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You gotta be fucking kidding me...

...Navy seals capture a top Al Quaida terrorist suspected of masterminding the ambush of 4 Americans in 2004, and in the process of his CAPTURE (NOT KILL), punch him in the stomach, and get charged with abusing a prisoner?



...and are now being court-martialed by the U.S. Central Command under the authority of Maj. Gen. Charles T. Cleveland.



Cleveland needs a boot put up his ass...

...and another into the skull of the terrorist.


Sign the petition calling for Commander Gen. Petraeus to dismiss the charges and restore them to duty.

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=34775

T-Man,

They were up for NJP and they requested trial by court martial. The military did not consider this to be serious enough to warrant a general CM, which is why they were originally going to handle it via NJP. I agree with the SEALS in this case, in that they are taking their case to the court of public opinion by requesting courts martial, but the CO's hands are tied. They HAVE to be tried in this way because of their own request.

I tend to agree that this should be handled via NJP. You don't jack up people after they are subdued. Send them to mast, confined them to quarters for a month, dock a month's pay, and move on. Definitely not a C-M offense, but again, they requested it.

Reminds me of Abu Ghraib.

Cap'n Cat wrote:Reminds me of Abu Ghraib.

Exaggerate much???


SMFH

Navy SEALS are pussies. Suprised the dude didn't kick their asses for the gut punch.

I'd take a band of islamic militant 12 year olds with rocks and molotov coctails over a group of SEALS anyday.

Cap'n Cat wrote:Reminds me of Abu Ghraib.

Mrs. Bluball's nephew was at Abu Gharib... perhaps next time you're down we'll have him over. Great stories!!!

D1B wrote:Navy SEALS are pussies. Suprised the dude didn't kick their asses for the gut punch.

I'd take a band of islamic militant 12 year olds with rocks and molotov coctails over a group of SEALS anyday.

You left out the Heat cheerleaders...

Done.

CID1990 wrote:T-Man,

They were up for NJP and they requested trial by court martial. The military did not consider this to be serious enough to warrant a general CM, which is why they were originally going to handle it via NJP. I agree with the SEALS in this case, in that they are taking their case to the court of public opinion by requesting courts martial, but the CO's hands are tied. They HAVE to be tried in this way because of their own request.

I tend to agree that this should be handled via NJP. You don't jack up people after they are subdued. Send them to mast, confined them to quarters for a month, dock a month's pay, and move on. Definitely not a C-M offense, but again, they requested it.

But just as with Lt. Col West's court martial...

...Odierno recd. an ass-whupping until he agreed to dismiss and allow for discharge.

...same will happen to Gen. Cleveland.

I realize this is a result of a thoughtless agreement between the new Iraq parliament and U.N., however, any time we allow our troops to be subject to a foreign sovereign nation's laws, while we are in the process or a post-war withdrawal, we should expect this form of shenanigans.

This speaks as much against the integrity of the Iraq justice system, as it does for our myopic JAG. The proper solution would have been for the Iraq police to have read the terrorist's complaint, then reply, "At least they didn't behead you, like this...", then saw off his head with a dull sword.

Justice served.

CID1990 wrote:T-Man,

They were up for NJP and they requested trial by court martial. The military did not consider this to be serious enough to warrant a general CM, which is why they were originally going to handle it via NJP. I agree with the SEALS in this case, in that they are taking their case to the court of public opinion by requesting courts martial, but the CO's hands are tied. They HAVE to be tried in this way because of their own request.

I tend to agree that this should be handled via NJP. You don't jack up people after they are subdued. Send them to mast, confined them to quarters for a month, dock a month's pay, and move on. Definitely not a C-M offense, but again, they requested it.

They elected courts-martial, as is their right, probably to avoid an unjust NJP result.

I would like to know more details about the chain of events leading up to the original Article 15 and who initiated the charges so that we could have a better idea of whether the charges were initiated to maintain the integrity of the chain of command, or to curry favor with political leadership.

native wrote:

CID1990 wrote:T-Man,

They were up for NJP and they requested trial by court martial. The military did not consider this to be serious enough to warrant a general CM, which is why they were originally going to handle it via NJP. I agree with the SEALS in this case, in that they are taking their case to the court of public opinion by requesting courts martial, but the CO's hands are tied. They HAVE to be tried in this way because of their own request.

I tend to agree that this should be handled via NJP. You don't jack up people after they are subdued. Send them to mast, confined them to quarters for a month, dock a month's pay, and move on. Definitely not a C-M offense, but again, they requested it.

They elected courts-martial, as is their right, probably to avoid an unjust NJP result.

I would like to know more details about the chain of events leading up to the original Article 15 and who initiated the charges so that we could have a better idea of whether the charges were initiated to maintain the integrity of the chain of command, or to curry favor with political leadership.

Agreed, but as I recall, the worst that can happen to you at NJP is something like a reduction in pay for a short period and confinement to quarters. Plus an a$$ chewing. Quite frankly, I'd like to kick terrorists in the balls too, but as I always told my patrolmen... once the cuffs are on, the fight's over. If they wanted to whack the guy then they should have just killed him instead of taking him prisoner. We're better than those fvckers.

CID1990 wrote:

native wrote:
They elected courts-martial, as is their right, probably to avoid an unjust NJP result.

I would like to know more details about the chain of events leading up to the original Article 15 and who initiated the charges so that we could have a better idea of whether the charges were initiated to maintain the integrity of the chain of command, or to curry favor with political leadership.

Agreed, but as I recall, the worst that can happen to you at NJP is something like a reduction in pay for a short period and confinement to quarters. Plus an a$$ chewing. Quite frankly, I'd like to kick terrorists in the balls too, but as I always told my patrolmen... once the cuffs are on, the fight's over. If they wanted to whack the guy then they should have just killed him instead of taking him prisoner. We're better than those fvckers.

Points well taken, but we do not know the facts. Discovery will be far more vigorous in courts-martial proceedings versus NJP. It is a double-edged sword for the SEALS.

Also, consider the fact that the punishments can be much harsher depending on the rank of the commanding officer convening the Article 15 (NJP). Field Grade officers (O-4 to O-6) may impose:
-Restriction for not more than 60 days
-Extra duties for not more than 45 days
-Restriction with extra duties for not more than 45 days
-Correctional Custody for not more than 30 days (only if accused is in the grades E-3 and below)
-Forfeiture of one half of base pay for two months
-Reduction by one grade if E-6 (USMC E-5) and above; or reduction to E-1 if E-5 (USMC E-4) and below.
-Confinement on diminished rations or bread and water for not more than 3 days (USN/USMC E-3 and below only, and only when embarked on a vessel)
-Admonition or reprimand, either written or verbal.

Flag and general officers can presumably impose even harsher punishments.

All this said, the SEALS' professional pride is probably more important to them than the other potential punishments combined.

The fact remains that a courts-martial is the best possible venue if you are innocent but the worst if you are guilty.

I don't shed a tear for the guy that got a busted lip.

But, the military has rules. If they're broken there should be consequences.

Skjellyfetti wrote:I don't shed a tear for the guy that got a busted lip.

But, the military has rules. If they're broken there should be consequences.

There are rules and there are rules. Have you ever refereed a team sport at any level?

native wrote:

Skjellyfetti wrote:I don't shed a tear for the guy that got a busted lip.

But, the military has rules. If they're broken there should be consequences.

There are rules and there are rules. Have you ever refereed a team sport at any level?

This post doesn't make a lot of sense. No, I haven't been a referee. What's your point?

Anytime a US soldier beats the fu*k out of a prisoner its A OK with me.


If they dont like getting their ass beat they should stop fu*king with us.

Until then carry on.

Skjellyfetti wrote:

native wrote:
There are rules and there are rules. Have you ever refereed a team sport at any level?

This post doesn't make a lot of sense. No, I haven't been a referee. What's your point?

Geez, I did not imagine this would be a difficult concept on a sports board! NOBODY - not players, coaches or fans - wants the referee to destroy the primary objectives of the game by calling every possible infraction!

The point is that a good referee does not call every possible ticky tacky foul, but instead manages the game. For example, by the book holding could be called on virtually every offensive lineman on virtually every play, but it would be ridiculous and counterproductive to do so.

This is not to equate the game environment of team sports to the life and death environment of combat, but merely to illustrate the concept that even the most earnest, sincere and meticulous manager must use judgment to manage the environment and the team rather than trying to uphold the letter of every single rule and regulation in every single instance. All the rules in the world cannot make up for a lack of judgment. Nobody can or will perform for a martinet.

However, the referee allegory also pertains on another level. The best referees are those who have played the sport. Very few non-athletes make satisfactory referees.

The same holds true for inexperienced politicians and snotty nosed staffers and/or pundits who have never served in combat trying to pontificate on standards for situations in which they themselves not only have never performed under pressure, but could not perform even to minimal standards.

Set the highest standards, yes! But they must be achievable and enforceable standards which support the mission. These same concepts apply to every supervisorial position and situation.

You ladies can all dry your eyes, the SEALS won't be getting anything worse than a company grade Article 15 and it will be given with a wink and maybe a phony ass chewing for the benefit of the press.

ALPHAGRIZ1 wrote:Anytime a US soldier beats the fu*k out of a prisoner its A OK with me.


If they dont like getting their ass beat they should stop fu*king with us.

Until then carry on.

native wrote:

CID1990 wrote:
Agreed, but as I recall, the worst that can happen to you at NJP is something like a reduction in pay for a short period and confinement to quarters. Plus an a$$ chewing. Quite frankly, I'd like to kick terrorists in the balls too, but as I always told my patrolmen... once the cuffs are on, the fight's over. If they wanted to whack the guy then they should have just killed him instead of taking him prisoner. We're better than those fvckers.

Points well taken, but we do not know the facts. Discovery will be far more vigorous in courts-martial proceedings versus NJP. It is a double-edged sword for the SEALS.

Also, consider the fact that the punishments can be much harsher depending on the rank of the commanding officer convening the Article 15 (NJP). Field Grade officers (O-4 to O-6) may impose:
-Restriction for not more than 60 days
-Extra duties for not more than 45 days
-Restriction with extra duties for not more than 45 days
-Correctional Custody for not more than 30 days (only if accused is in the grades E-3 and below)
-Forfeiture of one half of base pay for two months
-Reduction by one grade if E-6 (USMC E-5) and above; or reduction to E-1 if E-5 (USMC E-4) and below.
-Confinement on diminished rations or bread and water for not more than 3 days (USN/USMC E-3 and below only, and only when embarked on a vessel)
-Admonition or reprimand, either written or verbal.

Flag and general officers can presumably impose even harsher punishments.

All this said, the SEALS' professional pride is probably more important to them than the other potential punishments combined.

The fact remains that a courts-martial is the best possible venue if you are innocent but the worst if you are guilty.

Yeah thanks for the memory refresher. It has been a long time. Like you said, I don't think most enlisted SEALS give a sh!t about NJP, but I do believe they rightly requested GCM as a matter of principle. If they are right, then the officer bringing charges should have known that already. Bringing this out in GCM is not only the right way to go (especially if they are innocent) but also a way of showing the charging officer that he is a POS.

ALPHAGRIZ1 wrote:Anytime a US soldier beats the fu*k out of a prisoner its A OK with me.


If they dont like getting their ass beat they should stop fu*king with us.

Until then carry on.

reps

D1B wrote:

ALPHAGRIZ1 wrote:Anytime a US soldier beats the fu*k out of a prisoner its A OK with me.


If they dont like getting their ass beat they should stop fu*king with us.

Until then carry on.

reps

Alfie is a funny sometimes.

CID1990 wrote:... I don't think most enlisted SEALS give a sh!t about NJP, but I do believe they rightly requested GCM as a matter of principle. If they are right, then the officer bringing charges should have known that already. Bringing this out in GCM is not only the right way to go (especially if they are innocent) but also a way of showing the charging officer that he is a POS.

Agreed. The only question in my mind is whether the CM authority brought charges because of the SEALS specifically disobeyed his standing orders or whether the charges were issued only after political pressure.