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As someone who grew up in a Catholic school system, I continue to remain disappointed in our local public school system.

My wife and I chose a community significantly based on the reputation of the school system. We pay high taxes, but the tradeoff is that our school system is ranked among the top 500 local school systems in the United States.

But my son, now in second grade, continues to bring home homework which seems remarkably unchallenging and non-stimulating for a bright second grader. His reading material which is assigned is not more challenging than books my wife and I gave him to read when he was in kindergarten -- so much so that we recently purchased for him the first Harry Potter book (which he read in about a week) and now the second Harry Potter book. He has never taken a test; all grading is still based on subjective impression. He has never been drilled in his multiplication tables -- something I knew by heart by second grade.

This is a highly rated public school system. I know all about trying to build self-esteem, but self-esteem is false if it is based on lowering the bar. Kids need to be tested, challenged, presented opportunities to succeed, not simply given tasks that they cannot fail. Say what you will about the nuns, but they pushed you to succeed, and scolded you when you tried to skimp by on modest effort. Now, from what I can see, a modest effort is all that is needed to succeed.

I'd like to blame it on "No child left behind" which I also call "No child gets ahead". Our school administered an IQ test to my kids when they were in first grade or so. My younger son scored over 140 (which is considered gifted), but nothing ever came of it, to this day I still don't what the purpose of the test was.

I do think schools teach differently now than they did when I was there. My older son, who is currently in 9th grade, started learning calculus while in 8th grade. I didn't have calculus until I is was in college. On the other hand, I knew a lot more history, geography and science in 9th grade than he does now.

Every two years my kids take standardized tests and I think the school prepares them for the test by focusing on the test material - which is primarily reading and math.

Hey Joe I know I make significantly less than you and my wife stays at home. All three of my girls are in Catholic school. Make the sacrifice if you don't like the product.

BlueHen86 wrote:I'd like to blame it on "No child left behind" which I also call "No child gets ahead". Our school administered an IQ test to my kids when they were in first grade or so. My younger son scored over 140 (which is considered gifted), but nothing ever came of it, to this day I still don't what the purpose of the test was.

I do think schools teach differently now than they did when I was there. My older son, who is currently in 9th grade, started learning calculus while in 8th grade. I didn't have calculus until I is was in college. On the other hand, I knew a lot more history, geography and science in 9th grade than he does now.

Every two years my kids take standardized tests and I think the school prepares them for the test by focusing on the test material - which is primarily reading and math.

I'm going to guess that the purpose of that test was to identify potential underachievers who are specially challenged to maintain grade level and require the assistance of a full-time aid to do so. In my son's class alone, there are two full-time employees of our school district who spend a half-day, every day, working with one child each.

But I'm going to guess in your district, there are no full-time employees who provide an "enhancement" experience for a kid with a 140-level IQ, on a one-on-one level. At least there aren't any in ours. The "gifted" students have one teacher for one "enhancement" class every day.

andy7171 wrote:Hey Joe I know I make significantly less than you and my wife stays at home. All three of my girls are in Catholic school. Make the sacrifice if you don't like the product.

We looked at the Catholic school in town. However, it draws a significant portion of its students from nearby school district with a substantial second-language population. It does a great job teaching these students, and they score higher in the state achievement tests than you would expect. However, the school my son is in scores near the top of New York state schools in achievement tests, so we thought he would be better served in the public school. We pay up the whazoo in taxes for the "privilege" of having this school district. We thought we should use it.

My experience tells me it depends on what part of the country the public school is located and the size of the classes in that school.

JoltinJoe wrote:

BlueHen86 wrote:I'd like to blame it on "No child left behind" which I also call "No child gets ahead". Our school administered an IQ test to my kids when they were in first grade or so. My younger son scored over 140 (which is considered gifted), but nothing ever came of it, to this day I still don't what the purpose of the test was.

I do think schools teach differently now than they did when I was there. My older son, who is currently in 9th grade, started learning calculus while in 8th grade. I didn't have calculus until I is was in college. On the other hand, I knew a lot more history, geography and science in 9th grade than he does now.

Every two years my kids take standardized tests and I think the school prepares them for the test by focusing on the test material - which is primarily reading and math.

I'm going to guess that the purpose of that test was to identify potential underachievers who are specially challenged to maintain grade level and require the assistance of a full-time aid to do so. In my son's class alone, there are two full-time employees of our school district who spend a half-day, every day, working with one child each.

But I'm going to guess in your district, there are no full-time employees who provide an "enhancement" experience for a kid with a 140-level IQ. At least there aren't any in ours.

I think you nailed it.

My son-in-law teaches third grade in a highly ranked school system here in Northern Virginia...talking with him over the Christmas break, I was amazed to find they don't even teach the multiplication tables any more...

Teaching today has gravitated from make the kids smart, to make them excellent test takers...

In Virginia, they teach to the Standards of Learning...SOLs are the tests students take at certain levels, and are the basis of school funding levels...if it's not on the SOLs, the kids are not taught it, because it won't bring money into the district...

Thank you George Bush and Ted Kennedy for No Child Left Behind.....

The Florida public school system is not the best in the world, for sure, but my oldest daughter managed to get into the "gifted" program in first grade and has since taken a fair amount of "advanced" math, science, reading and writing. We have been very pleased with this program and she has been mostly challenged throughout most of her school career thus far.

We were less pleased with my five year old's kindergarten class and immediately put her on a waiting list for a fundamental school. Today was her first day at her new school - we'll see how that goes.

Col Hogan wrote:My son-in-law teaches third grade in a highly ranked school system here in Northern Virginia...talking with him over the Christmas break, I was amazed to find they don't even teach the multiplication tables any more...

Teaching today has gravitated from make the kids smart, to make them excellent test takers...

In Virginia, they teach to the Standards of Learning...SOLs are the tests students take at certain levels, and are the basis of school funding levels...if it's not on the SOLs, the kids are not taught it, because it won't bring money into the district...

Thank you George Bush and Ted Kennedy for No Child Left Behind.....

Thanks Dave. Now I understand why my son's school scores so high in the New York State achievement tests, but does not seem to instruct so well on the nuts-and-bolts foundations of learning.

I guess I'll have to teach him the multiplication tables at home.

I went to catholic and public schools growing up.

Just my experience but overall my catholic school sucked. We had some really good teachers, and classes were generally smaller and had motivated students, but options were so limited. My HS has virtaully no AP classes or variety.

In public school you may have some overcrowding and the like, but at least options and AP classes exist.

All the nuns I had in school were dumb and poor teachers. They simply required that you memorize things and spit them back. Learning and memorization are quite different. I understand certain things simply need to be memorized -- grammar rules, basic math functions etc., but memorization isnt the foundation or an education.

Franks Tanks wrote:I went to catholic and public schools growing up.

Just my experience but overall my catholic school sucked. We had some really good teachers, and classes were generally smaller and had motivated students, but options were so limited. My HS has virtaully no AP classes or variety.

In public school you may have some overcrowding and the like, but at least options and AP classes exist.

All the nuns I had in school were dumb and poor teachers. They simply required that you memorize things and spit them back. Learning and memorization are quite different. I understand certain things simply need to be memorized -- grammar rules, basic math functions etc., but memorization isnt the foundation or an education.

But you wound up at Lafayette. They must have done something right.

JoltinJoe wrote:

Franks Tanks wrote:I went to catholic and public schools growing up.

Just my experience but overall my catholic school sucked. We had some really good teachers, and classes were generally smaller and had motivated students, but options were so limited. My HS has virtaully no AP classes or variety.

In public school you may have some overcrowding and the like, but at least options and AP classes exist.

All the nuns I had in school were dumb and poor teachers. They simply required that you memorize things and spit them back. Learning and memorization are quite different. I understand certain things simply need to be memorized -- grammar rules, basic math functions etc., but memorization isnt the foundation or an education.

But you wound up at Lafayette. They must have done something right.

I did have some wonderful teachers, but I also got stuck in some poor classes. I wanted to take AP history, Govt and econ classes in High School but they werent available. I did have small classes and teachers who demanded I did well--but as some point the lack of options become frustrating. My HS football coach is/was a tremendous educator. He has won about 230 FB gams and pushed countless young guys in the classroom and on the field to help them achieve their potential. I owe a lot to him for pushing me as a youngster.

I am sure larger catholic schools exist with more resources, and they may be great options. Unfortunnatly Joe you may be stuck pushing your budding genius on your own a bit.

Franks Tanks wrote:

JoltinJoe wrote:
But you wound up at Lafayette. They must have done something right.

I did have some wonderful teachers, but I also got stuck in some poor classes. I wanted to take AP history, Govt and econ classes in High School but they werent available. I did have small classes and teachers who demanded I did well--but as some point the lack of options become frustrating. My HS football coach is/was a tremendous educator. He has won about 230 FB gams and pushed countless young guys in the classroom and on the field to help them achieve their potential. I owe a lot to him for pushing me as a youngster.

I am sure larger catholic schools exist with more resources, and they may be great options. Unfortunnatly Joe you may be stuck pushing your budding genius on your own a bit.

You Patriot League guys will complain about anything. Paying attention and learning in HS? PUH-LEASE!

That said. Franks has a valid point. Our neighbor has a kid who had medical issues very early in life. He started going to the same school my girls are at and they eventually pulled him for the public school because they had a full time speach therapist to work with him opposed to one that came in once a week at St. Agnes.


edit: that was quite the run on sentence, eh?

Franks Tanks wrote:

JoltinJoe wrote:
But you wound up at Lafayette. They must have done something right.

I did have some wonderful teachers, but I also got stuck in some poor classes. I wanted to take AP history, Govt and econ classes in High School but they werent available. I did have small classes and teachers who demanded I did well--but as some point the lack of options become frustrating. My HS football coach is/was a tremendous educator. He has won about 230 FB gams and pushed countless young guys in the classroom and on the field to help them achieve their potential. I owe a lot to him for pushing me as a youngster.

I am sure larger catholic schools exist with more resources, and they may be great options. Unfortunnatly Joe you may be stuck pushing your budding genius on your own a bit.

I don't know if he's a budding genius, but he certainly seems capable of working right now beyond the level of his current homework assignments.

It's funny, because just this morning, my wife and I received an email saying Brian was being moved for this trimester marking period into a special reading group with just four other kids in his grade.

andy7171 wrote:edit: that was quite the run on sentence, eh?

That's OK. We all know you had a Catholic education.

Public Schools are hampered by several things:

1) First and foremost, standardized testing. This leads to teaching to the test, not the underlying concepts.
2) Diversion of resources for disabled/thought to be disabled. While mainstreaming, and other programs to bring those with problems out from the shadows are well intentioned, and very good, it diverts limited resources away from the majority of students. Ideally, there would be enough funding to do both, but there is not.
3) Lazy parents who do not want to take responsibility, nor accept that little Johnny has issues.
4) The "self-esteem" movement. I orginally was going to be a teacher. Was told I would be great at it. But I battled my education teachers over "self-esteem", and the concept of "giving kids self-esteem". My argument is that if someone gives you self-esteem, they can take it away. ON the other hand, if you create an environment where children can EARN self-esteem, then no one can take that away from them.

SunCoastBlueHen wrote:

andy7171 wrote:edit: that was quite the run on sentence, eh?

That's OK. We all know you had a Catholic education.

Yeah me not paying attention definately isn't the problem here.

JoltinJoe wrote:I don't know if he's a budding genius, but he certainly seems capable of working right now beyond the level of his current homework assignments.

It's funny, because just this morning, my wife and I received an email saying Brian was being moved for this trimester marking period into a special reading group with just four other kids in his grade.

Joe,

I'm sure you and your wife provide a good deal of education at home - I would guess more than the average parents of the kids in your son's class. Additionally, I'm sure your son is a very bright kid. 2nd grade ain't much of a challenge for any kid at any school who falls into that category. As the grades move on, I'm sure they will start to separate out the kids who are ahead and challenge them more. I think the reading group you described is the first sign of that.

BlueHen86 wrote:

JoltinJoe wrote:
I'm going to guess that the purpose of that test was to identify potential underachievers who are specially challenged to maintain grade level and require the assistance of a full-time aid to do so. In my son's class alone, there are two full-time employees of our school district who spend a half-day, every day, working with one child each.

But I'm going to guess in your district, there are no full-time employees who provide an "enhancement" experience for a kid with a 140-level IQ. At least there aren't any in ours.

I think you nailed it.

I remember taking one of these around 2nd or 3rd grade, but something actually came of it. About 20 of us got put into a "gifted program". I was significantly bored with school until about the 7th or 8th grade. It wasn't challenging, I never needed to study, I was done with my homework by the time school let out and I got in trouble for "not paying attention" even though I had straight A's. I understand the concept of "no child left behind," but it shouldn't also mean "hold children back while they wait for the others to catch up."

Oh and Joe, are those school psychologist? A lot of school districts employ school psychologist now who have masters in early child hood psychology.

Col Hogan wrote:
Teaching today has gravitated from make the kids smart, to make them excellent test takers...

In Virginia, they teach to the Standards of Learning...SOLs are the tests students take at certain levels, and are the basis of school funding levels...if it's not on the SOLs, the kids are not taught it, because it won't bring money into the district...

Thank you George Bush and Ted Kennedy for No Child Left Behind.....

I remember when they were doing test runs of the SOLs in VA, I had to take them, but they weren't used to mark my progression (that happened the year or two after I graduated). These test were a joke, things I was being tested on my senior year of high school were things I'd been taught in 9th or 10th grade. The SATs, GREs, etc are a joke too... I laughed when I took the GRE, it was like being in 10th grade all over again trying to figure out the missing angle in a right triangle. I'm glad I went to school when I did, the high school I attended was in the top 100 in the nation... but ever since the institution of SOLs, the school has progressively dropped and is no longer ranked (probably because all the teachers who actually challenged you quit, retired or moved).


I'm surprised how many kids at UGA don't know how to think for themselves. I've met quite a few undergrads in the science fields here who can't produce an answer unless it was written in the text book. It's memorization and regurgitation...

dbackjon wrote:Public Schools are hampered by several things:

1) First and foremost, standardized testing. This leads to teaching to the test, not the underlying concepts.
2) Diversion of resources for disabled/thought to be disabled. While mainstreaming, and other programs to bring those with problems out from the shadows are well intentioned, and very good, it diverts limited resources away from the majority of students. Ideally, there would be enough funding to do both, but there is not.
3) Lazy parents who do not want to take responsibility, nor accept that little Johnny has issues.
4) The "self-esteem" movement. I orginally was going to be a teacher. Was told I would be great at it. But I battled my education teachers over "self-esteem", and the concept of "giving kids self-esteem". My argument is that if someone gives you self-esteem, they can take it away. ON the other hand, if you create an environment where children can EARN self-esteem, then no one can take that away from them.

WOW...Great post, jon.....

And IMHO, if we fixed #3...the other problems might be fixable too...but without engaged, responsible parents...the other things will continue...

Col Hogan wrote:

dbackjon wrote:Public Schools are hampered by several things:

1) First and foremost, standardized testing. This leads to teaching to the test, not the underlying concepts.
2) Diversion of resources for disabled/thought to be disabled. While mainstreaming, and other programs to bring those with problems out from the shadows are well intentioned, and very good, it diverts limited resources away from the majority of students. Ideally, there would be enough funding to do both, but there is not.
3) Lazy parents who do not want to take responsibility, nor accept that little Johnny has issues.
4) The "self-esteem" movement. I orginally was going to be a teacher. Was told I would be great at it. But I battled my education teachers over "self-esteem", and the concept of "giving kids self-esteem". My argument is that if someone gives you self-esteem, they can take it away. ON the other hand, if you create an environment where children can EARN self-esteem, then no one can take that away from them.

WOW...Great post, jon.....

And IMHO, if we fixed #3...the other problems might be fixable too...but without engaged, responsible parents...the other things will continue...

Suprised I can make a post like that?

Yup - engaged, realistic parents are the key.

There are a few IQ tests - the original design of IQ testing was for children
it was designed to identify "potential" not measure existing knowledge

If you have a child that scores 140 there isn't a school system in America suited to help that child

You'll need an after school tutor just to keep the kid entertained

"Highly ranked school system" usually a fancy way of saying "school precinct with very low percentage of students in lower socioeconomic brackets". There really isn't any more rigor in those schools whatsoever. What '86 said is also true. If you are looking for a public school with a good gifted program you are wasting your time - you aren't going to see anything like that in this age of the great republicrat NCLB Act.