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http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2010 ... n-beck/?hp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He makes Bill Maher normal.

cman,

In a way I agree with Beck. I don't want churches telling me my politics have to be a certain way or else I'm not a good Christian. It's the same way with churches that push the gay marriage issue.

Pwns wrote:cman,

In a way I agree with Beck. I don't want churches telling me my politics have to be a certain way or else I'm not a good Christian. It's the same way with churches that push the gay marriage issue.

He's not talking about churches telling you your politics. He's talking about churches preaching "social justice"... I think that's mainly (and I'm sure Conks would agree) through charity. What kind of church doesn't preach charity? Even his own LDS church (one of the most traditionally conservative) is pissed at him advocating leaving churches that preach "social justice."

Skjellyfetti wrote:

Pwns wrote:cman,

In a way I agree with Beck. I don't want churches telling me my politics have to be a certain way or else I'm not a good Christian. It's the same way with churches that push the gay marriage issue.

He's not talking about churches telling you your politics. He's talking about churches preaching "social justice"... I think that's mainly (and I'm sure Conks would agree) through charity. What kind of church doesn't preach charity? Even his own LDS church (one of the most traditionally conservative) is pissed at him advocating leaving churches that preach "social justice."

No! No! No!

When Beck criticizes churches espousing "social justice," he is criticizing the corruption and abuse of the gospel to support partisan political means to accomplish forced wealth redistribution. Beck is NOT criticizing personal or church charity.

native wrote:

Skjellyfetti wrote:
He's not talking about churches telling you your politics. He's talking about churches preaching "social justice"... I think that's mainly (and I'm sure Conks would agree) through charity. What kind of church doesn't preach charity? Even his own LDS church (one of the most traditionally conservative) is pissed at him advocating leaving churches that preach "social justice."

No! No! No!

When Beck criticizes churches espousing "social justice," he is criticizing the corruption and abuse of the gospel to support partisan political means to accomplish forced wealth redistribution. Beck is NOT criticizing personal or church charity.

could of fooled me which is why he fails

Skjellyfetti wrote:

Pwns wrote:cman,

In a way I agree with Beck. I don't want churches telling me my politics have to be a certain way or else I'm not a good Christian. It's the same way with churches that push the gay marriage issue.

He's not talking about churches telling you your politics. He's talking about churches preaching "social justice"... I think that's mainly (and I'm sure Conks would agree) through charity. What kind of church doesn't preach charity? Even his own LDS church (one of the most traditionally conservative) is pissed at him advocating leaving churches that preach "social justice."

I don't have a problem with preachers preaching generosity. But I think the term "social justice" pretty much implies government mandated generosity. I don't want a preacher saying we must fight for Obamacare any more than I want one saying we must fight gay marriage.

Pwns wrote:But I think the term "social justice" pretty much implies government mandated generosity.

"pretty much implies"........ Hmmm. I think that means that your Conk radar goes off when you hear it and makes you think "government mandated generosity" when it could just as easily be "church encouraged generosity." You, native and Beck just choose to hear "government mandated generosity because you're borderline paranoid.

Pwns wrote:

Skjellyfetti wrote:
He's not talking about churches telling you your politics. He's talking about churches preaching "social justice"... I think that's mainly (and I'm sure Conks would agree) through charity. What kind of church doesn't preach charity? Even his own LDS church (one of the most traditionally conservative) is pissed at him advocating leaving churches that preach "social justice."

I don't have a problem with preachers preaching generosity. But I think the term "social justice" pretty much implies government mandated generosity. I don't want a preacher saying we must fight for Obamacare any more than I want one saying we must fight gay marriage.

Attacking free enterprise, business, property ownership and individual liberty is exactly "social justice" is all about. From Wiki, social justice is defined as "... economic egalitarianism through progressive taxation, income redistribution, or even property redistribution..."

You need not take my word or beck's word. Google "social justice" for yourself and go to the web sites of those who espouse this fraud. They are extreme left wing political agitators.

You are either intentionally lying about your beliefs or a willfully naive fellow traveler, skelly.

youngterrier wrote:

native wrote:
No! No! No!

When Beck criticizes churches espousing "social justice," he is criticizing the corruption and abuse of the gospel to support partisan political means to accomplish forced wealth redistribution. Beck is NOT criticizing personal or church charity.

could of fooled me which is why he fails

Pay attention YT. Do some research on those who espouse "social justice" to see who they really are and what they really stand for. Just do the dammed homework.

youngterrier wrote:

native wrote:
No! No! No!

When Beck criticizes churches espousing "social justice," he is criticizing the corruption and abuse of the gospel to support partisan political means to accomplish forced wealth redistribution. Beck is NOT criticizing personal or church charity.

could of fooled me which is why he fails

Suspend your preconceived judgments and watch Beck for a week, YT. Catch him in a lie if you can. Challenge his assumptions, but not blindly - do the homework. Take notes and study what he says. Beck regularly espouses faith, hope and charity, as he did on today's program. It should repeat tonight. Take a look.

Skjellyfetti wrote:

Pwns wrote:But I think the term "social justice" pretty much implies government mandated generosity.

"pretty much implies"........ Hmmm. I think that means that your Conk radar goes off when you hear it and makes you think "government mandated generosity" when it could just as easily be "church encouraged generosity." You, native and Beck just choose to hear "government mandated generosity because you're borderline paranoid.

Nope. I think "government redistribution" because I do my damm homework, skelly.

catamount man wrote:http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2010 ... n-beck/?hp

He makes Bill Maher normal.

Even Michael Moore cannot make Bill Maher normal. Your inability to pay attention and rationally process information does not make Beck either abnormal or incorrect.

Which mind is being boggled today, CM?

Here's some homework for you, naive. From a much better source than Glenn Beck (who you believe we should study with a pen and paper ) and wikipedia

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/ponti ... oc_en.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There's a lot in that. Here's some gems in case it's overwhelming for you:

In this regard, in 1967, Pope Paul VI establishes the Pontifical Commission “Iustitia et Pax”, thus fulfilling the wishes of the Council Fathers who considered it “most opportune that an organism of the Universal Church be set up in order that both the justice and love of Christ toward the poor might be developed everywhere. The role of such an organism would be to stimulate the Catholic community to promote progress in needy regions and international social justice”[185]. By initiative of Pope Paul VI, beginning in 1968, the Church celebrates the first day of the year as the World Day of Peace. This same Pontiff started the tradition of writing annual Messages that deal with the theme chosen for each World Day of Peace. These Messages expand and enrich the corpus of the Church's social doctrine.

Instead of contributing through individual works of charity to maintaining the status quo, we need to build a just social order in which all receive their share of the world's goods and no longer have to depend on charity. It is true that the pursuit of justice must be a fundamental norm of the State and that the aim of a just social order is to guarantee to each person, according to the principle of subsidiarity, his share of the community's goods.

This has always been emphasized by Christian teaching on the State and by the Church's social doctrine. Historically, the issue of the just ordering of the collectivity had taken a new dimension with the industrialization of society in the nineteenth century. The rise of modern industry caused the old social structures to collapse, while the growth of a class of salaried workers provoked radical changes in the fabric of society. The relationship between capital and labour now became the decisive issue—an issue which in that form was previously unknown. Capital and the means of production were now the new source of power which, concentrated in the hands of a few, led to the suppression of the rights of the working classes, against which they had to rebel.

The just ordering of society and the State is a central responsibility of politics. As Augustine once said, a State which is not governed according to justice would be just a bunch of thieves: “Remota itaque iustitia quid sunt regna nisi magna latrocinia?”.[18] Fundamental to Christianity is the distinction between what belongs to Caesar and what belongs to God (cf. Mt 22:21), in other words, the distinction between Church and State, or, as the Second Vatican Council puts it, the autonomy of the temporal sphere.[19] The State may not impose religion, yet it must guarantee religious freedom and harmony between the followers of different religions. For her part, the Church, as the social expression of Christian faith, has a proper independence and is structured on the basis of her faith as a community which the State must recognize. The two spheres are distinct, yet always interrelated.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/bened ... st_en.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

etc. etc.

native wrote:

youngterrier wrote:
could of fooled me which is why he fails

Pay attention YT. Do some research on those who espouse "social justice" to see who they really are and what they really stand for. Just do the dammed homework.

you do your damned homework I'm tired of being talked down to as if I'm uneducated in this stuff

Beck is an embarrassment to the Libertarian Movement who goes on substance-less witch hunts against liberals. He is a propaganda machine in himself. He doesn't attack the issues, he attacks people and I can find plenty of inconsistencies with the "facts" he presents

native wrote:

youngterrier wrote:
could of fooled me which is why he fails

Suspend your preconceived judgments and watch Beck for a week, YT. Catch him in a lie if you can. Challenge his assumptions, but not blindly - do the homework. Take notes and study what he says. Beck regularly espouses faith, hope and charity, as he did on today's program. It should repeat tonight. Take a look.

oh please you act as if I haven't watched that crap before. I watched about 15-20 minutes of his show on education and all the crap he threw was based on over reactions...for goodness sake he said a poster about education was similar to that of communist propaganda....it was red and had a hand on it...screamed socialist agenda

literally 1/2 his show is him telling us our country is going down the tubes and liberals are fascists

NO FREAKING SUBSTANCE

youngterrier wrote:

native wrote:
Pay attention YT. Do some research on those who espouse "social justice" to see who they really are and what they really stand for. Just do the dammed homework.

you do your damned homework I'm tired of being talked down to as if I'm uneducated in this stuff

Beck is an embarrassment to the Libertarian Movement who goes on substance-less witch hunts against liberals. He is a propaganda machine in himself. He doesn't attack the issues, he attacks people and I can find plenty of inconsistencies with the "facts" he presents

OK. Find the factual inconsistencies. Share them. Share one. Go ahead.

Van Jones deserved Beck's criticisms, as did other members and former members of the Obama administration, as did Stalin, Mao and Che Guevarra. Can you name one person who Beck has criticized unjustly?

P.S. If you're tired, take a little nap.

Skjellyfetti wrote:Here's some homework for you, naive. From a much better source than Glenn Beck (who you believe we should study with a pen and paper ) and wikipedia

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/ponti ... oc_en.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There's a lot in that. Here's some gems in case it's overwhelming for you:

In this regard, in 1967, Pope Paul VI establishes the Pontifical Commission “Iustitia et Pax”, thus fulfilling the wishes of the Council Fathers who considered it “most opportune that an organism of the Universal Church be set up in order that both the justice and love of Christ toward the poor might be developed everywhere. The role of such an organism would be to stimulate the Catholic community to promote progress in needy regions and international social justice”[185]. By initiative of Pope Paul VI, beginning in 1968, the Church celebrates the first day of the year as the World Day of Peace. This same Pontiff started the tradition of writing annual Messages that deal with the theme chosen for each World Day of Peace. These Messages expand and enrich the corpus of the Church's social doctrine.

Instead of contributing through individual works of charity to maintaining the status quo, we need to build a just social order in which all receive their share of the world's goods and no longer have to depend on charity. It is true that the pursuit of justice must be a fundamental norm of the State and that the aim of a just social order is to guarantee to each person, according to the principle of subsidiarity, his share of the community's goods.

This has always been emphasized by Christian teaching on the State and by the Church's social doctrine. Historically, the issue of the just ordering of the collectivity had taken a new dimension with the industrialization of society in the nineteenth century. The rise of modern industry caused the old social structures to collapse, while the growth of a class of salaried workers provoked radical changes in the fabric of society. The relationship between capital and labour now became the decisive issue—an issue which in that form was previously unknown. Capital and the means of production were now the new source of power which, concentrated in the hands of a few, led to the suppression of the rights of the working classes, against which they had to rebel.

The just ordering of society and the State is a central responsibility of politics. As Augustine once said, a State which is not governed according to justice would be just a bunch of thieves: “Remota itaque iustitia quid sunt regna nisi magna latrocinia?”.[18] Fundamental to Christianity is the distinction between what belongs to Caesar and what belongs to God (cf. Mt 22:21), in other words, the distinction between Church and State, or, as the Second Vatican Council puts it, the autonomy of the temporal sphere.[19] The State may not impose religion, yet it must guarantee religious freedom and harmony between the followers of different religions. For her part, the Church, as the social expression of Christian faith, has a proper independence and is structured on the basis of her faith as a community which the State must recognize. The two spheres are distinct, yet always interrelated.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/bened ... st_en.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

etc. etc.

Great resource! Thanks for the link!

native wrote:

youngterrier wrote: you do your damned homework I'm tired of being talked down to as if I'm uneducated in this stuff

Beck is an embarrassment to the Libertarian Movement who goes on substance-less witch hunts against liberals. He is a propaganda machine in himself. He doesn't attack the issues, he attacks people and I can find plenty of inconsistencies with the "facts" he presents

OK. Find the factual inconsistencies. Share them. Share one. Go ahead.

Van Jones deserved Beck's criticisms, as did other members and former members of the Obama administration, as did Stalin, Mao and Che Guevarra. Can you name one person who Beck has criticized unjustly?

[youtube][/youtube]

[youtube][/youtube]

one of my favorites:
[youtube][/youtube]

the attacks on Jones are pure McCarthyism, the man said some pretty pro-capitalist things

Skjellyfetti wrote:Here's some homework for you, naive. From a much better source than Glenn Beck (who you believe we should study with a pen and paper ) and wikipedia

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/ponti ... oc_en.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There's a lot in that. Here's some gems in case it's overwhelming for you:

In this regard, in 1967, Pope Paul VI establishes the Pontifical Commission “Iustitia et Pax”, thus fulfilling the wishes of the Council Fathers who considered it “most opportune that an organism of the Universal Church be set up in order that both the justice and love of Christ toward the poor might be developed everywhere. The role of such an organism would be to stimulate the Catholic community to promote progress in needy regions and international social justice”[185]. By initiative of Pope Paul VI, beginning in 1968, the Church celebrates the first day of the year as the World Day of Peace. This same Pontiff started the tradition of writing annual Messages that deal with the theme chosen for each World Day of Peace. These Messages expand and enrich the corpus of the Church's social doctrine.

Instead of contributing through individual works of charity to maintaining the status quo, we need to build a just social order in which all receive their share of the world's goods and no longer have to depend on charity. It is true that the pursuit of justice must be a fundamental norm of the State and that the aim of a just social order is to guarantee to each person, according to the principle of subsidiarity, his share of the community's goods.

This has always been emphasized by Christian teaching on the State and by the Church's social doctrine. Historically, the issue of the just ordering of the collectivity had taken a new dimension with the industrialization of society in the nineteenth century. The rise of modern industry caused the old social structures to collapse, while the growth of a class of salaried workers provoked radical changes in the fabric of society. The relationship between capital and labour now became the decisive issue—an issue which in that form was previously unknown. Capital and the means of production were now the new source of power which, concentrated in the hands of a few, led to the suppression of the rights of the working classes, against which they had to rebel.

The just ordering of society and the State is a central responsibility of politics. As Augustine once said, a State which is not governed according to justice would be just a bunch of thieves: “Remota itaque iustitia quid sunt regna nisi magna latrocinia?”.[18] Fundamental to Christianity is the distinction between what belongs to Caesar and what belongs to God (cf. Mt 22:21), in other words, the distinction between Church and State, or, as the Second Vatican Council puts it, the autonomy of the temporal sphere.[19] The State may not impose religion, yet it must guarantee religious freedom and harmony between the followers of different religions. For her part, the Church, as the social expression of Christian faith, has a proper independence and is structured on the basis of her faith as a community which the State must recognize. The two spheres are distinct, yet always interrelated.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/bened ... st_en.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

etc. etc.

oh and this counts as something he didn't get his facts straight...and old people like you are the ones who need naps, you clearly get cranky when you're tired and things don't go your way, just remember you take the meds with the F on top because it's Friday

Here's another one:

[youtube][/youtube]

if I'm pretty sure our leaders didn't "choose to panic New Yorkers." heck, I don't think Obama knew...but I don't want to look up the story

I can do this all day (may not be inconsistencies but broad generalizations)

[youtube][/youtube]

why I don't like Glenn Beck

[youtube][/youtube]

youngterrier wrote:...and old people like you are the ones who need naps, you clearly get cranky when you're tired and things don't go your way, just remember you take the meds with the F on top because it's Friday

I don't do meds, YT, and I was not the one whining about being "tired."

To Young Terrier and Skellyfetti:

I appreciate your references to Catholic dogma, of which I was previously less aware than I am now that you have shared the references. Thank you.

I also accept your proposition - if I understand it correctly - that the term "social justice" can be used in different contexts and with different meaning than what Glenn Beck has suggested - specifically in Catholic dogma. I am not a Catholic, and I have not studied the entire dogma, so I cannot say that I agree or disagree with the dogma in its entirety, but I respect the reference provided, and I certainly respect the thoughts and writings of Saint Augustine.

However, I also respect and agree with the blunt and unmistakable criticisms and disavowals Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict have made of liberation theology, liberation theologists, and marxism. The warnings they have provided about the limitations and dangers of secular government redistributionist schemes, and the distinctions they have drawn between the earthly and spiritual meanings of the terms "justice" and "social justice" are at the heart of Glenn Beck's criticism and our disagreement on this thread. The most recent of many examples is to be found in Pope Benedict's Lent message for this year.

I don't expect anything but partisan attacks and attempted manipulations from skelly, YT, but from you I expect a great deal more. If I thought you recognized and understood these distinctions drawn by Popes John and Benedict, in the contextual and literal definitions and meanings of the terms "justice" and "social justice," I would try to stop nagging you. My frustration is not that you disagree with me, but that you apparently gloss over these important differences.

I could care less about what the exact definition of what social justice is, Glenn beck is a kook who shouldn't be taken seriously and that was my point throughout the thread