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A conservative candidate for Illinois comptroller was ordered out of the state Capitol for trying to remove a sign placed by an atheist group, officials said.

William J. Kelly calls the sign, placed by the Freedom from Religion Foundation, "hate speech," saying it mocks the views of believers, CBS2Chicago.com reported. He announced Tuesday he was going to try to remove it and made his attempt Wednesday, only to be detained by police.

The foundation has placed similar signs in several state capitol buildings. It was on display in the Illinois Capitol last year

The group's message reads: "At the time of the winter solstice, let reason prevail. There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is just myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2009/12/ ... 1261709429

The Illinois holiday display includes a Christmas tree and nativity scene and a message from the American Civil Liberties Union that it supports freedom of religion. A Jewish menorah was removed at the end of the Hanukkah festival.

It's not hate speach it's just an opinion, the same as nativity scenes. Take them all down.

kalm wrote:It's not hate speach it's just an opinion, the same as nativity scenes. Take them all down.

The difference is that a nativity scene does not mock the beliefs of others. If they want to place some kind of display that does not belittle others beliefs, then let them. Same goes with any jewish group or muslim group.

Pwns wrote:

kalm wrote:It's not hate speach it's just an opinion, the same as nativity scenes. Take them all down.

The difference is that a nativity scene does not mock the beliefs of others. If they want to place some kind of display that does not belittle others beliefs, then let them. Same goes with any jewish group or muslim group.

Define "mocking the belief of others" and show me where the right to not be mocked is mentioned in the constitution.

kalm wrote:

Pwns wrote:
The difference is that a nativity scene does not mock the beliefs of others. If they want to place some kind of display that does not belittle others beliefs, then let them. Same goes with any jewish group or muslim group.

Define "mocking the belief of others" and show me where the right to not be mocked is mentioned in the constitution.

Nice.

I am not offended by any of the displays that I have read about. But I agree, they should all be taken down. There are more important things to argue about.

kalm wrote:

Pwns wrote:
The difference is that a nativity scene does not mock the beliefs of others. If they want to place some kind of display that does not belittle others beliefs, then let them. Same goes with any jewish group or muslim group.

Define "mocking the belief of others" and show me where the right to not be mocked is mentioned in the constitution.

I didn't say no one has a right to not be mocked. I'm simply pointing out that a celebratory display is not "a opinion" as you say it is. There is no comparing that is celebratory to something that basically says that someone elses beliefs (which cannot be empirically tested) are false.

Pwns wrote:

kalm wrote:
Define "mocking the belief of others" and show me where the right to not be mocked is mentioned in the constitution.

I didn't say no one has a right to not be mocked. I'm simply pointing out that a celebratory display is not "a opinion" as you say it is. There is no comparing that is celebratory to something that basically says that someone elses beliefs (which cannot be empirically tested) are false.

One says "Jesus is the reason for the season", the other says "no he's not." They're both publicly displayed opinions. Whether you think one is offensive, negative, or non-celebratory has nothing to do with whether both belong or neither belongs.

kalm wrote:

Pwns wrote:
I didn't say no one has a right to not be mocked. I'm simply pointing out that a celebratory display is not "a opinion" as you say it is. There is no comparing that is celebratory to something that basically says that someone elses beliefs (which cannot be empirically tested) are false.

One says "Jesus is the reason for the season", the other says "no he's not." They're both publicly displayed opinions. Whether you think one is offensive, negative, or non-celebratory has nothing to do with whether both belong or neither belongs.

I usually stay away from these type of arguments, but that is just stupid. The holiday is called Christmas for a reason. You can argue that he didn't exist, that he was just a normal person, that December 25th is not his real birthday, but the one thing that you can't argue is that celebrating the birth of Jesus is the reason for the season.

Personally I think that every one should have their day in the sun. If members of a particular religion want to place a symbol in front of the court house, then they should have that right without their parade having to be rained on. If atheists want to put a sign, then they should come up with their own day of celebration.

txstatebobcat wrote:Personally I think that every one should have their day in the sun. If members of a particular religion want to place a symbol in front of the court house, then they should have that right without their parade having to be rained on. If atheists want to put a sign, then they should come up with their own day of celebration.

Of course, they could always position that day of celebration on top of Christmas or whatever, since Christmas (and other Christian holidays) were strategically placed on days in which other groups/religions had their holidays. In order to supplant them.

txstatebobcat wrote:

kalm wrote:
One says "Jesus is the reason for the season", the other says "no he's not." They're both publicly displayed opinions. Whether you think one is offensive, negative, or non-celebratory has nothing to do with whether both belong or neither belongs.

I usually stay away from these type of arguments, but that is just stupid. The holiday is called Christmas for a reason. You can argue that he didn't exist, that he was just a normal person, that December 25th is not his real birthday, but the one thing that you can't argue is that celebrating the birth of Jesus is the reason for the season.

Personally I think that every one should have their day in the sun. If members of a particular religion want to place a symbol in front of the court house, then they should have that right without their parade having to be rained on. If atheists want to put a sign, then they should come up with their own day of celebration.

Stupid would be assuming that everyone thinks like you, that displaying your opinion about the reason for the season on government buildings is neccessary, that any particular group should have jurisdiction over any particular day.

Talk about tyranny of the majority.

kalm wrote:

txstatebobcat wrote:
I usually stay away from these type of arguments, but that is just stupid. The holiday is called Christmas for a reason. You can argue that he didn't exist, that he was just a normal person, that December 25th is not his real birthday, but the one thing that you can't argue is that celebrating the birth of Jesus is the reason for the season.

Personally I think that every one should have their day in the sun. If members of a particular religion want to place a symbol in front of the court house, then they should have that right without their parade having to be rained on. If atheists want to put a sign, then they should come up with their own day of celebration.

Stupid would be assuming that everyone thinks like you, that displaying your opinion about the reason for the season on government buildings is neccessary, that any particular group should have jurisdiction over any particular day.

Talk about tyranny of the majority.

Christmas would never have come about without a celebration about the birth of Jesus, that's a fact not an opinion. Whether you or anyone wants to celebrate by giving gifts, putting up a Christmas tree, etc. then you are celebrating the birth of Jesus, and no amount of talking against it will change that.

As far as Atheist choosing the date, well I can say that the whole month of December is taken and they have to choose another. They can have January if they want it.

txstatebobcat wrote:

kalm wrote:
Stupid would be assuming that everyone thinks like you, that displaying your opinion about the reason for the season on government buildings is neccessary, that any particular group should have jurisdiction over any particular day.

Talk about tyranny of the majority.

Christmas would never have come about without a celebration about the birth of Jesus, that's a fact not an opinion. Whether you or anyone wants to celebrate by giving gifts, putting up a Christmas tree, etc. then you are celebrating the birth of Jesus, and no amount of talking against it will change that.

As far as Atheist choosing the date, well I can say that the whole month of December is taken and they have to choose another. They can have January if they want it.

Yeah because gift giving, December, and christmas trees are exclusively christian. Let me guess, you probably also think we are a christian nation and that our country was founded on judeo-christian values.

Calm down. Christianity has some very nice traditions and mythology including Jesus message of love and peace. And many people would include Christmas as one of these. But what or why you think people are celebrating or the history behind said celebration is purely your opinion.

I was confirmed a christian and have a disdain for political correctness, so I wish people a Merry Christmas to this day. But christian arrogance like the type you are wielding is making me seriously reconsider my yuletide greetings.

Happy Holidays!

kalm wrote:

txstatebobcat wrote:
Christmas would never have come about without a celebration about the birth of Jesus, that's a fact not an opinion. Whether you or anyone wants to celebrate by giving gifts, putting up a Christmas tree, etc. then you are celebrating the birth of Jesus, and no amount of talking against it will change that.

As far as Atheist choosing the date, well I can say that the whole month of December is taken and they have to choose another. They can have January if they want it.

Yeah because gift giving, December, and christmas trees are exclusively christian. Let me guess, you probably also think we are a christian nation and that our country was founded on judeo-christian values.

Calm down. Christianity has some very nice traditions and mythology including Jesus message of love and peace. And many people would include Christmas as one of these. But what or why you think people are celebrating or the history behind said celebration is purely your opinion.

I was confirmed a christian and have a disdain for political correctness, so I wish people a Merry Christmas to this day. But christian arrogance like the type you are wielding is making me seriously reconsider my yuletide greetings.

Happy Holidays!

Nearly half of the words in the English language have their origins in other languages. Does this mean that you speak English only half the time? No, by today's standards you are speaking the English language in a competent way. By the same token this is how Christians made those rituals their own over the years to the point in which they are completely Christian celebrations. As such Christmas trees and other forms of celebrating have become part of the celebration of Christmas. of which one has to ask why people do this? The answer to this is to celebrate the birth of Jesus. It all boils down to this, otherwise Christmas trees would be popping up in July. Whether you like it or not this is the truth.

You may view what I say as arrogance, however I see it as saying the truth. If Christianity were die off and the x-mas were to keep going then I would believe that X-mas would become a wholly secular holiday and the atheist signs would become irrelevant.

txstatebobcat wrote:

kalm wrote:


Yeah because gift giving, December, and christmas trees are exclusively christian. Let me guess, you probably also think we are a christian nation and that our country was founded on judeo-christian values.

Calm down. Christianity has some very nice traditions and mythology including Jesus message of love and peace. And many people would include Christmas as one of these. But what or why you think people are celebrating or the history behind said celebration is purely your opinion.

I was confirmed a christian and have a disdain for political correctness, so I wish people a Merry Christmas to this day. But christian arrogance like the type you are wielding is making me seriously reconsider my yuletide greetings.

Happy Holidays!

Nearly half of the words in the English language have their origins in other languages. Does this mean that you speak English only half the time? No, by today's standards you are speaking the English language in a competent way. By the same token this is how Christians made those rituals their own over the years to the point in which they are completely Christian celebrations. As such Christmas trees and other forms of celebrating have become part of the celebration of Christmas. of which one has to ask why people do this? The answer to this is to celebrate the birth of Jesus. It all boils down to this, otherwise Christmas trees would be popping up in July. Whether you like it or not this is the truth.

You may view what I say as arrogance, however I see it as saying the truth. If Christianity were die off and the x-mas were to keep going then I would believe that X-mas would become a wholly secular holiday and the atheist signs would become irrelevant.

In other words, christians celebrating a christian christmas is christian. I agree. Which in a secular country still grants them no greater right than anyone else to display their beliefs on a public building and makes the prohibition of any displays the practical thing to do.

BTW, as recently pointed out in another thread The "X" in Xmas is from the Greek letter Chi, which is the first letter of Χριστός, Christ in Greek. The "-mas" part came from the Latin-derived Old English word for "mass".

So x-mas = christmas.

kalm wrote:

txstatebobcat wrote:

Nearly half of the words in the English language have their origins in other languages. Does this mean that you speak English only half the time? No, by today's standards you are speaking the English language in a competent way. By the same token this is how Christians made those rituals their own over the years to the point in which they are completely Christian celebrations. As such Christmas trees and other forms of celebrating have become part of the celebration of Christmas. of which one has to ask why people do this? The answer to this is to celebrate the birth of Jesus. It all boils down to this, otherwise Christmas trees would be popping up in July. Whether you like it or not this is the truth.

You may view what I say as arrogance, however I see it as saying the truth. If Christianity were die off and the x-mas were to keep going then I would believe that X-mas would become a wholly secular holiday and the atheist signs would become irrelevant.

In other words, christians celebrating a christian christmas is christian. I agree. Which in a secular country still grants them no greater right than anyone else to display their beliefs on a public building and makes the prohibition of any displays the practical thing to do.

BTW, as recently pointed out in another thread The "X" in Xmas is from the Greek letter Chi, which is the first letter of Χριστός, Christ in Greek. The "-mas" part came from the Latin-derived Old English word for "mass".

So x-mas = christmas.

The point is that there wouldn't be a Christmas without Christians celebrating it. Otherwise it wouldn't be Christmas thus my point of using x-mass (which by the way I know what it means, I just doubt that 90% of the population that uses it does and which is why I used it as an example).

txstatebobcat wrote:

kalm wrote:
In other words, christians celebrating a christian christmas is christian. I agree. Which in a secular country still grants them no greater right than anyone else to display their beliefs on a public building and makes the prohibition of any displays the practical thing to do.

BTW, as recently pointed out in another thread The "X" in Xmas is from the Greek letter Chi, which is the first letter of Χριστός, Christ in Greek. The "-mas" part came from the Latin-derived Old English word for "mass".

So x-mas = christmas.

The point is that there wouldn't be a Christmas without Christians celebrating it. Otherwise it wouldn't be Christmas thus my point of using x-mass (which by the way I know what it means, I just doubt that 90% of the population that uses it does and which is why I used it as an example).

But there would always be a holiday celebrated near the winter solstice by everybody, which was the main reason that Christmas is not celebrated near Jesus' birthday: if you can't beat them join them.

BlueHen86 wrote:

kalm wrote:
Define "mocking the belief of others" and show me where the right to not be mocked is mentioned in the constitution.

Nice.

I am not offended by any of the displays that I have read about. But I agree, they should all be taken down. There are more important things to argue about.

Exactly. Religion is just early man's attempt at cosmology; the field has moved on and we have a lot more information about the universe now so we have better ideas of what it is and how it works. Just like we now know that the Earth isn't flat but some people insist on clinging to that belief, thus with religion.

kalm wrote:

txstatebobcat wrote:
Christmas would never have come about without a celebration about the birth of Jesus, that's a fact not an opinion. Whether you or anyone wants to celebrate by giving gifts, putting up a Christmas tree, etc. then you are celebrating the birth of Jesus, and no amount of talking against it will change that.

As far as Atheist choosing the date, well I can say that the whole month of December is taken and they have to choose another. They can have January if they want it.

Yeah because gift giving, December, and christmas trees are exclusively christian. Let me guess, you probably also think we are a christian nation and that our country was founded on judeo-christian values.

Calm down. Christianity has some very nice traditions and mythology including Jesus message of love and peace. And many people would include Christmas as one of these. But what or why you think people are celebrating or the history behind said celebration is purely your opinion.

I was confirmed a christian and have a disdain for political correctness, so I wish people a Merry Christmas to this day. But christian arrogance like the type you are wielding is making me seriously reconsider my yuletide greetings.

Happy Holidays!

I'm not sure I get the big deal on either side, but especially the Christians (myself included). Christmas isn't even the high holiday. While we're at it, this Christian thinks "In God We Trust" should be taken off of the currency...talk about blasphemy...to GOD!

ASUMountaineer wrote:

kalm wrote:


Yeah because gift giving, December, and christmas trees are exclusively christian. Let me guess, you probably also think we are a christian nation and that our country was founded on judeo-christian values.

Calm down. Christianity has some very nice traditions and mythology including Jesus message of love and peace. And many people would include Christmas as one of these. But what or why you think people are celebrating or the history behind said celebration is purely your opinion.

I was confirmed a christian and have a disdain for political correctness, so I wish people a Merry Christmas to this day. But christian arrogance like the type you are wielding is making me seriously reconsider my yuletide greetings.

Happy Holidays!

I'm not sure I get the big deal on either side, but especially the Christians (myself included). Christmas isn't even the high holiday. While we're at it, this Christian thinks "In God We Trust" should be taken off of the currency...talk about blasphemy...to GOD!

Word.

Hey, it's a free country, somewhat, and anybody that wants to believe that the universe is accurately described by ancient nomadic goat herders has every right to believe that way, just as I have every right to be embarrassed by their ignorance.

houndawg wrote:

ASUMountaineer wrote:
I'm not sure I get the big deal on either side, but especially the Christians (myself included). Christmas isn't even the high holiday. While we're at it, this Christian thinks "In God We Trust" should be taken off of the currency...talk about blasphemy...to GOD!

Word.

Hey, it's a free country, somewhat, and anybody that wants to believe that the universe is accurately described by ancient nomadic goat herders has every right to believe that way, just as I have every right to be embarrassed by their ignorance.

Amazing how people can come together when they aren't so self-involved huh? I know it's mind-blowing, but people who have differing opinions, actually can coexist.