick) in too many foreign policy venues that we're impotent right now to do anything, especially considering that we can't turn our focus from a super tight election. It's fine, and it's right, to demand the killing stop immediately. But it's doomed for failure without the follow through to find a more stable future.

Whoa there…Captain Zone Flooder! How about 1 or 2 points at a time? There are a number of flaws in your soliloquy but what’s the point?

Honest question…did you copy and paste this from one of your earlier posts? It’s strikingly familiar.

I'm not a copy and paster, so no, all original typing. I assumed a pithy response, and you obliged. No specificity on the supposed flaws, just like no listing of countries flocking to China's orbit solely because of our relationship with Israel. Hey, the floor's yours, let's hear what you think - I gave you what I think, let's have at it.

[SeattleGriz]

Sensitive? Dude, I am the most desensitized person to your "but Trump" shtik. I'm shocked at how it governs your life.

I'm shocked at how responding to my but doneOLD shtick governs your life.

No answer means that you fvck the sh!t out of that fainting couch. You must have it in your s/he shed with blackout curtains over the windows so no one sees. You do realize they probably hear you calling the couch a dirty little whore though?

Whatever that rant was doesn't negate your but Trump over everything.

[kalm]

Whoa there…Captain Zone Flooder! How about 1 or 2 points at a time? There are a number of flaws in your soliloquy but what’s the point?

Honest question…did you copy and paste this from one of your earlier posts? It’s strikingly familiar.

I'm not a copy and paster, so no, all original typing. I assumed a pithy response, and you obliged. No specificity on the supposed flaws, just like no listing of countries flocking to China's orbit solely because of our relationship with Israel. Hey, the floor's yours, let's hear what you think - I gave you what I think, let's have at it.

Fine…I’ll pick one. Show me more about this “castigating of Netanyahu” and “ostracizing” of Saudi Arabia. We sold billions worth of weapons to SA in 2022 and Biden met with Bibi last September and has continued to send him money and weapons all along.

some on the left and certain journalists have been harsher critics but you don’t seriously need to have that explained why?

See? Just look at this harsh rebuke! I’m surprised Netanyahu was able to recover!

[kalm]

Whoa there…Captain Zone Flooder! How about 1 or 2 points at a time? There are a number of flaws in your soliloquy but what’s the point?

Honest question…did you copy and paste this from one of your earlier posts? It’s strikingly familiar.

What Ganny posted was much better thought out and reasoned than Stoller's tweet that you so admired.

I already granted you where I don’t agree with the sentiment to cut bait. You’re comparing a tweet reply to an entire expose and now circling back to make the point again?

You’re so dismissive one might get the impression that Stoller’s tweet at least helped you see a different perspective.

BTW…ironically, Stoller is Jewish. I didn’t realize that but it I’m guessing he’s followed these things much more than the three of us. You know it’s ok to disagree with established wisdom sometimes, right?

[SeattleGriz]

Nonsense, what they said, i.e. cutting Israel off, was lazy on their part, and just something that could be grabbed by internet denizens like yourself that like drive-by posts rather than deep discussions about tough topics. No one is advocating full-throated supported of Israel in anything and everything, and of course Israel should be censored and called to task for going too far in their response and how they've done it in Gaza. But to cut Israel off, like those posts called for, and let them fare on their own in the Middle East would be lunacy at this point and not anywhere in America's interest. Netanyahu needs to go, but that's vastly different than what those two, or even you, suggest.

Oh. You want a deep discussion about this one? Do you think a stern talking to amounts to a deep discussion?

I think the entire international community has an obligation to intercede here. I do not like my country being complicit to what amounts to a genocide. Israel was created due to religious history and to provide safe haven from persecution and…ironically, genocide. Not to subjugate the other people who already lived there.

Israel has a right to exist and we should support that right. But we do so without any strings attached due mostly to AIPAC.

By not using at least temporary suspension of weapons and financials as a carrot why would anything change?

We are supporting one of the world’s current leading terrorists and his cabinet who are killing kids with our bombs and support.

We are better than this.

We didn't do nuthin in Ukraine. We're better than that.

[SeattleGriz]

Oh. You want a deep discussion about this one? Do you think a stern talking to amounts to a deep discussion?

I think the entire international community has an obligation to intercede here. I do not like my country being complicit to what amounts to a genocide. Israel was created due to religious history and to provide safe haven from persecution and…ironically, genocide. Not to subjugate the other people who already lived there.

Israel has a right to exist and we should support that right. But we do so without any strings attached due mostly to AIPAC.

By not using at least temporary suspension of weapons and financials as a carrot why would anything change?

We are supporting one of the world’s current leading terrorists and his cabinet who are killing kids with our bombs and support.

We are better than this.

What is it that we actually want? Why would anyone listen to us when we don't appear to have any thoughts or ideas on what a peaceful solution would look like? Of course we want a cessation of hostilities - an election is coming up and this issue certainly causes divisions in at least one of our political parties. Shockingly, that hasn't moved the needle on Israel's or Hamas's side to change anything.

We spent the past 4 years castigating Netanyahu and telling everyone what a bad person he is, we spent the past 4 years still trying to reinvent an agreement with Iran from 10 years ago that wasn't a good idea then and surely isn't now, we spent the past 4 years trying to ostracize Saudia Arabia until we figured out that we needed some help in the region and friends, or at least not-enemies, were hard to come by. And of course it's not just this administration, while Trump had success with his Abraham Accords, he didn't do much on the Palestinian side for them, especially when it came to the infringements of Israel's settlements into more and more Palestinian land.

But then again, if the Palestinians were really about peace, they probably should've chosen peace on the multiple times that we stepped into the morass and brought both sides to the table and peace was an option, but Palestine walked away every time. School books in Palestine, if any are left after this, described Jews as non-human and advocated the complete annihilation of Israel. Let's be honest, given the amount of antisemitism that exists in most of the world, I'm sure plenty of countries are good with this. It makes our discussions here of posting the Ten Commandments in rooms and having books celebrate transgenderism as tame by comparison. And this recent explosion of violence was brought on by Hamas, the popularly elected government in Palestine, viscously attacking, raping, ripping bodies apart in the streets while raping them, and then taking hundreds hostage back into tunnels and amongst the population of human shields to further their cause, and occasionally executing these poor souls. There's rarely any mention of this in protests against Israel to stop trying to wipe out Hamas, almost as if Hamas hasn't been doing anything to criticize for the past year, if not the past two decades.

We should be able to work with Israel and we should be able to step to the forefront and bring about a peaceful cessation of current violence. And we should be able to bring both sides to the table and hammer out a long term solution that at least keeps events like Hamas's Oct 7 massacre from happening. But we've failed too many times in the current administration (and others before it, sure, but like with place kickers, you're only as good as your last kick) in too many foreign policy venues that we're impotent right now to do anything, especially considering that we can't turn our focus from a super tight election. It's fine, and it's right, to demand the killing stop immediately. But it's doomed for failure without the follow through to find a more stable future.

The guy you voted for allowed both wars to happen. What do you think Kamala is going to do? She'll listen to the neocons that have been running the show for the last three years.

Great job. Way to vote for Kamala.

[houndawg]

Oh. You want a deep discussion about this one? Do you think a stern talking to amounts to a deep discussion?

I think the entire international community has an obligation to intercede here. I do not like my country being complicit to what amounts to a genocide. Israel was created due to religious history and to provide safe haven from persecution and…ironically, genocide. Not to subjugate the other people who already lived there.

Israel has a right to exist and we should support that right. But we do so without any strings attached due mostly to AIPAC.

By not using at least temporary suspension of weapons and financials as a carrot why would anything change?

We are supporting one of the world’s current leading terrorists and his cabinet who are killing kids with our bombs and support.

We are better than this.

What is it that we actually want? Why would anyone listen to us when we don't appear to have any thoughts or ideas on what a peaceful solution would look like? Of course we want a cessation of hostilities - an election is coming up and this issue certainly causes divisions in at least one of our political parties. Shockingly, that hasn't moved the needle on Israel's or Hamas's side to change anything.

We spent the past 4 years castigating Netanyahu and telling everyone what a bad person he is, we spent the past 4 years still trying to reinvent an agreement with Iran from 10 years ago that wasn't a good idea then and surely isn't now, we spent the past 4 years trying to ostracize Saudia Arabia until we figured out that we needed some help in the region and friends, or at least not-enemies, were hard to come by. And of course it's not just this administration, while Trump had success with his Abraham Accords, he didn't do much on the Palestinian side for them, especially when it came to the infringements of Israel's settlements into more and more Palestinian land.

But then again, if the Palestinians were really about peace, they probably should've chosen peace on the multiple times that we stepped into the morass and brought both sides to the table and peace was an option, but Palestine walked away every time. School books in Palestine, if any are left after this, described Jews as non-human and advocated the complete annihilation of Israel. Let's be honest, given the amount of antisemitism that exists in most of the world, I'm sure plenty of countries are good with this. It makes our discussions here of posting the Ten Commandments in rooms and having books celebrate transgenderism as tame by comparison. And this recent explosion of violence was brought on by Hamas, the popularly elected government in Palestine, viscously attacking, raping, ripping bodies apart in the streets while raping them, and then taking hundreds hostage back into tunnels and amongst the population of human shields to further their cause, and occasionally executing these poor souls. There's rarely any mention of this in protests against Israel to stop trying to wipe out Hamas, almost as if Hamas hasn't been doing anything to criticize for the past year, if not the past two decades.

We should be able to work with Israel and we should be able to step to the forefront and bring about a peaceful cessation of current violence. And we should be able to bring both sides to the table and hammer out a long term solution that at least keeps events like Hamas's Oct 7 massacre from happening. But we've failed too many times in the current administration (and others before it, sure, but like with place kickers, you're only as good as your last kick) in too many foreign policy venues that we're impotent right now to do anything, especially considering that we can't turn our focus from a super tight election. It's fine, and it's right, to demand the killing stop immediately. But it's doomed for failure without the follow through to find a more stable future.

Hamas and Bibi need each other, theyare two faces of the same thing, like electricity and magnetic fields.

We should slow walk weapons that aren't defensive the same way we're slow walking them to Ukraine. Give em the red tape while Bibi is in power and make him keep begging like we do to Zelensky. When Israel changes PMs we can adjust accordingly

[SeattleGriz]

Word on the street is that Russia hit a Ukrainian training center and NATO lost a good amount of soldiers. Sweden apparently was really nailed as they were training the Ukrainians how to use a plane they donated and not only the Ukrainian soldiers, but the Swedish trainers as well.

[SDHornet]

MIC wants to keep that money flowing for weapon sales and the politicians on the Hill wan to keep the kickbacks from the corrupt Ukrainian gubmint flowing. Not really that hard to follow.

and the shooter was their highly trained assassin?

No, he was their fall guy.

[SDHornet]

Gotta love the WSJ story on Nordstream. Not one person on record. All anonymous and so many contradictions in the story.

I like how they doubled down on some drunk Ukrainian bros on a yacht that pulled of the underwater demolition op. Only the dumbest of the dumb buy that story.

[SDHornet]

What countries is he referring to? And what proof does he have that it has anything to do with Israel? Heck, you could make the argument that our inability to remove Russia from Ukraine (after being unable to persuade them not to attack in the first place) is more of a push for countries closer geographically with China to look towards aligning with China. If we aren't able to project force and pressure from a distance and stop a menacing large country from trying to gobble up a smaller neighbor, then why would a small country near China think we'll be able to protect them from China?

As for cutting bait and leaving Israel to whatever, how would that improve our international standing? If Israel is wiped off the map and millions are killed, how does that make us look better and to whom? And then when we need an ally in the Middle East to give Iran pause, and Israel no longer exists, who do we turn to?

Two twitter posts that don't signify any deep thought on the matter other than to make a post and throw it over the wall. And now you've done the same mental laziness.

And how is cutting bait and wishing Israel luck different from what MAQA yahoos want to do with Ukraine?

Populists want to follow trump's lead and placate putin, progressives want to follow the mob's lead and placate hamas?

It's not, and I think given the issues at home with domestic policy, most people are fine (at least I would hope) cutting all funding of foreign wars to handle our business here. Israel has nukes, they can handle themselves without fleecing us for funding.

[SDHornet]

...whatever the goal they sure did catch the Russians napping.

These past couple of years have to be the longest weekend Putin ever had.

From what I'm reading, Russia was clearing land mines in the area, so everyone assumed Russia would start an offensive. Looks as if Ukraine gave them the bums rush before Russia was ready. It's a feel good story for Ukraine, but it won't hold.

[SeattleGriz]

Gotta love the WSJ story on Nordstream. Not one person on record. All anonymous and so many contradictions in the story.

I like how they doubled down on some drunk Ukrainian bros on a yacht that pulled of the underwater demolition op. Only the dumbest of the dumb buy that story.

Well, they bought it. That's all that is ever brought to the table. "Unnamed source says", and then all narrative building after that.

[SeattleGriz]

From what I'm reading, Russia was clearing land mines in the area, so everyone assumed Russia would start an offensive. Looks as if Ukraine gave them the bums rush before Russia was ready. It's a feel good story for Ukraine, but it won't hold.

No kidding and they are paying for it as well.

[SeattleGriz]

Hmm. Seems NATO (US) got the message that using NATO/US satellites and then having NATO/US put those coordinates into the system, is a line Putin isn't going to allow. Must've been the 600+ NATO trainers that mysteriously died in Ukraine two weeks ago.

Neocons must believe they will be safe even if they bring about a world war.

[Skjellyfetti]

Must've been the 600+ NATO trainers that mysteriously died in Ukraine two weeks ago.

link?

i assume we'll hear as much about that as your "high ranking NATO officials" captured in Azovstal story

[SeattleGriz]

Must've been the 600+ NATO trainers that mysteriously died in Ukraine two weeks ago.

link?

i assume we'll hear as much about that as your "high ranking NATO officials" captured in Azovstal story

Boy for a guy who acts likes he's following a subject, you sure haven't heard much.



US media has been scrubbed hard. While this only says 50, Ukrainian social. media has the larger numbers.

NY Times archived story.

https://archive.ph/YEPXi

[kalm]

link?

i assume we'll hear as much about that as your "high ranking NATO officials" captured in Azovstal story

Boy for a guy who acts likes he's following a subject, you sure haven't heard much.



US media has been scrubbed hard. While this only says 50, Ukrainian social. media has the larger numbers.

NY Times archived story.

https://archive.ph/YEPXi

Lord Bebo! The “anti-woke, anti-hypocrisy, anti-fake news” noble aristocrat has spoken!

[SeattleGriz]

Boy for a guy who acts likes he's following a subject, you sure haven't heard much.



US media has been scrubbed hard. While this only says 50, Ukrainian social. media has the larger numbers.

NY Times archived story.

https://archive.ph/YEPXi

Lord Bebo! The “anti-woke, anti-hypocrisy, anti-fake news” noble aristocrat has spoken!

Oooh. You must've been itching to unleash that zinger!

Why do you think I included the NYT to back it up?

[kalm]

Lord Bebo! The “anti-woke, anti-hypocrisy, anti-fake news” noble aristocrat has spoken!

Oooh. You must've been itching to unleash that zinger!

Why do you think I included the NYT to back it up?

I had never heard of Lord Bebo before today so thank you for the laugh.

Unless official sources publicly release the numbers to your satisfaction you’ll keep believing Lord Bebo.

And I don’t trust the NYT when it comes to war reporting. See Iraq.

[Skjellyfetti]

Why do you think I included the NYT to back it up?

The NY Times article doesn't mention anything about NATO troops getting killed in the strike. Much less 600.

So, you have nothing again. Just like the high ranking NATO officials that you so desperately wanted to be captured at Azovstal.

[SeattleGriz]

Why do you think I included the NYT to back it up?

The NY Times article doesn't mention anything about NATO troops getting killed in the strike. Much less 600.

So, you have nothing again. Just like the high ranking NATO officials that you so desperately wanted to be captured at Azovstal.

Yes. All those air ambulances to other countries was a ruse and Russia blew up their own pipeline. You keep buying what the MSM tells you. It's why there is a thread about you buying Trump Russia collusion.

[Skjellyfetti]

There's nothing indicating they were air ambulances except Lord Bebo's hunch