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Here's some fodder for discussion:

I'm in the process of awarding a facilities management contract. I usually award contracts for some real gee whiz shit involving some really niche electrical engineers, so I rarely see labor rates for jobs like "janitor".

Did you know: I am required by law (Service Contract Act) to allow a minimum labor charge of $22.17/hr for a janitor? This is just hourly wage, no overhead included. The only lower-paying job I could find for the specific schedule I'm viewing was "lampist" (whatever that is) for $20.82. HVAC mechanics are getting $58.65/hr on this contract.

Wow.

Where's the contract at?

Where I live that would be a great job. In DC I suppose it is not so great with higher living costs.

HI54UNI wrote:Where's the contract at?

Where I live that would be a great job. In DC I suppose it is not so great with higher living costs.

Yes, this is DC SCA rate. From 2008 actually. I don't have an updated schedule yet. I figure it's probably gone up about 6% by now.

I worked for a small sprinkler/landscaping company the summer after I graduated high school. For regular, private jobs I made I think $6.15 an hour. Then, the company got a gov't contract to replace the sprinkler systems in yards that had been contaminated by the lead smelter in East Helena. Made 24 bucks an hour to do the exact same shit.

The worst violations of labor rates I personally saw committed were by some of the larger construction firms from Philly/NJ/NY when I worked at Dover AFB. We'd go do an audit on Davis/Bacon rates at a construction site and you'd see guys scramble to put away tools as we rolled up. They would have guys doing skilled work that they were billing as laborers. Then we'd pull those guys aside for interviews, and there would always be a Sopranos-looking construction manager trying to stare them down. So then, we'd take them to a more isolated area and grill them. It was very tough to get them to admit they were being paid less than the job classification they were actually performing. Sometimes we'd take pictures first and then pull onto the site. The shame of it all is that whenever we issued a restitution letter to the company, we'd never see those workers again.

93henfan wrote:The worst violations of labor rates I personally saw committed were by some of the larger construction firms from Philly/NJ/NY when I worked at Dover AFB. We'd go do an audit on Davis/Bacon rates at a construction site and you'd see guys scramble to put away tools as we rolled up. They would have guys doing skilled work that they were billing as laborers. Then we'd pull those guys aside for interviews, and there would always be a Sopranos-looking construction manager trying to stare them down. So then, we'd take them to a more isolated area and grill them. It was very tough to get them to admit they were being paid less than the job classification they were actually performing. Sometimes we'd take pictures first and then pull onto the site. The shame of it all is that whenever we issued a restitution letter to the company, we'd never see those workers again.

This was really my area of expertise when I did software development. Coast to coast...I not only trained companies in labor compliance, I gave seminars for govt. agencies and local builder's organizations.

What's fascinating is that most of this information is available online, yet few people are aware of Davis-Bacon requirements. Never seen the feds get too upset over violations, but regionally, there are some govt. agency "republics" that hammer their contractors.
And in some places (Texas, MS, NV...) enforcement is (defacto) non-existent. I had a TX based, national "plant maintenance" company, whose workers did millwright work (precision machining, welding, etc...) on federal fuel facilities. Their work was EXTREMELY dangerous, and two workers had been killed during the prior 5 years (one of which the company lost a wrongful death civil action), yet the wage classification used was "Janitorial", $8.72/hr, and likewise, they were categorized janitorial for W/C. Everyone knew what was going on, especially the feds who never spoke up, but regionally, attitudes towards wages has extreme variation.

btw...I mentioned that situation to a general contractor out on Long Island, and everyone in the room went silent and turned white.

Just a sidebar...

...the labor rate for Laborer Group II through IV, and Operator Group 2 through 8 (roadwork trades) in the District are FAR LOWER than the surrounding region.

Who'd a thunk?

T-Man, you're absolutely right about the various levels of enforcement in various offices and regions. I can assure you that the Air Force (at least in AMC) was diligent in its enforcement. We referred countless violations to DOL. Now, if you want to point a finger at people that are lax, DOL is one such place. We would try to circumvent them as much as possible with our local restitution procedures. If the worker still had an issue, we'd then refer them to DOL. The results with DOL were less than stellar on many occasions. We'd often check in with them six months after reporting an issue and they still hadn't begun pursuing the case.

I'm happy that those days are behind me, as I now handle primarily $1B+ engineering support cost-type contracts where the auditors at DCAA do 99.9% of that kind of legwork.

travelinman67 wrote:

93henfan wrote:The worst violations of labor rates I personally saw committed were by some of the larger construction firms from Philly/NJ/NY when I worked at Dover AFB. We'd go do an audit on Davis/Bacon rates at a construction site and you'd see guys scramble to put away tools as we rolled up. They would have guys doing skilled work that they were billing as laborers. Then we'd pull those guys aside for interviews, and there would always be a Sopranos-looking construction manager trying to stare them down. So then, we'd take them to a more isolated area and grill them. It was very tough to get them to admit they were being paid less than the job classification they were actually performing. Sometimes we'd take pictures first and then pull onto the site. The shame of it all is that whenever we issued a restitution letter to the company, we'd never see those workers again.

This was really my area of expertise when I did software development. Coast to coast...I not only trained companies in labor compliance, I gave seminars for govt. agencies and local builder's organizations.

What's fascinating is that most of this information is available online, yet few people are aware of Davis-Bacon requirements. Never seen the feds get too upset over violations, but regionally, there are some govt. agency "republics" that hammer their contractors.
And in some places (Texas, MS, NV...) enforcement is (defacto) non-existent. I had a TX based, national "plant maintenance" company, whose workers did millwright work (precision machining, welding, etc...) on federal fuel facilities. Their work was EXTREMELY dangerous, and two workers had been killed during the prior 5 years (one of which the company lost a wrongful death civil action), yet the wage classification used was "Janitorial", $8.72/hr, and likewise, they were categorized janitorial for W/C. Everyone knew what was going on, especially the feds who never spoke up, but regionally, attitudes towards wages has extreme variation.

btw...I mentioned that situation to a general contractor out on Long Island, and everyone in the room went silent and turned white.

Just a sidebar...

...the labor rate for Laborer Group II through IV, and Operator Group 2 through 8 (roadwork trades) in the District are FAR LOWER than the surrounding region.

Who'd a thunk?

...all of which leads me to believe that there is some happy midde ground where we impose legitimate labor laws and enforce them equitably.

native wrote: ...all of which leads me to believe that there is some happy midde ground where we impose legitimate labor laws and enforce them equitably.

Most complex issue facing every social order. Unions/Corporate extremists only represent 20% +/- of the equation. What's harmful is the disparity between Davis/Bacon (Union) and fair wage for local labor. Not all unions are out there...I've worked with some in the midwest/south, that recognize they've priced themselves (members) out of jobs, and have voluntarily negotiated wage/benefit concessions. Likewise with non-public corporate mgmt. The obvious killer for corp. America has been the traded BOD's allow dividends to control policy, as has been the case the past 25 years (long term sacrifice-short term gain...the exact opposite of growth policy). While that seems like a simpleton overview, the voices with the ability to bring change (shareholders/investors/union leaders) STILL fuel the frenzy...

...even with our GDP collapsing.

Neither side is willing to negotiate to break the logjam.

Years ago, I told some zealous young Laborer's local executive board president that he and his cohorts needed a good ass whupping out back...he was left speechless. We talked a bit and I tried explaining the long-term ramifications of expansive CBA's, yet he was incapable of either acknowledging or understanding alternative views. The fact I had founded a union, made no difference. He didn't perceive me as anti-union; he was genuinely blind to win-win negotiations.

Anytime I hear the trite argument citing 10% union representation, I point out the union wage agreements as a rule control the Davis/Bacon wage decisions, and hence, every govt. contract in the U.S.

Unions blow dick.

travelinman67 wrote:

native wrote: ...all of which leads me to believe that there is some happy midde ground where we impose legitimate labor laws and enforce them equitably.

Most complex issue facing every social order. Unions/Corporate extremists only represent 20% +/- of the equation. What's harmful is the disparity between Davis/Bacon (Union) and fair wage for local labor. Not all unions are out there...I've worked with some in the midwest/south, that recognize they've priced themselves (members) out of jobs, and have voluntarily negotiated wage/benefit concessions. Likewise with non-public corporate mgmt. The obvious killer for corp. America has been the traded BOD's allow dividends to control policy, as has been the case the past 25 years (long term sacrifice-short term gain...the exact opposite of growth policy). While that seems like a simpleton overview, the voices with the ability to bring change (shareholders/investors/union leaders) STILL fuel the frenzy...

...even with our GDP collapsing.

Neither side is willing to negotiate to break the logjam.

Years ago, I told some zealous young Laborer's local executive board president that he and his cohorts needed a good ass whupping out back...he was left speechless. We talked a bit and I tried explaining the long-term ramifications of expansive CBA's, yet he was incapable of either acknowledging or understanding alternative views. The fact I had founded a union, made no difference. He didn't perceive me as anti-union; he was genuinely blind to win-win negotiations.

Anytime I hear the trite argument citing 10% union representation, I point out the union wage agreements as a rule control the Davis/Bacon wage decisions, and hence, every govt. contract in the U.S.

I think that argument is typically made in regards to campaign finance and Democrats beholden to to big labor.

And while I agree that government can't afford exorbitant wages - especially now - in the grander scheme of things, the wealth gap has grown tremendously, but wages are what creates demand - espcecially since we've off shored manufacturing and rely upon the service sector more now.

Why can't the same country that has created immense wealth at the top not afford a solid wage for its janitors?

Government should not be telling anybody what they pay people who agree to work for them, period. And when government contracts work and insists on telling those who want the contracts that they have to pay certain amounts, they are costing taxpayers money. They are spending more money than is really necessary to spend.

An employer/employee relationship is a free association. Nobody has to take a job if they don't think it pays enough.

JohnStOnge wrote:Government should not be telling anybody what they pay people who agree to work for them, period. And when government contracts work and insists on telling those who want the contracts that they have to pay certain amounts, they are costing taxpayers money. They are spending more money than is really necessary to spend.

An employer/employee relationship is a free association. Nobody has to take a job if they don't think it pays enough.

Excellent. Now if you can get Congress to agree to it...