Catholics aint fucking around....

[D1B]

Brilliant but devious commercial to lure those who left the church to come back.



Hey, Joe, I thought the church was retaining members at an amazing rate. Sure looks like a slick Madison Avenue response to a growing problem in the church.

[travelinman67]

Bored, huh?

[clenz]

Found a picture of D making this post. Getting pretty desperate with this fishing attempt

[Chizzang]

You have to admit thats a pretty slick ad...

[JMU DJ]

You have to admit thats a pretty slick ad...

Slick in the sense of being presumptuous? Founded the college system? Developed the scientific method? "We Are?" What is this, a promo for Marshall?

[kalm]

Reverend Carlin had it right. It's time for a new image:

http://images.google.com/url?source=img ... y.jpg&usg=

[Chizzang]

You have to admit thats a pretty slick ad...

Slick in the sense of being presumptuous? Founded the college system? Developed the scientific method? "We Are?" What is this, a promo for Marshall?

Marshall

The singular job of an advertisement is to SELL

[kalm]

Slick in the sense of being presumptuous? Founded the college system? Developed the scientific method? "We Are?" What is this, a promo for Marshall?

Marshall

The singular job of an advertisement is to SELL

That's funnyu, I thought of Marshall too.

[D1B]

Found a picture of D making this post. Getting pretty desperate with this fishing attempt

It's a legit topic. Unprecedented marketing move by the largest and oldest christian church in the world. That certainly alone is worthy of discussion. Additionally, Joe and I have went back and forth on positions regarding church numbers, specifically defections and third world recruits.

Religion is an acceptable political topic and, if you have not noticed, I've stayed out of religious threads of late.

So fuck you.

[CitadelGrad]

Slick ad but what's this bullshit about developing the scientific method? Tell that to all the scientists they excommunicated, tortured and killed.

These fuckers have no hope of persuading me to "come home".

[Chizzang]

Slick ad but what's this bullshit about developing the scientific method? Tell that to all the scientists they excommunicated, tortured and killed.

These fuckers have no hope of persuading me to "come home".

No they just put Galileo under "house arrest"
He was in a lot of trouble for defending Copernican theory...
A decree was issued that placed on the Index of Prohibited Books all works in which the motion of the Earth and sun were irreconcilable with the Bible...

The pope also openly made "corrections" to Copernicus's work "De Revolutionibus"...

So much for the search for truth his work was banned by the church for almost 200 years... and he was a devout believer in GOD..!!! in fact he felt that it was mans duty to discover the truth - in all it's forms - and that would reveal the mind of God...

but as we all know organized Religion is about power first and God second, and truth third...

[JoltinJoe]

Slick ad but what's this bullshit about developing the scientific method? Tell that to all the scientists they excommunicated, tortured and killed.

These **** have no hope of persuading me to "come home".

Name one scientist who was "tortuted" or "killed." (Jeff, feel free to chime in the one "scientist" you claim, who wasn't a scientist at all, and then the discussion is over).

Myth No. 10,112 about the Catholic Church: that it tortured or executed scientists.

[JMU DJ]

Slick ad but what's this bullshit about developing the scientific method? Tell that to all the scientists they excommunicated, tortured and killed.

These **** have no hope of persuading me to "come home".

Name one scientist who was "tortuted" or "killed." (Jeff, feel free to chime in the one "scientist" you claim, who wasn't a scientist at all, and then the discussion is over).

Myth No. 10,112 about the Catholic Church: that it tortured or executed scientists.

1. Giordano Bruno

[D1B]

Slick ad but what's this bullshit about developing the scientific method? Tell that to all the scientists they excommunicated, tortured and killed.

These **** have no hope of persuading me to "come home".

Name one scientist who was "tortuted" or "killed." (Jeff, feel free to chime in the one "scientist" you claim, who wasn't a scientist at all, and then the discussion is over).

Myth No. 10,112 about the Catholic Church: that it tortured or executed scientists.

Joe, first you're setting up a strawman here. It is widely known the church was hard on dissent, especially scientists, astronomers, cosmologists, artists and writers. As the worldwide power in the Western world for almost a couple thousand years, it's not hard to conceive that millions of men and women of science or letters were harrassed or tortured in some way or flat out killed by your church.

You need to rephrase your question to "How many still world famous scientists did the catholic church kill or torture - then you may have a point. To use this weak argument to deny the fact that countless others, perhaps those who could have cured the plague or the next Shakespeare or Voltaire, were harrassed, murdered, tortured or at the very least discouraged from furthering their work is wrong - but you know this.

The catholic church, like the nazis, also burned a shitload of books too. As far as I'm concerned, you've killed someone if you burn their life's work. Who knows the treasures that were lost due to the church and its thirst for power. To be fair here, the Jesuits and other monk groups saved science and letters during the dark ages. But here again, these were fringe groups who understood the values of Jesus as primary, not power and money.

The assembling the bible is another interesting claim. It's true, but what does this mean? There had to be tremendous power derived from that. I think most of us are well aware of countless gospels left out for one reason or another. The catholics fought hard for hundreds of years for the bible not to be translated into the language of the people. In fact, they murdered you if you translated it or were involved in the distribution of translated copies - back in the day. There's an excellent documentary on this on PBS.

Today, speakers of English take for granted many phrases from the King James Bible -- from "let there be light" to the word "scapegoat" -- that were the work of an intrepid 16th-century translator who met not with acclaim but with years of exile, and eventually lost his life.

But this translator, William Tyndale -- who was burned at the stake on October 6, 1536 -- was no lone renegade. Rather, he was a pivotal transitional figure, his work a step toward bringing direct experience of the Bible to a reading public.

The film BATTLE FOR THE BIBLE explores the lives and lasting influence of three major figures in the translation and propagation of the English Bible: the 14th-century theologian, politician, and reformer John Wycliffe; Tyndale; and Thomas Cranmer, the Archbishop of Canterbury under Henry VIII and advisor to the king through the period that saw the split with Rome and the creation of the Anglican Church.

The translation of the Bible into the vulgar -- the language of everyday people -- was a key element in the series of reforms within the Catholic Church that eventually resulted in what we know as the Protestant Reformation.

In the 14th century, the Roman Catholic Church was Western Europe's undisputed religious authority; and its central rituals -- the Mass and Communion -- the only legitimate pathway to salvation. The pope and the clergy held enormous power, and secular authorities looked to the Church for legitimation. Key to the Church's power was the fact that its rituals were conducted in Latin, a language inaccessible to the uneducated faithful. The public was completely dependent on the priesthood for access to salvation -- only through mysterious rituals conducted in an unfamiliar tongue could they conduct their spiritual lives.

John Wycliffe, born around 1320, was a prominent theologian at Oxford University and a leading ecclesiastical politician in the dark period of English history following the decimation of Europe's population by the Black Plague. He became convinced through his own scholarship that Scripture itself, rather than the Mass, should be seen as the source of Christian authority.

Wycliffe's notion that the Bible should be translated into the common tongue for the edification of all believers was a radical innovation, and one that spawned a movement. Working outside of the Church, translators eventually produced perhaps hundreds of so-called "Wycliffe Bibles," translated and hand-copied from the Latin. It is not clear that Wycliffe himself produced any translations into English, so they are more properly known as "Wycliffite" Bibles.

With or without Wycliffe's active involvement, the English Bible became part of an underground movement that became known as Lollardy and continued to spread after Wycliffe's death in 1384. It worried Church authorities enough that by 1407 the English translation was denounced as unauthorized, and translating or using translated Bibles was defined as heresy -- a crime for which the punishment was death by burning. In 1415 Wycliffe himself was denounced, posthumously, as a heretic. His body was exhumed and burned in 1428. Wycliffite Bibles, even after the ban, were produced in great numbers, and the 250 or so that now remain are the largest surviving body of medieval English texts. But the time was not yet right for the Bible to exist publicly in the common tongue.

See PBS for more.

[JoltinJoe]

Name one scientist who was "tortuted" or "killed." (Jeff, feel free to chime in the one "scientist" you claim, who wasn't a scientist at all, and then the discussion is over).

Myth No. 10,112 about the Catholic Church: that it tortured or executed scientists.

1. Giordano Bruno

Not really a scientist, and he wasn't executed for any of his "scientific" musings, but he's the one name that, in desperation, gets thrown out when this claim of "executing scientists" is made.

If you want to say Bruno was a scientist, go ahead. He didn't engage in any scientific study, hypothesis, or use of the scientic method. But whatever.

Now name another.

[JoltinJoe]

Name one scientist who was "tortuted" or "killed." (Jeff, feel free to chime in the one "scientist" you claim, who wasn't a scientist at all, and then the discussion is over).

Myth No. 10,112 about the Catholic Church: that it tortured or executed scientists.

Joe, first you're setting up a strawman here. It is widely known the church was hard on dissent, especially scientists, astronomers, cosmologists, artists and writers. As the worldwide power in the Western world for almost a couple thousand years, it's not hard to conceive that millions of men and women of science or letters were harrassed or tortured in some way or flat out killed by your church.

You need to rephrase your question to "How many still world famous scientists did the catholic church kill or torture - then you may have a point. To use this weak argument to deny the fact that countless others, perhaps those who could have cured the plague or the next Shakespeare or Voltaire, were harrassed, murdered, tortured or at the very least discouraged from furthering their work is wrong - but you know this.

The catholic church, like the nazis, also burned a shitload of books too. As far as I'm concerned, you've killed someone if you burn their life's work. Who knows the treasures that were lost due to the church and its thirst for power. To be fair here, the Jesuits and other monk groups saved science and letters during the dark ages. But here again, these were fringe groups who understood the values of Jesus as primary, not power and money.

The assembling the bible is another interesting claim. It's true, but what does this mean? There had to be tremendous power derived from that. I think most of us are well aware of countless gospels left out for one reason or another. The catholics fought hard for hundreds of years for the bible not to be translated into the language of the people. In fact, they murdered you if you translated it or were involved in the distribution of translated copies - back in the day. There's an excellent documentary on this on PBS.

Today, speakers of English take for granted many phrases from the King James Bible -- from "let there be light" to the word "scapegoat" -- that were the work of an intrepid 16th-century translator who met not with acclaim but with years of exile, and eventually lost his life.

But this translator, William Tyndale -- who was burned at the stake on October 6, 1536 -- was no lone renegade. Rather, he was a pivotal transitional figure, his work a step toward bringing direct experience of the Bible to a reading public.

The film BATTLE FOR THE BIBLE explores the lives and lasting influence of three major figures in the translation and propagation of the English Bible: the 14th-century theologian, politician, and reformer John Wycliffe; Tyndale; and Thomas Cranmer, the Archbishop of Canterbury under Henry VIII and advisor to the king through the period that saw the split with Rome and the creation of the Anglican Church.

The translation of the Bible into the vulgar -- the language of everyday people -- was a key element in the series of reforms within the Catholic Church that eventually resulted in what we know as the Protestant Reformation.

In the 14th century, the Roman Catholic Church was Western Europe's undisputed religious authority; and its central rituals -- the Mass and Communion -- the only legitimate pathway to salvation. The pope and the clergy held enormous power, and secular authorities looked to the Church for legitimation. Key to the Church's power was the fact that its rituals were conducted in Latin, a language inaccessible to the uneducated faithful. The public was completely dependent on the priesthood for access to salvation -- only through mysterious rituals conducted in an unfamiliar tongue could they conduct their spiritual lives.

John Wycliffe, born around 1320, was a prominent theologian at Oxford University and a leading ecclesiastical politician in the dark period of English history following the decimation of Europe's population by the Black Plague. He became convinced through his own scholarship that Scripture itself, rather than the Mass, should be seen as the source of Christian authority.

Wycliffe's notion that the Bible should be translated into the common tongue for the edification of all believers was a radical innovation, and one that spawned a movement. Working outside of the Church, translators eventually produced perhaps hundreds of so-called "Wycliffe Bibles," translated and hand-copied from the Latin. It is not clear that Wycliffe himself produced any translations into English, so they are more properly known as "Wycliffite" Bibles.

With or without Wycliffe's active involvement, the English Bible became part of an underground movement that became known as Lollardy and continued to spread after Wycliffe's death in 1384. It worried Church authorities enough that by 1407 the English translation was denounced as unauthorized, and translating or using translated Bibles was defined as heresy -- a crime for which the punishment was death by burning. In 1415 Wycliffe himself was denounced, posthumously, as a heretic. His body was exhumed and burned in 1428. Wycliffite Bibles, even after the ban, were produced in great numbers, and the 250 or so that now remain are the largest surviving body of medieval English texts. But the time was not yet right for the Bible to exist publicly in the common tongue.

See PBS for more.

Oh come on Jeff. The only reason people still speak of Bruno today is because he was executed (by civil authorities, too, and over the appeal of Cardinal Bellamarine, but that's another story).

The rest of this is just changing the subject. The claim was made that the Catholic Church tortured or executed scientists.

Name one.

(And it is simply not correct that there were countless, but today we just don't know or remember them).

[D1B]

1. Giordano Bruno

Not really a scientist, and he wasn't executed for any of his "scientific" musings, but he's the one name that, in desperation, gets thrown out when this claim of "executing scientists" is made.

If you want to say Bruno was a scientist, go ahead. He didn't engage in any scientific study, hypothesis, or use of the scientic method. But whatever.

Now name another.

STRAWMAN ALERT

[D1B]

Joe, first you're setting up a strawman here. It is widely known the church was hard on dissent, especially scientists, astronomers, cosmologists, artists and writers. As the worldwide power in the Western world for almost a couple thousand years, it's not hard to conceive that millions of men and women of science or letters were harrassed or tortured in some way or flat out killed by your church.

You need to rephrase your question to "How many still world famous scientists did the catholic church kill or torture - then you may have a point. To use this weak argument to deny the fact that countless others, perhaps those who could have cured the plague or the next Shakespeare or Voltaire, were harrassed, murdered, tortured or at the very least discouraged from furthering their work is wrong - but you know this.

The catholic church, like the nazis, also burned a shitload of books too. As far as I'm concerned, you've killed someone if you burn their life's work. Who knows the treasures that were lost due to the church and its thirst for power. To be fair here, the Jesuits and other monk groups saved science and letters during the dark ages. But here again, these were fringe groups who understood the values of Jesus as primary, not power and money.

The assembling the bible is another interesting claim. It's true, but what does this mean? There had to be tremendous power derived from that. I think most of us are well aware of countless gospels left out for one reason or another. The catholics fought hard for hundreds of years for the bible not to be translated into the language of the people. In fact, they murdered you if you translated it or were involved in the distribution of translated copies - back in the day. There's an excellent documentary on this on PBS.



See PBS for more.

Oh come on Jeff. The only reason people still speak of Bruno today is because he was executed (by civil authorities, too, and over the appeal of Cardinal Bellamarine, but that's another story).

The rest of this is just changing the subject. The claim was made that the Catholic Church tortured or executed scientists.

Name one.

(And it is simply not correct that there were countless, but today we just don't know or remember them).

I think it is correct. It's a historical fact that the church was hard on dissent for 1800 years. In fact the catholic church was a leading innovator in creating exciting and barbaric means of torturing or killing someone. Again, because science is not and was not compatible with church dogma, I bet millions were killed or tortured or harrassed.

One of my favorites. The variety and ingenuity of the methods of torture blossomed during the Inquisition.

[Cap'n Cat]

Yes, and to think someone would ask us to "name one" was was tortured or killed.

And it ain't just the prominent ones. What about all the minor scientists, etc, who were trying to do good work in smoky, dark laboratories under the onerous, domineering Church? How about all the contemporaries and assistants to these folks and the major actors who were bullied and threatened into obscurity?

I've said it before here, but mankind would have a colony on Mars right now if it weren't for the Church. And, only the Church.

[D1B]

Yes, and to think someone would ask us to "name one" was was tortured or killed.

And it ain't just the prominent ones. What about all the minor scientists, etc, who were trying to do good work in smoky, dark laboratories under the onerous, domineering Church? How about all the contemporaries and assistants to these folks and the major actors who were bullied and threatened into obscurity?

I've said it before here, but mankind would have a colony on Mars right now if it weren't for the Church. And, only the Church.

Well said. Let's not even talk about the subjection of women under catholic rule. How many women were denied education period because of the bible and the catholic church's view on women at the time.

[JoltinJoe]

Yes, and to think someone would ask us to "name one" was was tortured or killed.

And it ain't just the prominent ones. What about all the minor scientists, etc, who were trying to do good work in smoky, dark laboratories under the onerous, domineering Church? How about all the contemporaries and assistants to these folks and the major actors who were bullied and threatened into obscurity?

I've said it before here, but mankind would have a colony on Mars right now if it weren't for the Church. And, only the Church.

[D1B]

Yes, and to think someone would ask us to "name one" was was tortured or killed.

And it ain't just the prominent ones. What about all the minor scientists, etc, who were trying to do good work in smoky, dark laboratories under the onerous, domineering Church? How about all the contemporaries and assistants to these folks and the major actors who were bullied and threatened into obscurity?

I've said it before here, but mankind would have a colony on Mars right now if it weren't for the Church. And, only the Church.

Joe, do you think any men of science or letters were ever killed or tortured by your church?

[JoltinJoe]

Joe, do you think any men of science or letters were ever killed or tortured by your church?

Science, no. And that's a historical fact.

Letters? Don't know what you mean by that. People were tortured and executed by the Spanish Inquisition, true.

You and Cap greatly exaggerate the extent to which the church executed those deemed guilty of heresy. It happened, and that's not a proud fact, but your statements about the extent to which it happened are outright hyperbole.

[JMU DJ]

1. Giordano Bruno

Not really a scientist, and he wasn't executed for any of his "scientific" musings, but he's the one name that, in desperation, gets thrown out when this claim of "executing scientists" is made.

If you want to say Bruno was a scientist, go ahead. He didn't engage in any scientific study, hypothesis, or use of the scientic method. But whatever.

name another.

He was a scientist, he published scientific works, he dealt with scientific theory and was burned because he wouldn't compromise his theories.

[Cap'n Cat]

Yes, and to think someone would ask us to "name one" was was tortured or killed.

And it ain't just the prominent ones. What about all the minor scientists, etc, who were trying to do good work in smoky, dark laboratories under the onerous, domineering Church? How about all the contemporaries and assistants to these folks and the major actors who were bullied and threatened into obscurity?

I've said it before here, but mankind would have a colony on Mars right now if it weren't for the Church. And, only the Church.

Translation: "I got nothin' for that, Cap'n."