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"...The question is how solve problems. It's not bailouts. What made America great? Free markets, free enterprise, manufacturing, job creation. That's how we're gonna do it, not by enlarging government."

-Scott Brown


Quoted in a superb op-ed piece by Peggy Noonan in the Wall Street Journal

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... LEFTSecond

We've already seen the kind of damage "free", under-regulated financial markets can do to the economy. Socialism isn't the answer, but neither is free-for-all corporatism.

If you were a normal human sitting at home having a beer and watching national politics peripherally, as normal people do until they focus on an election, chances are pretty good you came to see the two major parties not as the Dems versus the Reps, or the blue versus the red, but as the Nuts versus the Creeps. The Nuts were for high spending and taxing and the expansion of government no matter what. The Creeps were hypocrites who talked one thing and did another, who went along on the spending spree while lecturing on fiscal solvency.

Nuts and Creeps. I love it!

A stroke of genius, as most of her writings are.

Grizalltheway wrote:We've already seen the kind of damage "free", under-regulated financial markets can do to the economy. Socialism isn't the answer, but neither is free-for-all corporatism.

You sure you posted this in the right forum? Where, in this article, is this issue addressed?

Grizalltheway wrote:We've already seen the kind of damage "free", under-regulated financial markets can do to the economy. Socialism isn't the answer, but neither is free-for-all corporatism.

Are you referring to the "free-for-all-corporatism" imposed in the form of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac by socialists like Barney Frank and acceded to by liberal Republicans like the Bushes?

Absurd.

AZGrizFan wrote:

Grizalltheway wrote:We've already seen the kind of damage "free", under-regulated financial markets can do to the economy. Socialism isn't the answer, but neither is free-for-all corporatism.

You sure you posted this in the right forum? Where, in this article, is this issue addressed?

Did you read the quote from Brown?

native wrote:

Grizalltheway wrote:We've already seen the kind of damage "free", under-regulated financial markets can do to the economy. Socialism isn't the answer, but neither is free-for-all corporatism.

Are you referring to the "free-for-all-corporatism" imposed in the form of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac by socialists like Barney Frank and acceded to by liberal Republicans like the Bushes?

Absurd.

But wait!!! There's more!!!

barwey Fwank and his "committee" are getting ready to announce their recommendations for "replacing Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac with a 'whole new system of housing finance.' "

As bad as the corruption and downright incompetence at FNMA and FHLMC have been I sure as hell am scared about what Barwey Fwank (who has the big banks- particularly BofA- deep in his pockets) are going to come up with. If it is only 1/1000 as bad a cluster f-ck as HVCC and the new Reg X and RESPA laws it will still be catastrophic.

Shudder.....

native wrote:

Grizalltheway wrote:We've already seen the kind of damage "free", under-regulated financial markets can do to the economy. Socialism isn't the answer, but neither is free-for-all corporatism.

Are you referring to the "free-for-all-corporatism" imposed in the form of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac by socialists like Barney Frank and acceded to by liberal Republicans like the Bushes?

Absurd.

I'm talking about the notion that businesses (especially corporations) ALWAYS do what's best for the economy, and the government ALWAYS fucks it up. A careful balance between the two is needed.

Grizalltheway wrote:We've already seen the kind of damage "free", under-regulated financial markets can do to the economy. Socialism isn't the answer, but neither is free-for-all corporatism.

The markets were not truly "free." Government propping up banks by letting them print money, then turning a blind eye to clear corruption, as long as they played by government's rules is not ideal either. There were many components to what caused the economic collapse, supposed "free" markets was one of them. But, so was Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and CRA. Keep in mind, if the markets were truly "free," we wouldn't need free trade agreements.

Grizalltheway wrote:

AZGrizFan wrote:
You sure you posted this in the right forum? Where, in this article, is this issue addressed?

Did you read the quote from Brown?

Sorry. I stopped reading at "not bailouts".

Question: If socialism isn't the answer, why are Congress and the President pushing us so hard in that direction?

AZGrizFan wrote:

Grizalltheway wrote:
Did you read the quote from Brown?

Sorry. I stopped reading at "not bailouts".

Question: If socialism isn't the answer, why are Congress and the President pushing us so hard in that direction?

They aren't. It's just that you, and other conkholes, have some trouble with the definition of socialism:

Socialism refers to the various theories of economic organization advocating public or direct worker ownership and administration of the means of production and allocation of resources, and a society characterized by equal access to resources for all individuals with a method of compensation based on the amount of labor expended

Grizalltheway wrote:

native wrote:
Are you referring to the "free-for-all-corporatism" imposed in the form of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac by socialists like Barney Frank and acceded to by liberal Republicans like the Bushes?

Absurd.

I'm talking about the notion that businesses (especially corporations) ALWAYS do what's best for the economy, and the government ALWAYS **** it up. A careful balance between the two is needed.

I am not a lover of corporate power, but government screws up far more than corporations. At least corporate screw ups are eventually self-correcting.

Because of our creeping socialism and undermining of our Constitution, Elections do not have the same corrective effect on failed politicians as markets have on failed corporations. All the conservatives manage to do during brief periods of sanity is stabilize socialist tendencies in place, not turn them back.

Your theoretical blathering is irrelevant, GTHW. "Spreading the wealth" is socialism. Period.

Corporations had a conscience.
Government had a backbone.
Americans cared about their neighbors.

Sadly, none of those exist anymore.

mainejeff wrote:Corporations had a conscience.
Government had a backbone.
Americans cared about their neighbors.

Sadly, none of those exist anymore.

There are plenty of places in America where neighbors care about each other!

Grizalltheway wrote:
They aren't. It's just that you, and other conkholes, have some trouble with the definition of socialism:

Socialism refers to the various theories of economic organization advocating public or direct worker ownership and administration of the means of production and allocation of resources, and a society characterized by equal access to resources for all individuals with a method of compensation based on the amount of labor expended

Tell that to General Motors and Chrysler.

native wrote:

mainejeff wrote:Corporations had a conscience.
Government had a backbone.
Americans cared about their neighbors.

Sadly, none of those exist anymore.

There are plenty of places in America where neighbors care about each other!

MT is one of them. But I think he's right about the other two.

native wrote:

mainejeff wrote:Corporations had a conscience.
Government had a backbone.
Americans cared about their neighbors.

Sadly, none of those exist anymore.

There are plenty of places in America where neighbors care about each other!

In gated religious compounds???........

Grizalltheway wrote:

native wrote:
There are plenty of places in America where neighbors care about each other!

MT is one of them. But I think he's right about the other two.

We give ourselves too much credit.

mainejeff wrote:

native wrote:
There are plenty of places in America where neighbors care about each other!

In gated religious compounds???........

Probably in those places, too.

Let me tell you about my neighborhood in San Diego. On New Year's eve, I was at a local strip mall when I passed an elderly man grasping a walker and standing near a handicapped parking place with a worried look on his face. A middle aged fellow with a young son had joined the old man. I asked them if something was wrong, if they needed any help. It turns out they were standing guard over a wallet someone had dropped near that parking place. They said they had seen a lady with a purple blouse walking away from that parking place. Perhaps it was her wallet? I remembered walking past a lady in a purple blouse, so I picked up the wallet and rushed into the store and found the lady in the purple blouse, but she said the wallet was not hers. She also mentioned that she had seen a lady with a car full of party balloons leaving that parking place as she was driving up. So I gave the wallet to the store manager. Going back to the parking pace, I saw a car full of party balloons double parked near the place where we originally found the wallet and stood there looking around for its owner. Pretty soon, a lady with tears in hers eyes, who resembled the picture in the driver's license inside the wallet, walked up to me and asked, "was it you?" I told her about the old man and chasing he lady with the purple blouse, and gave her a big old hug as she said "thank you."

Five strangers each did the right thing that day. As a result, the lady who lost her wallet found it. Each of the five strangers had the opportunity to steal the wallet, but each did the right thing.

Don't tell me no one cares.

native wrote:

mainejeff wrote:
In gated religious compounds???........

Probably in those places, too.

Let me tell you about my neighborhood in San Diego. On New Year's eve, I was at a local strip mall when I passed an elderly man grasping a walker and standing near a handicapped parking place with a worried look on his face. A middle aged fellow with a young son had joined the old man. I asked them if something was wrong, if they needed any help. It turns out they were standing guard over a wallet someone had dropped near that parking place. They said they had seen a lady with a purple blouse walking away from that parking place. Perhaps it was her wallet? I remembered walking past a lady in a purple blouse, so I picked up the wallet and rushed into the store and found the lady in the purple blouse, but she said the wallet was not hers. She also mentioned that she had seen a lady with a car full of party balloons leaving that parking place as she was driving up. So I gave the wallet to the store manager. Going back to the parking pace, I saw a car full of party balloons double parked near the place where we originally found the wallet and stood there looking around for its owner. Pretty soon, a lady with tears in hers eyes, who resembled the picture in the driver's license inside the wallet, walked up to me and asked, "was it you?" I told her about the old man and chasing he lady with the purple blouse, and gave her a big old hug as she said "thank you."

Five strangers each did the right thing that day. As a result, the lady who lost her wallet found it. Each of the five strangers had the opportunity to steal the wallet, but each did the right thing.

Don't tell me no one cares.

That was all warm and fuzzy! We all know that stuff like this happens everyday......as well as bad stories to match every good one. Still doesn't change my view on what has happened to Americans and what made America "great" at one time............

mainejeff wrote:

native wrote:
Probably in those places, too.

Let me tell you about my neighborhood in San Diego. On New Year's eve, I was at a local strip mall when I passed an elderly man grasping a walker and standing near a handicapped parking place with a worried look on his face. A middle aged fellow with a young son had joined the old man. I asked them if something was wrong, if they needed any help. It turns out they were standing guard over a wallet someone had dropped near that parking place. They said they had seen a lady with a purple blouse walking away from that parking place. Perhaps it was her wallet? I remembered walking past a lady in a purple blouse, so I picked up the wallet and rushed into the store and found the lady in the purple blouse, but she said the wallet was not hers. She also mentioned that she had seen a lady with a car full of party balloons leaving that parking place as she was driving up. So I gave the wallet to the store manager. Going back to the parking pace, I saw a car full of party balloons double parked near the place where we originally found the wallet and stood there looking around for its owner. Pretty soon, a lady with tears in hers eyes, who resembled the picture in the driver's license inside the wallet, walked up to me and asked, "was it you?" I told her about the old man and chasing he lady with the purple blouse, and gave her a big old hug as she said "thank you."

Five strangers each did the right thing that day. As a result, the lady who lost her wallet found it. Each of the five strangers had the opportunity to steal the wallet, but each did the right thing.

Don't tell me no one cares.

That was all warm and fuzzy! We all know that stuff like this happens everyday......as well as bad stories to match every good one. Still doesn't change my view on what has happened to Americans and what made America "great" at one time............

The Mennonites where I grew up still build homes and barns for each other, and donate lots of time and money for those less fortunate.

Corporations may be soulless, but lots of corporate executives and business people do great things every day for their employees, customers and our economy.

Greatness still exists in America, and Greatness could prevail again in America. It could happen!

mainejeff wrote:

native wrote:
Probably in those places, too.

Let me tell you about my neighborhood in San Diego. On New Year's eve, I was at a local strip mall when I passed an elderly man grasping a walker and standing near a handicapped parking place with a worried look on his face. A middle aged fellow with a young son had joined the old man. I asked them if something was wrong, if they needed any help. It turns out they were standing guard over a wallet someone had dropped near that parking place. They said they had seen a lady with a purple blouse walking away from that parking place. Perhaps it was her wallet? I remembered walking past a lady in a purple blouse, so I picked up the wallet and rushed into the store and found the lady in the purple blouse, but she said the wallet was not hers. She also mentioned that she had seen a lady with a car full of party balloons leaving that parking place as she was driving up. So I gave the wallet to the store manager. Going back to the parking pace, I saw a car full of party balloons double parked near the place where we originally found the wallet and stood there looking around for its owner. Pretty soon, a lady with tears in hers eyes, who resembled the picture in the driver's license inside the wallet, walked up to me and asked, "was it you?" I told her about the old man and chasing he lady with the purple blouse, and gave her a big old hug as she said "thank you."

Five strangers each did the right thing that day. As a result, the lady who lost her wallet found it. Each of the five strangers had the opportunity to steal the wallet, but each did the right thing.

Don't tell me no one cares.

That was all warm and fuzzy! We all know that stuff like this happens everyday......as well as bad stories to match every good one. Still doesn't change my view on what has happened to Americans and what made America "great" at one time............

Maybe you should try living in a red state.

(Just not a southern one, please.)

Ironic that the answer to "What made America Great" is african slaves, white indentured servants from europe, the chinese (rail roads), the poor, and now Mexican labor.

All victims of unregulated capitalism.

native wrote:

mainejeff wrote:Corporations had a conscience.
Government had a backbone.
Americans cared about their neighbors.

Sadly, none of those exist anymore.

There are plenty of places in America where neighbors care about each other!

Unless you live next door to manegeff