Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

[Skjellyfetti]

Trump Jr. is a complete idiot for releasing that email. But I'm sure investigators will take it.

When do Trump and co. begin eating each other alive?

The NYT had them and were releasing them anyway.

He was trying to get ahead of it. And release the emails for "transparency" - despite waiting a year... until they became public... all the while denying any such discussions ever took place.

I honestly never thought this would get this far. I thought there was probably some shady shit going on... but, documentation of it would never exist. I thought any hard evidence would have to come through financial records.



Never dreamed they would document it in fucking emails.

Live by the email, die by email.

[∞∞∞]

Trump Jr. is a complete idiot for releasing that email. But I'm sure investigators will take it.

When do Trump and co. begin eating each other alive?

The NYT had them and were releasing them anyway.

He was trying to get ahead of it. And release the emails for "transparency" - despite waiting a year... until they became public... all the while denying any such discussions ever took place.

I honestly never thought this would get this far. I thought there was probably some shady **** going on... but, documentation of it would never exist. I thought any hard evidence would have to come through financial records.



Never dreamed they would document it in **** emails.

Live by the email, die by email.

I'd bet if Jr. didn't release the screenshots, people would be calling the NYT article "fake news," even though the article went live mere minutes after Jr. released his screenshots (and the article was accurate).

From how seemingly clueless President Trump is about everything, I don't think he knew what his team was doing behind the scenes (but I'll let investigators figure that out for real). At this point though, it's clear his campaign was doing some shady stuff.

[GannonFan]

The NYT had them and were releasing them anyway.

He was trying to get ahead of it. And release the emails for "transparency" - despite waiting a year... until they became public... all the while denying any such discussions ever took place.

I honestly never thought this would get this far. I thought there was probably some shady **** going on... but, documentation of it would never exist. I thought any hard evidence would have to come through financial records.



Never dreamed they would document it in **** emails.

Live by the email, die by email.

How much do you want to bet if Jr. didn't release them, people would be calling the NYT article "fake news," even though their article went live mere minutes after Trump released his screenshots (and the article was accurate)?

I think that Trump was probably too clueless to know what his team was doing behind the scenes (but I'll let investigators figure that out for real), but at this point, it's clear his campaign was shady stuff.

It was shady stuff just with Flynn. We've known that for awhile. What will make the difference, though, is if they find stuff other than the wikileaks stuff (i.e. what did Junior actually get here). If the only damaging stuff they find that Trump's campaign got was the insider information on how Clinton and the DNC subverted the Democratic primary process to rig it for Clinton then it's a real big circle of crappy politics all the way around. That's the thing about Red Scares, they always find some actual wrong-doing (Palmer found actual spied, McCarthy did root out some shady folks, clearly Flynn and a few others will/have been caught here), but it's how far they go versus the actual hysteria. If they find that people did hack into voting booths and change votes, messed up voting rolls, or other such stuff, or if there's clear evidence of money changing hands, then it will balloon into skellie's highest hopes, but if it ends up being that they got dirt on the nefarious stuff the Clinton campaign and the DNC did then it won't go anywhere other than Flynn and company doing some time.

[∞∞∞]

How much do you want to bet if Jr. didn't release them, people would be calling the NYT article "fake news," even though their article went live mere minutes after Trump released his screenshots (and the article was accurate)?

I think that Trump was probably too clueless to know what his team was doing behind the scenes (but I'll let investigators figure that out for real), but at this point, it's clear his campaign was shady stuff.

It was shady stuff just with Flynn. We've known that for awhile. What will make the difference, though, is if they find stuff other than the wikileaks stuff (i.e. what did Junior actually get here). If the only damaging stuff they find that Trump's campaign got was the insider information on how Clinton and the DNC subverted the Democratic primary process to rig it for Clinton then it's a real big circle of crappy politics all the way around. That's the thing about Red Scares, they always find some actual wrong-doing (Palmer found actual spied, McCarthy did root out some shady folks, clearly Flynn and a few others will/have been caught here), but it's how far they go versus the actual hysteria. If they find that people did hack into voting booths and change votes, messed up voting rolls, or other such stuff, or if there's clear evidence of money changing hands, then it will balloon into skellie's highest hopes, but if it ends up being that they got dirt on the nefarious stuff the Clinton campaign and the DNC did then it won't go anywhere other than Flynn and company doing some time.

Common GF...you're a smart guy. I know for a fact that if Russia offered me information that is 100% true, I don't take it from them. I BARELY understand campaign laws, and even I'd think that seems illegal (especially when the person declares themselves a "Russian government lawyer").

There's winning, and then there's "winning."

[Ibanez]

It was shady stuff just with Flynn. We've known that for awhile. What will make the difference, though, is if they find stuff other than the wikileaks stuff (i.e. what did Junior actually get here). If the only damaging stuff they find that Trump's campaign got was the insider information on how Clinton and the DNC subverted the Democratic primary process to rig it for Clinton then it's a real big circle of crappy politics all the way around. That's the thing about Red Scares, they always find some actual wrong-doing (Palmer found actual spied, McCarthy did root out some shady folks, clearly Flynn and a few others will/have been caught here), but it's how far they go versus the actual hysteria. If they find that people did hack into voting booths and change votes, messed up voting rolls, or other such stuff, or if there's clear evidence of money changing hands, then it will balloon into skellie's highest hopes, but if it ends up being that they got dirt on the nefarious stuff the Clinton campaign and the DNC did then it won't go anywhere other than Flynn and company doing some time.

Common GF...you're a smart guy. I know for a fact that if Russia offered me information that is 100% true, I don't take it from them. I BARELY understand campaign laws, and even I'd think that seems illegal (especially when the person declares themselves a "Russian government lawyer").

There's winning, and then there's "winning."

You're saying that from the outside. If someone offered you information on your opponent, you'd want to see it. You'd distance yourself from it, perhaps, but you'd want your campaign to learn if it's true.

[∞∞∞]

Common GF...you're a smart guy. I know for a fact that if Russia offered me information that is 100% true, I don't take it from them. I BARELY understand campaign laws, and even I'd think that seems illegal (especially when the person declares themselves a "Russian government lawyer").

There's winning, and then there's "winning."

You're saying that from the outside. If someone offered you information on your opponent, you'd want to see it. You'd distance yourself from it, perhaps, but you'd want your campaign to learn if it's true.

If a Russian government lawyer said: "I have dirt on your opponent," would you take it?

I do say it from the outside, but I know myself well enough that I wouldn't take that offer.

[Skjellyfetti]

You're saying that from the outside. If someone offered you information on your opponent, you'd want to see it. You'd distance yourself from it, perhaps, but you'd want your campaign to learn if it's true.

If you're told the information is from the highest levels of the Kremlin... you better fucking call the FBI... or you'll be hiring some very expensive lawyers for the next few years.


I kinda feel bad for Kushner and Don Jr. They were neophytes and didn't know what all this meant. In business, this wouldn't be a problem.

Manafort should have fucking known better. He's worked on Presidential campaigns for 40+ years.

[houndawg]

You're saying that from the outside. If someone offered you information on your opponent, you'd want to see it. You'd distance yourself from it, perhaps, but you'd want your campaign to learn if it's true.

If a Russian government lawyer said: "I have dirt on your opponent," would you take it?

I do say it from the outside, but I know myself well enough that I wouldn't take that offer.

And your next call is to the FBI...

[Ibanez]

You're saying that from the outside. If someone offered you information on your opponent, you'd want to see it. You'd distance yourself from it, perhaps, but you'd want your campaign to learn if it's true.

If you're told the information is from the highest levels of the Kremlin... you better fucking call the FBI... or you'll be hiring some very expensive lawyers for the next few years.


I kinda feel bad for Kushner and Don Jr. They were neophytes and didn't know what all this meant. In business, this wouldn't be a problem.

Manafort should have fucking known better. He's worked on Presidential campaigns for 40+ years.

I'm just saying....at that level those people play dirty. Clinton would've taken the information. Manafort should've known better, for sure.

[houndawg]

If you're told the information is from the highest levels of the Kremlin... you better **** call the FBI... or you'll be hiring some very expensive lawyers for the next few years.


I kinda feel bad for Kushner and Don Jr. They were neophytes and didn't know what all this meant. In business, this wouldn't be a problem.

Manafort should have **** known better. He's worked on Presidential campaigns for 40+ years.

I'm just saying....at that level those people play dirty. Clinton would've taken the information. Manafort should've known better, for sure.

Clinton would have smelled the trap.

[CAA Flagship]

If you're told the information is from the highest levels of the Kremlin... you better fucking call the FBI... or you'll be hiring some very expensive lawyers for the next few years.


I kinda feel bad for Kushner and Don Jr. They were neophytes and didn't know what all this meant. In business, this wouldn't be a problem.

Manafort should have fucking known better. He's worked on Presidential campaigns for 40+ years.

I'm just saying....at that level those people play dirty. Clinton would've taken the information. Manafort should've known better, for sure.

I think most people would take the information. The "way" it is taken would vary. And how/if it is used would vary.

[Skjellyfetti]

Kushner, Don Jr., and Manafort better be having some pow wows to get their story straight about this meeting before Mueller comes knocking.



Lordy, I hope there are tapes.

[Ibanez]

Kushner, Don Jr., and Manafort better be having some pow wows to get their story straight about this meeting before Mueller comes knocking.



Lordy, I hope there are tapes.

They'll get a slap on the wrist. Or a tongue lashing.

[CID1990]

There's three suckers in play on this story:

Donald Jr

The NYT

Jelly

BTW Jelly- since you're the one bringing up goalposts .... and since you like to stand on semantics... maybe you'd like to go ahead and give us your own definition of "collusion", since accepting meetings and phone calls can be technically considered to be collusion?

Nothing has changed in any of this - unless accepting "dossiers" of oppo research from foreign entities is now illegal... or being willing to

I did some looking since this story does seem sensational - and come to find out it is already falling apart under sunlight

[Skjellyfetti]

BTW Jelly- since you're the one bringing up goalposts .... and since you like to stand on semantics... maybe you'd like to go ahead and give us your own definition of "collusion", since accepting meetings and phone calls can be technically considered to be collusion?

How about the language Rosenstein used to define Mueller's primary investigation?

any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... ussia.html


This Don Jr., Kushner, Manafort meeting seems slightly * relevant to Mueller's investigation. No?

Still standing by this?

Here's something you can mark down:

Mueller isn't looking at the Trump campaign for collusion. He's already ruled it out.

*

Spoiler: show

sarcasm

[CID1990]

BTW Jelly- since you're the one bringing up goalposts .... and since you like to stand on semantics... maybe you'd like to go ahead and give us your own definition of "collusion", since accepting meetings and phone calls can be technically considered to be collusion?

How about the language Rosenstein used to define Mueller's primary investigation?

any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... ussia.html

Still standing by this?

Here's something you can mark down:

Mueller isn't looking at the Trump campaign for collusion. He's already ruled it out.

OF COURSE I still stand by it, and that will be what the final findings will show.

We'll see a couple people in trouble for not registering as foreign agents (maybe)... and maybe we'll see some people losing their clearances for failure to report contacts on their SF-86 (which is what should happen but doubtful that it will)

Then we'll see some REAL goalpost moving.

Mueller is making a show of it, and he's going to look under all the stones, but there is an absence of evidence that precludes an investigation into COLLUSION... I.e.: coordinating with the Russian government to affect the election. And collusion means the Trump campaign would have advised the Russians on how and when to time their tampering. That's the only thing here that would rise to the level of being actionable.

Even if the Trumpers accepted oppo research or even hacked materials from the Russians (and there is no evidence that they did), there would be no reason to direct Russian activities. The Trump campaign could have leaked it themselves. And if acceptance of those materials was collusion, then we're going to need a MUCH broader investigation- into a lot of people on both sides.

Sort of like the golden shower "dossier" that was commissioned by who?

[Skjellyfetti]

It's clear the next step in the spin can only be...

Well, IT'S NOT TREASON!! Who cares??

[UNI88]

You're saying that from the outside. If someone offered you information on your opponent, you'd want to see it. You'd distance yourself from it, perhaps, but you'd want your campaign to learn if it's true.

If a Russian government lawyer said: "I have dirt on your opponent," would you take it?

I do say it from the outside, but I know myself well enough that I wouldn't take that offer.

You're obviously too scrupulous to work for the Trump Campaign ..................... or the Clinton Campaign.

[Pwns]

JONATHAN TURLEY - professor of law at the George Washington University Law School.:

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video ... eason.html

It is like we have this giant Rorschach test and people see whatever they want to.

The criminal code has defined elements to it. You just don’t find these ambiguous crimes. Some people have said this could be treason. For the love of God, treason is defined in the Constitution. This is not treason. Other people have said this could be a Logan Act violation. Well, Logan Act has been used once in 200 years and is facially unconstitutional. One said, well, if you take things of tangible value under the campaign laws and treat information like that, then maybe you have a campaign contribution violation. Well, yeah, but we haven’t seen that done. You could also treat it like a panda and say it’s an endangered species violation, but courts haven’t done that. So, I think that people need to take a breath...

What I've said to a lot of my friends who do legal analysis is, is this really the world you want to live in, where we broaden the definition of crimes so far that most any conversation could be a criminal act?

That’s a very dangerous world to live in, but more importantly, if information is now a thing of tangible value under federal campaign laws, then the Clinton campaign could be charged with the same type of offense, and a wide variety of other campaigns could be charged.

I mean, there’s a point at which you have to show some element of maturity and stand back and tell people — look, this is worthy we have an investigation. But you shouldn’t suggest that this is a clear evidence of a criminal act...

Now, what is not routine is to have high-ranking people like this meet with someone without knowing the nature of the meeting. That was not a smart move to make, but it doesn’t make it a crime. And so, people have got to be very careful. If this is a crime, then a wide array of contacts that routinely occur between politicians and foreign nationals would also be a crime, and then you raise serious free speech and association concerns under the Constitution.

[GannonFan]

It was shady stuff just with Flynn. We've known that for awhile. What will make the difference, though, is if they find stuff other than the wikileaks stuff (i.e. what did Junior actually get here). If the only damaging stuff they find that Trump's campaign got was the insider information on how Clinton and the DNC subverted the Democratic primary process to rig it for Clinton then it's a real big circle of crappy politics all the way around. That's the thing about Red Scares, they always find some actual wrong-doing (Palmer found actual spied, McCarthy did root out some shady folks, clearly Flynn and a few others will/have been caught here), but it's how far they go versus the actual hysteria. If they find that people did hack into voting booths and change votes, messed up voting rolls, or other such stuff, or if there's clear evidence of money changing hands, then it will balloon into skellie's highest hopes, but if it ends up being that they got dirt on the nefarious stuff the Clinton campaign and the DNC did then it won't go anywhere other than Flynn and company doing some time.

Common GF...you're a smart guy. I know for a fact that if Russia offered me information that is 100% true, I don't take it from them. I BARELY understand campaign laws, and even I'd think that seems illegal (especially when the person declares themselves a "Russian government lawyer").

There's winning, and then there's "winning."

Oh, I think there's plenty of illegal stuff that went on, and if not illegal then pretty close to it. And there's going to be some scalps taken in this and some people will do time (or will be pardoned).

Especially the further you move away from the idea of impacting the election. Because when it's "did the Trump campaign, with the Russians, collude or coordinate to change the outcome of the election" that's not going to be very provable. The problem there is that unless votes were changed or rigged or machines were tampered with, the voters voted. Clinton won the popular vote, and Trump won the vote that matters when electing Presidents. That happened because of things both candidates did or didn't do during the election. People (especially Sanders supporters on the left) were saying that Clinton and the DNC rigged the Democratic primaries long before WikiLeaks confirmed they did. ABCNews ran a front page story in October about the extent of the pay-to-play system Clinton ran while Sec of State and it didn't move the needle at all because the electorate already knew all that, or strongly suspected it. Trump has been a lying buffoon for several years now, and probably does a lot of shady (read illegal) business dealings, and even with that Access Hollywood video people still voted for him in large numbers. The funny/sad thing is, Russia didn't have to do anything to make this election the train-wreck that it was, we already took care of that for them.

So while this investigation will surely result in the successful prosecution of several people (start with Flynn and work from there) it'll be for violations of campaign finance laws (not treason) or inaccuracies/perjury on government forms. The general public won't be moved by this - the Clinton voters already assume that the election was stolen from them and will see this as validation of the #resistance and the Trump voters already assume that the other side considers them irredeemable deplorables and that the investigation is just more proof that their election victory is being taken away outside of the election. In 2020 we'll have another election that may or may not include Trump (he is clearly old) and both parties (I'd say the Dems a little worse than the GOP because of the lack of governorships and other political offices that feed this) have shown they don't have a lot of viable up and coming candidates to fill the void and be anything other than torchbearers for the status quo. Trumpkins will be still be pissed that the left considers them less than human and the left will still be incensed that Trumpkins still exist. And the beat goes on.

[GannonFan]

It is like we have this giant Rorschach test and people see whatever they want to.

That's a great, and pithy summation to all of this.

[Silenoz]

It's because no-one cares about anything anymore other than being on the right/winning side of the political divide

Nothing that actually happens matters anymore

[Skjellyfetti]

Well, just to be clear - I'm not saying anyone is guilty of anything at this point.

I'm just pushing back against people that think this is:

- a "nothingburger"
- Mueller ended his investigation of collusion/coordination at least a month ago...
- it's a hoax or spanos-esque
- etc.

I think it's a legitimate investigation worth pursuing. I said a while back that I didn't think collusion would be proven. I also never thought I'd see Trump Jr. tweeting out email evidence... but, I don't know if that is enough to bring charges. It's for Mueller to decide.

I think this investigation still has a LONG way to go. Mueller ain't close to wrapping it up. He's not ready to close it and he's not ready to indict anyone. This also isn't the last bombshell to drop. Long way to go.

[Pwns]

Well, just to be clear - I'm not saying anyone is guilty of anything at this point.

I'm just pushing back against people that think this is:

- a "nothingburger"
- Mueller ended his investigation of collusion/coordination at least a month ago...
- it's a hoax or spanos-esque
- etc.

I think it's a legitimate investigation worth pursuing. I said a while back that I didn't think collusion would be proven. I also never thought I'd see Trump Jr. tweeting out email evidence... but, I don't know if that is enough to bring charges. It's for Mueller to decide.

I think this investigation still has a LONG way to go. Mueller ain't close to wrapping it up. He's not ready to close it and he's not ready to indict anyone. This also isn't the last bombshell to drop. Long way to go.

It was apparently a nothingburger for Donks to work with foreign intelligence to get rumors about Trump getting spanked by a Russian prostitute, but speaking with a Russian lawyer? zOMG treason!!!!1.

[Skjellyfetti]

It was apparently a nothingburger for Donks to work with foreign intelligence to get rumors about Trump getting spanked by a Russian prostitute, but speaking with a Russian lawyer? zOMG treason!!!!1.

Well, this seems to be a popular topic today.

Steele wasn't foreign intelligence. He was ex-MI6 and running a private consulting firm.

FusionGPS was originally hired by a Republican PAC (unnamed) during the primaries and FusionGPS hired Steele. It was then passed off to a Democratic PAC (unnamed) for the general. It was then passed on to the FBI. It also has a lot more than the pee tape rumors. Alot that has since been verified. Agalarov, who arranged this meeting, is featured in the dossier.

Unfortunately, the law looks very differently at supposedly independent PACs vs the campaigns themselves. I'd definitely support cracking down on them and holding them to similar standards as far as financing, federal criminal law, etc.

And, look, I had no problem bashing Hillary over the email scandal. I refused to vote for her in the primary and I refused to vote for her in the general. I didn't really understand the reasoning for not charging her for mishandling classified material. If her or her campaign was coordinating with foreign agents - let's start a thread on that. Sessions can open up an investigation today - and, I'd hope he'd do it if there was evidence. Why wouldn't he? 'BUT, CLINTON!" Doesn't mean anything to me. I'd have no problem with Sessions reopening the email investigation, opening an investigation into Lynch, etc. If there's evidence - PURSUE IT.

And, I definitely never said any of this is treason, and I wish the politicians and/or talking heads that keep saying that sort of thing would knock it off. There isn't any scenario I could imagine or information to drop that would make it treasonous.