Unfortunately a racist bone is growing in my body..

[JoltinJoe]

Funny, as I was reading your posts, I was thinking why do non-religious types always want to call bad guys "Christian" because they attended church with their family when they were five years old? Here is a guy who, as a grown up, claimed to be "agnostic" and said, "Science is my Religion."

That you call him a Christian because he used to attend Mass as a five-year old child -- even though he said he has lost touch with his childhodd faith and has never returned -- is remarkable enough. But that you then follow that with this observation is priceless.

MJ, hate to break the news, but McVeigh is one of your "clan."

Whatever, Joe.

So then, at least by MJ's definition, you are Christian. Your parents took you to Catholic Mass as a child (you even went to Catholic grammar school); since your childhood, you have lost touch with your childhood faith, and have never returned; and you are most certainly agnostic who has said, in the past, words to the effect that science is your religion.

So I claim all the good you do in the name of Christianity. Glad to have you aboard.

But the moment you blow up a building, I will call you non-religious.

[dbackjon]

So the abortion bombers are non-religous?

The pope, back in the day, when he slaughtered thousands, was non-religous?

[JoltinJoe]

So the abortion bombers are non-religous?

The pope, back in the day, when he slaughtered thousands, was non-religous?

I never said that. The abortion bombers are religious, although severely misguided, and the mnay bad popes in history were certainly religious although drunk with worldly power.

I'm saying McVeigh was not religious.

[dbackjon]

So the abortion bombers are non-religous?

The pope, back in the day, when he slaughtered thousands, was non-religous?

I never said that. The abortion bombers are religious, although severely misguided, and the mnay bad popes in history were certainly religious although drunk with worldly power.

I'm saying McVeigh was not religious.

It took you two posts to contradict yourself...

From previous post...

But the moment you blow up a building, I will call you non-religious.

[JoltinJoe]

I never said that. The abortion bombers are religious, although severely misguided, and the mnay bad popes in history were certainly religious although drunk with worldly power.

I'm saying McVeigh was not religious.

It took you two posts to contradict yourself...

From previous post...

But the moment you blow up a building, I will call you non-religious.

That was just a joke to brighten Jeff's day.

[AZGrizFan]

Oh, bullshit. GWB was bound and determined to attack Iraq, and just needed a flimsy excuse. That's been proven beyond any reasonable doubt. That argument won't fly here....

Thanks for proving my point chief


Why was he so gung ho to attack? Why did we still attack even after evidence surfaced that proved his flimsy excuse wrong?

From someone who knows the situation a little better than us:

"The president, he said, 'failed to act prior to September 11 on the threat from al Qaeda despite repeated warnings and then harvested a political windfall for taking obvious yet insufficient steps after the attacks.' The rapid shift of focus to Saddam Hussein, Clarke writes, 'launched an unnecessary and costly war in Iraq that strengthened the fundamentalist, radical Islamic terrorist movement worldwide.' "

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dy ... ge=printer

You've got it exactly backwards. President Bush didn't ask ANY questions. He'd already made up his mind he was going into Iraq. He just needed an excuse. Your argument is apples and oranges.

[JMU DJ]

You've got it exactly backwards. President Bush didn't ask ANY questions. He'd already made up his mind he was going into Iraq. He just needed an excuse. Your argument is apples and oranges.

Your reading aptitude must be at the 3rd grade level. Of course he didn't ask any questions before he chose to go into Iraq, he just did it because he wanted to, that's what I've been saying this whole time. If he had of taken his thumb out of his ass and actually thought the situation through, then maybe things would be different, that's the point Z.


It doesn't matter who ask the questions, the fact is it wasn't thought through and was a knee jerk reaction based on flimsy evidence. Later, many people who were behind this war started asking questions.

[AZGrizFan]

You've got it exactly backwards. President Bush didn't ask ANY questions. He'd already made up his mind he was going into Iraq. He just needed an excuse. Your argument is apples and oranges.

Your reading aptitude must be at the 3rd grade level. Of course he didn't ask any questions before he chose to go into Iraq, he just did it because he wanted to, that's what I've been saying this whole time. If he had of taken his thumb out of his ass and actually thought the situation through, then maybe things would be different, that's the point Z.


It doesn't matter who ask the questions, the fact is it wasn't thought through and was a knee jerk reaction based on flimsy evidence. Later, many people who were behind this war started asking questions.

What's with the fucking personal slams? Reaction to WHAT, exactly? Bush was going into Iraq even if 9/11 hadn't happened. The "evidence" was WMD. Blaming terrorism was a convenient backup plan.

[JMU DJ]

What's with the fucking personal slams? Reaction to WHAT, exactly? Bush was going into Iraq even if 9/11 hadn't happened. The "evidence" was WMD. Blaming terrorism was a convenient backup plan.

My apologies Z. Coming back with the same line of thought as I have and using it as a defense to what I've said.

So I guess as long as it falls under the Bush Doctrine and preventative war, it's ok to jump to concussions? Got it.

[AZGrizFan]

What's with the fucking personal slams? Reaction to WHAT, exactly? Bush was going into Iraq even if 9/11 hadn't happened. The "evidence" was WMD. Blaming terrorism was a convenient backup plan.

My apologies Z. Coming back with the same line of thought as I have and using it as a defense to what I've said.

So I guess as long as it falls under the Bush Doctrine and preventative war, it's ok to jump to concussions? Got it.

Honestly, I don't think I'm making myself clear. You stated early on that it was the "act first, ask questions later attitude that got us into attacking the wrong country." The reason THAT argument doesn't apply here is that Bush had no intention of "asking questions" regarding invading Iraq. I've come to believe that he fully intended to invade Iraq upon being elected president (to finish what his father started and to "get" Hussein for the failed assasination attempt). There were no "questions" he could have or would have asked that would have changed his mind on that. Your implication is that, had he asked the "right" questions, we never would have invaded the "wrong" country. My point is that Iraq was GETTING invaded, it was only a matter of when. The spin (terrorism, Al Quada connections, etc) started AFTER the war was pretty much over and the occupation had begun.

And that's my only point here---that implication that we could have avoided war with Iraq if Bush had just been smart enough to ask the right questions. I simiply don't believe that's true. And that's what makes the Iraq war such a gross miscarriage of justice.

[mainejeff]

Yeah.....OK......whatever you say Mr. Know-It-All.......

Why is it that no one ever wants to claim idiots as their own? It's the same old story with Christians, Muslims, Republicans, Democrats........they only want to be associated with members of their clans that make them look good.

Funny, as I was reading your posts, I was thinking why do non-religious types always want to call bad guys "Christian" because they attended church with their family when they were five years old? Here is a guy who, as a grown up, claimed to be "agnostic" and said, "Science is my Religion."

That you call him a Christian because he used to attend Mass as a five-year old child -- even though he said he has lost touch with his childhodd faith and has never returned -- is remarkable enough. But that you then follow that with this observation is priceless.

MJ, hate to break the news, but McVeigh is one of your "clan."

Uh-huh.........I guess we should call you and your ilk, Teflon Christians.......

Good Christians are "good" Christians........until they turn into "bad" Christians.......and then they aren't "Christians" anymore..........I get it now.

[D1B]

Funny, as I was reading your posts, I was thinking why do non-religious types always want to call bad guys "Christian" because they attended church with their family when they were five years old? Here is a guy who, as a grown up, claimed to be "agnostic" and said, "Science is my Religion."

That you call him a Christian because he used to attend Mass as a five-year old child -- even though he said he has lost touch with his childhodd faith and has never returned -- is remarkable enough. But that you then follow that with this observation is priceless.

MJ, hate to break the news, but McVeigh is one of your "clan."

Uh-huh.........I guess we should call you and your ilk, Teflon Christians.......

Good Christians are "good" Christians........until they turn into "bad" Christians.......and then they aren't "Christians" anymore..........I get it now.

Hey, give Joe a break. His is a tough job. It takes a lot of balls to defend pedophiles, murderers, terrorists, islamicists, abortion clinic bombers, child suicide bombers, misguided moral tyrants like the fuckin pope, mormons, scientologists.....

[JoltinJoe]

Funny, as I was reading your posts, I was thinking why do non-religious types always want to call bad guys "Christian" because they attended church with their family when they were five years old? Here is a guy who, as a grown up, claimed to be "agnostic" and said, "Science is my Religion."

That you call him a Christian because he used to attend Mass as a five-year old child -- even though he said he has lost touch with his childhodd faith and has never returned -- is remarkable enough. But that you then follow that with this observation is priceless.

MJ, hate to break the news, but McVeigh is one of your "clan."

Uh-huh.........I guess we should call you and your ilk, Teflon Christians.......

Good Christians are "good" Christians........until they turn into "bad" Christians.......and then they aren't "Christians" anymore..........I get it now.

I'm glad you disagree, because you are about the only person I've ever known who is NEVER right.

Says he is an agnostic and "science is my religion." You say that means he's a Christian.

[JMU DJ]

Honestly, I don't think I'm making myself clear. You stated early on that it was the "act first, ask questions later attitude that got us into attacking the wrong country." The reason THAT argument doesn't apply here is that Bush had no intention of "asking questions" regarding invading Iraq. I've come to believe that he fully intended to invade Iraq upon being elected president (to finish what his father started and to "get" Hussein for the failed assasination attempt). There were no "questions" he could have or would have asked that would have changed his mind on that. Your implication is that, had he asked the "right" questions, we never would have invaded the "wrong" country. My point is that Iraq was GETTING invaded, it was only a matter of when. The spin (terrorism, Al Quada connections, etc) started AFTER the war was pretty much over and the occupation had begun.

And that's my only point here---that implication that we could have avoided war with Iraq if Bush had just been smart enough to ask the right questions. I simiply don't believe that's true. And that's what makes the Iraq war such a gross miscarriage of justice.

Got that. So perhaps the second half of my original statement is slightly inaccurate... and I wasn't saying the intention was to "ask questions" later. The meat of that statement is that we've blindly made decisions in the past that have led us down a path of destruction and negativity and haven't thought about the repercussions until it's to late. Perhaps I erred with the "ask questions" later/think about the big picture later as Dubya didn't seem to think about these things.... however, now that we are clear, that was the original intent of my statement. Sometimes the gross estimation turns out to be correct, but jumping to these conclusions every time is a bad path to go down.

[AZGrizFan]

Got that. So perhaps the second half of my original statement is slightly inaccurate... and I wasn't saying the intention was to "ask questions" later. The meat of that statement is that we've blindly made decisions in the past that have led us down a path of destruction and negativity and haven't thought about the repercussions until it's to late. Perhaps I erred with the "ask questions" later/think about the big picture later as Dubya didn't seem to think about these things.... however, now that we are clear, that was the original intent of my statement. Sometimes the gross estimation turns out to be correct, but jumping to these conclusions every time is a bad path to go down.

Dubya didn't go into Iraq "blindly". He knew full well what he was doing, and the reasoning behind it. What he didn't THINK about, was how to get OUT.

[Appaholic]

So? I don't see you up in arms about Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Scientologist, etc for their mass distribution of religious literature.

By your logic, we should just put all the people who are Muslim into internment camps until we have eradicated terrorism from the world/United States. There are plenty of Muslim individuals who are working to make this country a better place and it's ignorant people who assume that they are all terrorist who shouldn't be trusted.

DJ, the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and Scientologist are not preaching violent or even non-violent subjugation of those who do not believe as they do.

The Wahabbist-funded mosques in the USA are preaching aggrssive promulgation sharia law, which by definition subjugates non-muslims. Middle class American muslims, the vast majority of whom are well-meaning, are nonetheless hiding behind the charade of a personal definition of jihad which all too often morphs seemlessly into the terrorist definition of jihad inside the protection of the mosque and its teachings, with little or no social consequences inside the faith for those who cross the line.

The FLDS does...& they are to Mormons what Wahhabists are to Islam....

[mainejeff]

I'm glad you disagree, because you are about the only person I've ever known who is NEVER right.

Says he is an agnostic and "science is my religion." You say that means he's a Christian.

Christians don't believe in science? Christians NEVER question their beliefs?

Glad you're feeling good about yourself......that's right, I'm never right and you're never wrong.

JJ........you are a typical "Christian" a-hole..........

[JoltinJoe]

I'm glad you disagree, because you are about the only person I've ever known who is NEVER right.

Says he is an agnostic and "science is my religion." You say that means he's a Christian.

Christians don't believe in science? Christians NEVER question their beliefs?

Glad you're feeling good about yourself......that's right, I'm never right and you're never wrong.

JJ........you are a typical "Christian" a-hole..........

I never said I'm never wrong. I just said you're never right.

If you would be kind enough to share your opinions on everything with me, then I'd never be wrong.

[slycat]

This whole thing is crazy.

I really hope people aren't stereotyping all Muslims as terrorists. There are fucked up people in all religions. I'm sure many of the gay beatings come from Christians who think gays are wrong. Its easy to judge another race or religion that you are not apart or familiar with.

Showing hate or intolerance of any group is only going to create a further rift of misunderstanding which leads to more hate and violence.

[D1B]

This whole thing is crazy.

I really hope people aren't stereotyping all Muslims as terrorists. There are fucked up people in all religions. I'm sure many of the gay beatings come from Christians who think gays are wrong. Its easy to judge another race or religion that you are not apart or familiar with.

Showing hate or intolerance of any group is only going to create a further rift of misunderstanding which leads to more hate and violence.

If god were alive today, he'd be an atheist.

[catamount man]

fuck anybody that takes up arms against our people! they will all fucking die!